Al Bundy;572571 wrote:Do you feel that Big Red has a big advantage since they seem to attract kids from other districts (even other states)? Or are the kids attracted to Big Red because of the winning tradition and the increased chance of getting a college scholarship? I don't doubt that kids and families are attracted to good programs, but the good programs can be private or public.

Yes I agree with these points

Y-Town Steelhound;572681 wrote:I'm still waiting for the separatists to explain how to tell their son he doesn't deserve the right to compete for a true state championship because mommy and daddy stepped in. You don't see the kids complaining, they just want to compete.

Tell that to Maple Heights fans that they can't compete for a 'true state championship' because they don't get to play Hilliard Davidson. By what metric do we determine Maple Heights is incapable of playing bigger schools just because they may be a few students away from an arbitrary cutoff point?

We already split up schools based on size, right? If we didn't have divisions and let's say year after year big school after big school wins the title. But once every decade or so a little school may have a tremendous earth-shattering season and compete for the title, maybe even win it. But the vast majority of time the little guy gets the snot kicked out of them. Wouldn't, over time, you see a disparity and understand there is a discrepancy in the ability of the teams and feel the need to either separate them or at least adjust the teams to be more competitive amongst themselves?

Everyone arguing against a potential public/private split (or at the very least a multiplier) should be in favor of eliminating all divisions and having one big pool for all the teams to enter into. After all, it's fair. The big schools didn't do anything unfair to get their advantage. They just are what they are? Right?

When a small percentage of teams, any teams, win an overwhelming number of titles disparate from their percentage of the total pool, you have to see it and figure out what advantage do they have, why, and how do you level it? Otherwise, the divisions in Ohio are nothing more than bumpkis. The whole point of the smaller divisions was to give smaller schools a chance. A D5 in a big city, either OE or parochial, has a big POTENTIAL advantage compared to a rural public D5 that may have or may not have OE.

Now, the issue about Open Enrollment and the Great Satan that some see Big Red as...

Open-Enrollment or not, there's some kids that Steubenville MUST take in. Whether they want to or not. Those piss-poor students must be counted as part of the population when determining division. A pothead with a 0.1 GPA that misses a third of his classes still counts at any public school out there. If that were a parochial school, I'm sure they wouldn't waste money trying to teach him unless his parents were loaded. Neither would an OE school if he wasn't their default high school. They have to take the delinquents. They have to take special needs. They have to take ALL of the poorest of the poor. They have to take the unteachable. The ne'er-do-wells. The future prison inmates. They have no choice. The state requires them to try. There's no law that a parochial school must take a student. Any student. For any reason they can choose to no longer teach a student and punt them back to the public school in their home district.

The POTENTIALITY of students for any school is the size of the school and the ability of the faculty to teach/administer them. The REALITY of it is the public school must take the students they're required to take. Whether the school is crowded or not. Whether the student is good or not. Whether the student is wealthy or dirt poor. Whether they're good at anything or horrible at everything. They must. There is no choice to the school. A private school CAN take a student, or they cannot. Sure, they wouldn't want to pass up the money if the parents are paying. But there's a limit to the ability to draw students. Even if they can take vouchers from the public school, a bad student is a bad student is a bad student. They don't HAVE to take them if they realize they're a problem child.

My proposal has always been the same and it covers OE and non-OE schools. Parochials and publics.

If you get a student from your district, they count 1x1. If you get a student from outside your district, they count 1x2. If you're a public school in a district with multiple high schools, the district must be divvied up for all the high schools and the 'sub district' would be used (the boundary lines would be used for all sports, not sport-specific). If you're a private/parochial, your 'base' is attached to the public district or subdistrict that your physical high school building resides in and, as with the publics, every student from that district (or subdistrict) would count 1x1. If they're from outside that district or subdistrict, they count 1x2.


Example, if you have 252 male students, 9-11. 219 are from your district (or subdistrict), they count as 219. The 33 non-district students count twice, or 66. 219+66=285. That is your enrollment number for the rankings. If another school has 255 male students, 9-11 and has 55 from their district (or subdistrict) and 200 from outside their district (or subdistrict), their enrollment total would be 455.

Draw from outside your geographic base, you're only adjustment is for students you actually bring in from outside your base. OE or Parochial, if all your students are local, they all count 1x1.

Although, because the numbers fluctuate year-to-year, they would need to adjust the numbers every year (or at least the # of non-local students). It could fluctuate far more wildly than the influx of incoming or outgoing population.


Two other things that could fix this is what Pennsylvania allows, and that is you to play up to any division above you that you want. There'd be no excuse for really great lower schools from playing up (and thereby taking a spot from the lowest teams in the division, if they themselves choose not to play up).

For instance, after the divisions are set preliminarily, they're given to the schools and asked "Which division do you want to play in?" The caveat being they can't be lower than the division initially assigned. A D5 wants to play in D2, they're in D2. They can't drop. A D3 says D1, they're D1. They're playing up. They count as D1, their playing participation is D1.

Many prime examples in Pennsylvania. Harrisburg Bishop McDevitt is a Class A (smallest) school, but play up to AAAA, because they're a private school that does very well and wants to compete with the teams that actually challenge them. They could run roughshod over Class A every year, but they choose to play in a class that they haven't won a title yet, despite making deep playoff runs. Why? Because that's their competition level. They're that good. Pittsburgh City League teams generally play up from AA to AAA and AAA to AAAA to even out their league and make the whole league half AAA and half AAAAA (in years past, recently they've decided the smaller schools will just play as AA instead).

Ohio's hardline on enrollment creates midget behemoths, that are great schools but can never prove it on the field. Meanwhile, the truly little guys in the state are thwarted at the prospect of playing schools they shouldn't have any business playing.

Sykotyk

Y-Town Steelhound;572681 wrote:I'm still waiting for the separatists to explain how to tell their son he doesn't deserve the right to compete for a true state championship because mommy and daddy stepped in. You don't see the kids complaining, they just want to compete.

Not necessarily a "separtist", but maybe they tell their son that he NOW has a chance to play for true state championship, because the school that got the Ryan boys from Westlake....and the Parris boys from Olmstead Falls....and the Massey boys from Brecksville....and Hovan from Rocky River....Has joined a seperate (but equal) division.

^^^^^^^ Outstanding work Sykotyk........ That is the most intelligent rebuttle on this thread and should be thought about.

skank;573192 wrote:Not necessarily a "separtist", but maybe they tell their son that he NOW has a chance to play for true state championship, because the school that got the Ryan boys from Westlake....and the Parris boys from Olmstead Falls....and the Massey boys from Brecksville....and Hovan from Rocky River....Has joined a seperate (but equal) division.

Would schools that get players from other states also have to be separated?

I respect Harrisburg Bishop Mcdevitt for playing up ..That is honorable..I doubt many schools would follow that principle though,but it is a good story .

Al Bundy;573206 wrote:Would schools that get players from other states also have to be separated?

So, you wanted Mr. Kempt to turn down his transfer to the Ohio Diebold plant? Nice.

Al Bundy;573206 wrote:Would schools that get players from other states also have to be separated?

BTW, if this^^^^were the case, Mooney would have to play in Division I AA at the collegiate level.

skank;573221 wrote:So, you wanted Mr. Kempt to turn down his transfer to the Ohio Diebold plant? Nice.

Not at all. Every family should be able to do what is in their best interest.

skank;573225 wrote:BTW, if this^^^^were the case, Mooney would have to play in Division I AA at the collegiate level.

Who does Mooney have from another state?

skank;573192 wrote:Not necessarily a "separtist", but maybe they tell their son that he NOW has a chance to play for true state championship, because the school that got the Ryan boys from Westlake....and the Parris boys from Olmstead Falls....and the Massey boys from Brecksville....and Hovan from Rocky River....Has joined a seperate (but equal) division.

You forgot to mention the boys that transferred from McKinley

Oh, wait, that's your school, so it's OK

That's why know one pays attention to you. Your words are empty because you're a "do as I say, not as I do" guy

Plus your about the most jealous person ever to post on here

Al Bundy;573234 wrote:Not at all. Every family should be able to do what is in their best interest.

Only, some families, namely little Johnnies, have to pay 7-10 thousand dollars to "do what is in their best interest". But, little Stanleys family pays nothing because he has the potential to be 6'3" 240 Lbs, and run a 4.3 40. doing what's in your families "best interest", is easier for some people now, isn't it?

skank;573247 wrote:Only, some families, namely little Johnnies, have to pay 7-10 thousand dollars to "do what is in their best interest". But, little Stanleys family pays nothing because he has the potential to be 6'3" 240 Lbs, and run a 4.3 40. doing what's in your families "best interest", is easier for some people now, isn't it?

How much does Massillon charge their recr......er......open enrollment students?

Sykotyk;573181 wrote:

My proposal has always been the same and it covers OE and non-OE schools. Parochials and publics.

If you get a student from your district, they count 1x1. If you get a student from outside your district, they count 1x2. If you're a public school in a district with multiple high schools, the district must be divvied up for all the high schools and the 'sub district' would be used (the boundary lines would be used for all sports, not sport-specific). If you're a private/parochial, your 'base' is attached to the public district or subdistrict that your physical high school building resides in and, as with the publics, every student from that district (or subdistrict) would count 1x1. If they're from outside that district or subdistrict, they count 1x2.


Example, if you have 252 male students, 9-11. 219 are from your district (or subdistrict), they count as 219. The 33 non-district students count twice, or 66. 219+66=285. That is your enrollment number for the rankings. If another school has 255 male students, 9-11 and has 55 from their district (or subdistrict) and 200 from outside their district (or subdistrict), their enrollment total would be 455.

Draw from outside your geographic base, you're only adjustment is for students you actually bring in from outside your base. OE or Parochial, if all your students are local, they all count 1x1.

Although, because the numbers fluctuate year-to-year, they would need to adjust the numbers every year (or at least the # of non-local students). It could fluctuate far more wildly than the influx of incoming or outgoing population.


Two other things that could fix this is what Pennsylvania allows, and that is you to play up to any division above you that you want. There'd be no excuse for really great lower schools from playing up (and thereby taking a spot from the lowest teams in the division, if they themselves choose not to play up).

For instance, after the divisions are set preliminarily, they're given to the schools and asked "Which division do you want to play in?" The caveat being they can't be lower than the division initially assigned. A D5 wants to play in D2, they're in D2. They can't drop. A D3 says D1, they're D1. They're playing up. They count as D1, their playing participation is D1.

Many prime examples in Pennsylvania. Harrisburg Bishop McDevitt is a Class A (smallest) school, but play up to AAAA, because they're a private school that does very well and wants to compete with the teams that actually challenge them. They could run roughshod over Class A every year, but they choose to play in a class that they haven't won a title yet, despite making deep playoff runs. Why? Because that's their competition level. They're that good. Pittsburgh City League teams generally play up from AA to AAA and AAA to AAAA to even out their league and make the whole league half AAA and half AAAAA (in years past, recently they've decided the smaller schools will just play as AA instead).

Ohio's hardline on enrollment creates midget behemoths, that are great schools but can never prove it on the field. Meanwhile, the truly little guys in the state are thwarted at the prospect of playing schools they shouldn't have any business playing.

Sykotyk

Outstanding POST!!!!!
The best solution I have seen.
It covers both Private and Open Enrollment. Plus gives power schools the option to play up.
I like it!!!

Sykotyk;573181 wrote:Tell that to Maple Heights fans that they can't compete for a 'true state championship' because they don't get to play Hilliard Davidson. By what metric do we determine Maple Heights is incapable of playing bigger schools just because they may be a few students away from an arbitrary cutoff point?

We already split up schools based on size, right? If we didn't have divisions and let's say year after year big school after big school wins the title. But once every decade or so a little school may have a tremendous earth-shattering season and compete for the title, maybe even win it. But the vast majority of time the little guy gets the snot kicked out of them. Wouldn't, over time, you see a disparity and understand there is a discrepancy in the ability of the teams and feel the need to either separate them or at least adjust the teams to be more competitive amongst themselves?

Everyone arguing against a potential public/private split (or at the very least a multiplier) should be in favor of eliminating all divisions and having one big pool for all the teams to enter into. After all, it's fair. The big schools didn't do anything unfair to get their advantage. They just are what they are? Right?

When a small percentage of teams, any teams, win an overwhelming number of titles disparate from their percentage of the total pool, you have to see it and figure out what advantage do they have, why, and how do you level it? Otherwise, the divisions in Ohio are nothing more than bumpkis. The whole point of the smaller divisions was to give smaller schools a chance. A D5 in a big city, either OE or parochial, has a big POTENTIAL advantage compared to a rural public D5 that may have or may not have OE.

Now, the issue about Open Enrollment and the Great Satan that some see Big Red as...

Open-Enrollment or not, there's some kids that Steubenville MUST take in. Whether they want to or not. Those piss-poor students must be counted as part of the population when determining division. A pothead with a 0.1 GPA that misses a third of his classes still counts at any public school out there. If that were a parochial school, I'm sure they wouldn't waste money trying to teach him unless his parents were loaded. Neither would an OE school if he wasn't their default high school. They have to take the delinquents. They have to take special needs. They have to take ALL of the poorest of the poor. They have to take the unteachable. The ne'er-do-wells. The future prison inmates. They have no choice. The state requires them to try. There's no law that a parochial school must take a student. Any student. For any reason they can choose to no longer teach a student and punt them back to the public school in their home district.

The POTENTIALITY of students for any school is the size of the school and the ability of the faculty to teach/administer them. The REALITY of it is the public school must take the students they're required to take. Whether the school is crowded or not. Whether the student is good or not. Whether the student is wealthy or dirt poor. Whether they're good at anything or horrible at everything. They must. There is no choice to the school. A private school CAN take a student, or they cannot. Sure, they wouldn't want to pass up the money if the parents are paying. But there's a limit to the ability to draw students. Even if they can take vouchers from the public school, a bad student is a bad student is a bad student. They don't HAVE to take them if they realize they're a problem child.

My proposal has always been the same and it covers OE and non-OE schools. Parochials and publics.

If you get a student from your district, they count 1x1. If you get a student from outside your district, they count 1x2. If you're a public school in a district with multiple high schools, the district must be divvied up for all the high schools and the 'sub district' would be used (the boundary lines would be used for all sports, not sport-specific). If you're a private/parochial, your 'base' is attached to the public district or subdistrict that your physical high school building resides in and, as with the publics, every student from that district (or subdistrict) would count 1x1. If they're from outside that district or subdistrict, they count 1x2.


Example, if you have 252 male students, 9-11. 219 are from your district (or subdistrict), they count as 219. The 33 non-district students count twice, or 66. 219+66=285. That is your enrollment number for the rankings. If another school has 255 male students, 9-11 and has 55 from their district (or subdistrict) and 200 from outside their district (or subdistrict), their enrollment total would be 455.

Draw from outside your geographic base, you're only adjustment is for students you actually bring in from outside your base. OE or Parochial, if all your students are local, they all count 1x1.

Although, because the numbers fluctuate year-to-year, they would need to adjust the numbers every year (or at least the # of non-local students). It could fluctuate far more wildly than the influx of incoming or outgoing population.


Two other things that could fix this is what Pennsylvania allows, and that is you to play up to any division above you that you want. There'd be no excuse for really great lower schools from playing up (and thereby taking a spot from the lowest teams in the division, if they themselves choose not to play up).

For instance, after the divisions are set preliminarily, they're given to the schools and asked "Which division do you want to play in?" The caveat being they can't be lower than the division initially assigned. A D5 wants to play in D2, they're in D2. They can't drop. A D3 says D1, they're D1. They're playing up. They count as D1, their playing participation is D1.

Many prime examples in Pennsylvania. Harrisburg Bishop McDevitt is a Class A (smallest) school, but play up to AAAA, because they're a private school that does very well and wants to compete with the teams that actually challenge them. They could run roughshod over Class A every year, but they choose to play in a class that they haven't won a title yet, despite making deep playoff runs. Why? Because that's their competition level. They're that good. Pittsburgh City League teams generally play up from AA to AAA and AAA to AAAA to even out their league and make the whole league half AAA and half AAAAA (in years past, recently they've decided the smaller schools will just play as AA instead).

Ohio's hardline on enrollment creates midget behemoths, that are great schools but can never prove it on the field. Meanwhile, the truly little guys in the state are thwarted at the prospect of playing schools they shouldn't have any business playing.

Sykotyk

I honestly don't hate that idea. I guarantee you would see a lot of schools decide to play up...both public and private. Thanks for reasonably and rationally talking about this.

The only issue I have with your post is this paragraph:

When a small percentage of teams, any teams, win an overwhelming number of titles disparate from their percentage of the total pool, you have to see it and figure out what advantage do they have, why, and how do you level it? Otherwise, the divisions in Ohio are nothing more than bumpkis. The whole point of the smaller divisions was to give smaller schools a chance. A D5 in a big city, either OE or parochial, has a big POTENTIAL advantage compared to a rural public D5 that may have or may not have OE.

First of all...a small percentage of the total pool on both sides have won titles. I posted the numbers earlier...the titles won by a private schools account for around 4% of the total number of schools. The public schools that have won titles account for only 8% of the total pool. What those numbers mean to me...is that PROGRAMS win the titles. Whether the school is private or public, a school that is consistently good continues to do good.
Secondly, D5 and D6 schools that win titles...more often than not...are small rural public schools. Sure Newark Catholic (a small rural private school) and Delphos St. John (a small rural private) have won some titles. But teams like St. Henry (a small rural public), Coldwater, Versailles, and Maria Stein Marion Local generally DOMINATE those divisions. If you expand that to D4 to include the three smaller divisions that people mainly point to as the divisions where private schools have the most advantage...public schools fair even better. Those four public schools I mentioned...they account for 17 State Championships across divisions 4-6. In those same divisions, Mooney, Ursuline, Newark Catholic, and Delphos St. John account for 18. Seems pretty even to me.
I honestly don't care what they do with the playoffs. I am not in high school anymore, and I know that Mooney will play in whatever division they are told to and will strap up the chinstrap and do the best they can to win every game. I just get tired of people spreading misinformation about how unfair the privates have it in the smaller divisions.

Strong programs will always be strong programs. Steubenville will always field a good team because they are good year in and year out and kids want to go there. Mooney will always field a good team because they are good year in and year out. Coldwater will always field a good team because they are good year in and year out.

There is not a lot of disparity between private schools and public schools. But there is a lot of disparity between the top teams in Ohio year after year, and the teams that are not consistently top teams year after year.

This thread is a joke. Its all people wo have favorite teams that used to be great! against all of these private schools..
But now a few private schools ahve a few good years and everyone wants them out!
And sure a few kids from under privillaged houses dont pay as much as others do, but hmm geee idk there's something called financial aid?
WOULD YOU WANT YOUR KID TO GO TO A YOUNGSTOWN CITY SCHOOL IF YOU COULD AVOID IT?
NO!!!!!!!!
So have fun crying and complaining, Its hilarious.

skank;573192 wrote:Not necessarily a "separtist", but maybe they tell their son that he NOW has a chance to play for true state championship, because the school that got the Ryan boys from Westlake....and the Parris boys from Olmstead Falls....and the Massey boys from Brecksville....and Hovan from Rocky River....Has joined a seperate (but equal) division.

"Son, I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but you just don't have what it takes to complete with the best. We're losers, son".

Nice message. If you whine about "fair", you are a loser. There are no exceptions to this rule.

queencitybuckeye;573593 wrote:"Son, I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but you just don't have what it takes to complete with the best. We're losers, son".

Nice message. If you whine about "fair", you are a loser. There are no exceptions to this rule.

Bingo.

fish82, that's all well and good, but if you have 516 students, you're D2. If you have 518 students, you're D1. Tell the students in D2 that they can't 'compete with the best' then as well simply because two families 16 years ago decided not to have more children.

Sykotyk

Sykotyk;573636 wrote:fish82, that's all well and good, but if you have 516 students, you're D2. If you have 518 students, you're D1. Tell the students in D2 that they can't 'compete with the best' then as well simply because two families 16 years ago decided not to have more children.

Sykotyk

Personally, I'm all for teams being able to voluntarily choosing to play up any number of divisions they want.

Funny how the private school fans talk down at those that question the system as it is. You throw out "beat the best to be the best" and "stop whining" and "tell your kids they are losers because they can't compete". But for some reason you don't want to live up to those standards yourselves. Every parent at lower division privates should be telling their kids they are losers because they can't compete at D1 level. Every lower division private should KNOW they are not the best because they have not beaten the best. Every lower division private needs to stop the hypocritical whining. Wawww don't change anything, whawww we don't want to move up divisions, wawww we shouldn't have to compete with 1000 student D1 schools that have a bigger student pool, wawww.

No exception to the rules huh. Move all privates to D1 (got to beat the best to be the best right), plus little Johnny privates parents never have to tell him he is a loser then right, wait for it... wait for it... wait for it... as soon as Ursuline and the like go 10-20 years without winning anything all the Irish whiners will be crying the loudest guaranteed!!!

tsst_fballfan;573682 wrote:Funny how the private school fans talk down at those that question the system as it is. You throw out "beat the best to be the best" and "stop whining" and "tell your kids they are losers because they can't compete". But for some reason you don't want to live up to those standards yourselves.

If your comments are in part aimed at me, you got it completely wrong. I'm a pubic school guy. We just choose at our school to play the teams put on the other side regardless of funding method. It works out pretty well, as the trophy case attests. Your mileage cleary varies.

Spread All Day;573418 wrote:This thread is a joke. Its all people wo have favorite teams that used to be great! against all of these private schools..
But now a few private schools ahve a few good years and everyone wants them out!
And sure a few kids from under privillaged houses dont pay as much as others do, but hmm geee idk there's something called financial aid?
WOULD YOU WANT YOUR KID TO GO TO A YOUNGSTOWN CITY SCHOOL IF YOU COULD AVOID IT?
NO!!!!!!!!
So have fun crying and complaining, Its hilarious.

It seems to be a valid argument in several other states

tsst_fballfan;573682 wrote:Funny how the private school fans talk down at those that question the system as it is. You throw out "beat the best to be the best" and "stop whining" and "tell your kids they are losers because they can't compete". But for some reason you don't want to live up to those standards yourselves. Every parent at lower division privates should be telling their kids they are losers because they can't compete at D1 level. Every lower division private should KNOW they are not the best because they have not beaten the best. Every lower division private needs to stop the hypocritical whining. Wawww don't change anything, whawww we don't want to move up divisions, wawww we shouldn't have to compete with 1000 student D1 schools that have a bigger student pool, wawww.

No exception to the rules huh. Move all privates to D1 (got to beat the best to be the best right), plus little Johnny privates parents never have to tell him he is a loser then right, wait for it... wait for it... wait for it... as soon as Ursuline and the like go 10-20 years without winning anything all the Irish whiners will be crying the loudest guaranteed!!!

That is rational behavior on your part .

queencitybuckeye;573717 wrote:If your comments are in part aimed at me, you got it completely wrong. I'm a pubic school guy. We just choose at our school to play the teams put on the other side regardless of funding method. It works out pretty well, as the trophy case attests. Your mileage cleary varies.

I am in the same situation as you ,but I am looking at other schools who clearly are in an unfair disadvantage... Kirtland for instance