Another good article by Andrew McCarthy:

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/244349/which-islam-will-prevail-america-andrew-c-mccarthy

At one point he refers to American Muslims who would not (or could not) cooperate with him and other prosecutors because they could not be guaranteed assurance that their cooperation would be confidential. In other words, they were worried they and their families would be ostracized by the larger Muslim community.

Mind you, they wanted to help. They were as offended as anyone by what the terrorists had done. These folks were Americans. They were the kind of Muslims you’re never exposed to, given the media’s preference for jihad apologists who, when not applauding him, claim Osama bin Laden was “made in the U.S.A.” But the would-be translators wanted ironclad assurance that their assistance to the prosecution would be kept confidential. It was an assurance I was not in a position to give, so they politely declined.

Here’s the most depressing part: It wasn’t really a matter of safety. There was surely some element of that — it goes with the territory in terrorism cases. But these people were mostly worried that they and their families would be ostracized in their communities as traitors to Islam.

In Muslim communities, I learned, many people — especially American Muslims — were supportive of our investigations. Of course they didn’t like the light of suspicion being shined on Muslims, not any more than Italian Americans liked the attention our mafia cases thrust on their communities. Yet they tuned out the CAIR chorus, just as most sensible people tune out the grievance industry. They reserved most of their resentment for the malevolent, anti-American actors in their midst. They understood that public safety is the government’s highest obligation. As long as they could do it quietly, they were willing to help.

Whether Ground Zero mosque proponents realize it or not, the cause they are advancing — against the will of the American people, and, perversely, under the guise of “religious freedom” — is the Islamist cause. It is the Brotherhood, not American Muslims, insisting that this monument must be imposed on this sacred spot.

It is a “considerable comfort,” Mr. Stephens writes, “to know that there are Muslims in the U.S. like Irshad who are working, tirelessly but mainly out of view, toward the cause of reform. They could use more support and recognition.” But, of course, their tireless work must happen “out of view,” because the Islamists have made it too dangerous for them to work openly. And they are denied support and recognition because the post-American ruling class has made its bed with sharia salesmen like Rauf, who blame America for 9/11 and can’t bring themselves to say Hamas is a terrorist organization.

For the 999th time, we need to find out more about this Rauf guy, why this spot in NYC is where "the mosque must be built", and who's paying for it.

Bigdogg;457726 wrote:Why don't you educate all of us on here with your superior knowledge then?

You don't need superior knowledge to see your comparison of the this mosque controversy to kristalnacht as total bullshit. Just a basic knowledge of history and a little common sense is all it takes.

On this night, Germans citizens and SA (mostly SA) damaged (or destroyed) 1574 synagogues, many Jewish cemeteries, 7500 Jewish shops, 29 department stores. Some Jews were beaten to death, while others were forced to watch. The conservative estimate is that 91 people suffered violent deaths. More than 30000 Jewish men were arrested and sent to concentration camps.
http://naziwarcrimes.wordpress.com/2008/01/24/kristallnacht-night-of-broken-glass/

Sound anything remotely like what is going on today?

The morning show I usually listen to came up with a top 5 list for muslims, catholics and jews (things that would piss them off) who want to build near Ground Zero.

Top 5 things to build to piss off the muslims
5. a Hustler magazine printing press
4. Bob Ney Freedom Fry stand
3. Saddam Hussein pinata
2. headquarters of the bomb squad
1. statue of Toby Keith

Jews
5. parking meters that take pennies only
4. a store with no discounts
3. statue of Mel Gibson
2. Volkswagen dealership
1. Heavenly Ham

Catholics
5. "Nuns Gone Wild" video store
4. an art store feature 2 guys spooning*
3. abortion clinic
2. condom machine
1. sex-abuse counselling for alter boys only

There. That should make alot of people lighten up a little bit, or totally disgust them, depending on their humor spectrum.
* host of show named two local guys whose names aren't relevant here
........................................

Unfortunately, no matter how you look at it, one thing is going to happen. And that is that there will be people, who are really good people, that will be disappointed and frustrated no matter what. If the mosque/community center gets built or not, there will be hard feelings either way. It's a sad and unfortunate situation no matter how you look at it or how you feel about it.

I cannot blame people who don't want it built, don't get me wrong. Just because I don't have a problem with it personally doesn't mean that I can't see where other people are coming from - and to some degree, I actually think their feelings are justified at the end of the day. The good thing, that has already been pointed out, is that if the mosque/cc gets built, it's going to be watched with hawklike precision from within and without by various sources.

I also see the point of the people who stand by American standards no matter what. Meaning that it is freedom of religion for all, personal and religious feelings aside. The problem with alot of the folks who fit into this category of thinking is that they are so rigid in their stance that they are not trying to see the other side of the equation and why people think the way they do. The reasons for their rigidity are what I already mentioned and perhaps a PC mentality thrown in. (sometimes necessary)

Ok, so the question is what do we do about it and how can we get the two very different groups of people to smooth their feathers and hopefully fill in the numerous blanks that are out there? How do we eventually work through trust issues? How do we answer questions that are currently being avoided (namely the imam)?

GO!

I wish IWP would feel such great sympathy for Americans soldiers killed protecting our nation

Sorry, but the Nazi slur is used far more often by leftists against conservatives than the other way around.

Bush was the subject of Nazi slurs for 8 years -- hell, he's still being slurred.

Honestly, I don't recall ANYONE I know even contemplating the use of Nazi toward Obama. Socialist? Oh yes, you bet. But Nazi? Nope.

I've seen Limbaugh, O'Reilly, and a myriad of other radio or TV personalities referred to as Nazis by leftists, too.

Can't say I've ever heard anyone say the same about Olbermann or any of his ilk. Crazy? Yup. But not Nazi.

So you can SAY the slur is used equally by both sides but, in fact, that's not the case. You might be able to even pull up an example or two of conservatives using it toward liberals...but that's still not the same. It's just yet another example of false equivalence; another tried and true debating tactic by those on the left.

You are right about one thing: using it pretty much automatically loses you the argument in my opinion, too.

Bigdogg;457255 wrote:I agree it feels more like Kristallnacht.

Implying that those voicing opposition to the building of a mosque anywhere near the falling of the Twin Towers blatantly caused by those who espouse radical Islamic beliefs as Nazis is asinine.

While I personally do not object to the building of mosques by any peace-loving Muslims wherever they have the legal and financial ability to do so, the proposal to build this mosque near "ground zero" flies in the face of those who see the area as hallowed ground. Those who seek to build this mosque there are clearly doing so more as a dastardly political statement than meeting the spiritual needs of the NYC Muslim community. At the very least it defies common-sense to exponential proportion.

Equating the objections to Nazism is utter bullshit.

believer;457988 wrote: the proposal to build this mosque near "ground zero" flies in the face of those who see the area as hallowed ground.

Well what about all of the smut and porn stores around this hallowed ground? They don't seem to mind that?

BoatShoes;458002 wrote:Well what about all of the smut and porn stores around this hallowed ground? They don't seem to mind that?

Millions of Americans witnessed 3,000 fellow citizens perish on live television as the Twin Towers dropped due to radical Islam's vain attempt to topple the Great Satan and you want me to equate that to Manhattan smut stores?

I'm beginning to understand why you have B and S capitalized in BoatShoes.

believer;458046 wrote:Millions of Americans witnessed 3,000 fellow citizens perish on live television as the Twin Towers dropped due to radical Islam's vain attempt to topple the Great Satan and you want me to equate that to Manhattan smut stores?

I'm beginning to understand why you have B and S capitalized in BoatShoes.

Once again...if those millions of americans who witnessed that in anyway way relate this Mosque to Radical Islam they are making a causal relation grounded in the worst kind of reasoning. Radical Islam has nothing to do with this Mosque and this Mosque has nothing to do with the awful tragedy of 9/11 by all accounts. The only people who think there's a relation write articles on websites that JHay goes to and refer to Islam as something created by the Devil.

And the point about the smut stores is that it's a joke to refer to lower manhattan and the immediate area around ground zero hallowed ground. Perhaps the exact site is...but just outside of it you might just find a bum masturbating.

It does not fly in the face of the victims of 9/11 for peaceful people to worship their God close to where the tragic event happened. It flies in the face of reason and rational thought to equate in any way most of Islam to the evil perverts who've used it justify horrible things.

I don't want you to equate 9/11 to smut stores. I want you to stop equating most muslims, these muslims and most of Islam to radical terrorists who use islam as a tool to recruit disenfranchised persons to become terrorists and do despicable things.

If the Imam Rauf REALLY wanted to make a few new million friends and show that he has a heart, he could call it off, pick an alternate site, and apologize if he seemed insensitive to the families of the victims. All of this would go away and he could build his mosque anywhere.

BUT...he's not going to do that, now is he? You have to ask yourself, "why not?" and "why is he so intent on THIS SITE?" Those are the important questions to ask, since he and his financial supporters are hell bent on making as many Americans as mad as they can for as long as they can. Once again...why this site? There are likely thousands of sites available in NYC, as foreclosures and abandoned buildings have multiplied in the past few years. What make this one so special to him and his financial supporters?

BoatShoes;458063 wrote:It does not fly in the face of the victims of 9/11 for peaceful people to worship their God close to where the tragic event happened. It flies in the face of reason and rational thought to equate in any way most of Islam to the evil perverts who've used it justify horrible things.

I don't want you to equate 9/11 to smut stores. I want you to stop equating most muslims, these muslims and most of Islam to radical terrorists who use islam as a tool to recruit disenfranchised persons to become terrorists and do despicable things.

When the people of the alleged "religion of peace" begin policing the radical element that has hijacked their religion and starts playing nice with their global non-Muslim neighbors, I'll stop equating Islam as the major source of worldwide terrorism.

BGFalcons82;458072 wrote:Oncce again...why this site? There are likely thousands of sites available in NYC, as foreclosures and abandoned buildings have multiplied in the past few years. What make this one so special to him and his financial supporters?

It's an "in-your-face" political statement by the followers (OK BoatShoes..SOME followers) of the religion of peace.

jhay78;457759 wrote: For the 999th time, we need to find out more about this Rauf guy, why this spot in NYC is where "the mosque must be built", and who's paying for it.

Do you do that to everyone who builds a mosque? Did you check the guy who runs the mosque 4 blocks away from ground zero also? Or is 4 blocks away not close enough to have evil intentions?

Ankle Breaker;457713 wrote:You're billiant, Glory Days. Who caused the families of the 27 muslims to die? Of course they should be sympathetic to those people but even you should be able to see that those 27 muslims were not the target. Take off your blinders.

Better take a look at the blinders you have on. Those muslims in the WTC were the target. They were americans. We werent attacked that day because of our faith, but because we were americans. Or once again, arent muslims american?

believer;457988 wrote: While I personally do not object to the building of mosques by any peace-loving Muslims wherever they have the legal and financial ability to do so, the proposal to build this mosque near "ground zero" flies in the face of those who see the area as hallowed ground. Those who seek to build this mosque there are clearly doing so more as a dastardly political statement than meeting the spiritual needs of the NYC Muslim community. At the very least it defies common-sense to exponential proportion.

If this old Burlington Coat Factory where the mosque is being built is hallowed ground, why doesn’t the mayor or someone step in and order that all property within X amount of blocks of ground zero become protected land? Oh wait, because its not ground zero, its 2 blocks away and an old Burlington Coat Factory. Who determines at what point something becomes “hallowed ground”? 2 blocks, 4 blocks, 20 blocks, all of lower manhatten?

BGFalcons82;458072 wrote:If the Imam Rauf REALLY wanted to make a few new million friends and show that he has a heart, he could call it off, pick an alternate site, and apologize if he seemed insensitive to the families of the victims. All of this would go away and he could build his mosque anywhere.

BUT...he's not going to do that, now is he? You have to ask yourself, "why not?" and "why is he so intent on THIS SITE?" Those are the important questions to ask, since he and his financial supporters are hell bent on making as many Americans as mad as they can for as long as they can. Once again...why this site? There are likely thousands of sites available in NYC, as foreclosures and abandoned buildings have multiplied in the past few years. What make this one so special to him and his financial supporters?

because its HIS mosque, not "yours". If he feels that this is the best location for this mosque, he can build it there if he pleases. maybe this area of NYC doesnt have a community center/mosque. and its NYC, as stated earlier i think, property there isnt easy to come by.

If the Imam Rauf REALLY wanted to make a few new million friends and show that he has a heart, he could call it off, pick an alternate site, and apologize if he seemed insensitive to the families of the victims. All of this would go away and he could build his mosque anywhere.

Exactly. Certainly, the Imam is smart enough to realize this. So, why isn't he doing the smartest thing?

Glory Days;458102 wrote:If this old Burlington Coat Factory where the mosque is being built is hallowed ground, why doesn’t the mayor or someone step in and order that all property within X amount of blocks of ground zero become protected land? Oh wait, because its not ground zero, its 2 blocks away and an old Burlington Coat Factory. Who determines at what point something becomes “hallowed ground”? 2 blocks, 4 blocks, 20 blocks, all of lower manhatten?

When I put in 9 years of military service to help insure we're able to debate politics without persecution, we had an old saying - "It's close enough for government work."

Glory Days;458102 wrote:because its HIS mosque, not "yours". If he feels that this is the best location for this mosque, he can build it there if he pleases. maybe this area of NYC doesnt have a community center/mosque. and its NYC, as stated earlier i think, property there isnt easy to come by.

What if it doesn't "please" the families of the victims? Oh, that's right, it's NOT about them now is it? Can you answer the question, "why this site?" And you are sorely mistaken if you think all the property in NYC is taken. In reality, I believe this is the CLOSEST property he could find to where Muslim followers followed their jihad and went to heaven to find their 72 virgins.

That brings another question you will duck..if the fringe followers of the "religion of peace" are truly the fringe and not wanted by the majority of the faith, then why don't they denounce them publicly, call out this Imam as nothing more than an arrogant prick, and try to root out all of the radicals?

^^^No no no BG...you have it all wrong. The location of the mosque site is only coincidentally near the WTC site...but not really on the site. And the reason this arrogant prick Imam wants to put his mosque in that particular location is to service the growing spiritual needs of Manhattan followers of the religion of peace...nothing more.

BGFalcons82;458148 wrote:What if it doesn't "please" the families of the victims? Oh, that's right, it's NOT about them now is it? Can you answer the question, "why this site?" And you are sorely mistaken if you think all the property in NYC is taken. In reality, I believe this is the CLOSEST property he could find to where Muslim followers followed their jihad and went to heaven to find their 72 virgins.

That brings another question you will duck..if the fringe followers of the "religion of peace" are truly the fringe and not wanted by the majority of the faith, then why don't they denounce them publicly, call out this Imam as nothing more than an arrogant prick, and try to root out all of the radicals?

So the families are pleased with a mosque 4 blocks away, but not 2 blocks? Are you serious? Ask the Imam or whoever it is why this site? Cheap property, the size of the previous building similar to the size of the mosque. Maybe the mosque 2 blocks away is becoming crowded, so therefore they build another mosque nearby. Because a mosque is being built NEAR ground zero, it must have evil intentions? come on, please tell me we are better than that.

Why wont they denounce them publicly? I don’t know, maybe so they don’t get their mosque blown up by their fringe followers who believe all muslims should be like the members of Al-Qaeda. What kind of stupid question was that?

if we live in a country built on freedoms, specifically religous freedom in this situation, why cant let people who had nothing to do with 9/11, build a mosque?

believer;458186 wrote:^^^No no no BG...you have it all wrong. The location of the mosque site is only coincidentally near the WTC site...but not really on the site. And the reason this arrogant prick Imam wants to put his mosque in that particular location is to service the growing spiritual needs of Manhattan followers of the religion of peace...nothing more.

so answer my question, if after 9 years, this ground is “hallowed”. Why hasn’t it become protected government land?

another question. where does it end? what about a muslim owned businesses NEAR ground zero that uses arabic lettering on its sign or other symbols of the islamic faith? what about apartments with large groups of muslims living there? should we cap the number of muslims who could live in an apartment complex near ground zero? what about tourist at ground zero speaking arabic?

Glory Days;458204 wrote:so answer my question, if after 9 years, this ground is “hallowed”. Why hasn’t it become protected government land?

So the government must declare it "hallowed" for it to be so? uh huh

I wonder if New Yorkers who experienced the carnage believe the ground holds special significance and if so, do they need the Feds to come in and sprinkle unholy water on it to make it so?

Glory Days - let me ask you a few questions?

Do you believe there are sleeper cells in the US right now with plans to take this country down in a big way? If so, do you think those folks are Muslim?

Do you look at the Muslim movement as one which wishes to take over the world?

Do you realize the both Christians and Americans are targets of the radical Muslims and both you and your family as well as mine are targets of these folks......and that they are scheming ways to bring down our country as I'm typing right now?

Who is more likely to set off a dirty bomb in NYC or release nerve gas in a subway system in this country - a Muslim or a Christian?

Do you think there are any Muslim Americans who are a threat to this country?

Do you think it is alright for a little old 80 year old lady to be frisked going into an NFL stadium or a young lady to be padded down before taking off on a flight because of what some Muslims did on 9/11? But at the same time, we can't inconvenience them by having a mosque built somewhere else other than the shadows of the WTC?
Do you think any Muslims take the verse below literally?
Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

It must be nice to go around with rose-colored glasses and think that everyone is harmless but that's not the reality of the situation we are in today. I am certain that a majority of Muslims do not take the passage above in a literal sense. However, those who do - can wreak a lot of havoc on a lot of innocent people.

Here's your clue > There are bad folk everywhere - Christians, Jews, white, black, oriental, rich, poor etc. - even some Muslims. Anyone who has a history of causing problems for innocent people need to be treated just a little differently. I'm sorry you don't see it that way.

This could be a great opportunity for Imam to prove that Islam "is" a religion of peace by backing off.

We'll see if that happens. As stated before, there's other mosques.

And as for the Westboro Baptist Church, they had a right to protest at a funeral but like the vast majority of Americans believe, they should've shown respect and not have done it there.

believer;458220 wrote:So the government must declare it "hallowed" for it to be so? uh huh

I wonder if New Yorkers who experienced the carnage believe the ground holds special significance and if so, do they need the Feds to come in and sprinkle unholy water on it to make it so?

2 blocks away is not ground zero, sorry. and i believe, shanksville, Pa and ground zero are protected lands now. but like i stated before, 2 blocks is too close, but 4 blocks away is acceptable? what does the carnage that happend that day have to do with someone who had absolutely nothing to do with the attacks and probably witnessed the carnage himself, have anything to do with it? like i stated, muslims died in the WTCs that day too. muslims on the street watched the towers fall. they were americans just like you and me, watching their fellow americans die.

Ankle Breaker;458225 wrote:Glory Days - let me ask you a few questions?

Do you believe there are sleeper cells in the US right now with plans to take this country down in a big way? If so, do you think those folks are Muslim?

Do you look at the Muslim movement as one which wishes to take over the world?

Do you realize the both Christians and Americans are targets of the radical Muslims and both you and your family as well as mine are targets of these folks......and that they are scheming ways to bring down our country as I'm typing right now?

Who is more likely to set off a dirty bomb in NYC or release nerve gas in a subway system in this country - a Muslim or a Christian?

Do you think there are any Muslim Americans who are a threat to this country?

Do you think it is alright for a little old 80 year old lady to be frisked going into an NFL stadium or a young lady to be padded down before taking off on a flight because of what some Muslims did on 9/11? But at the same time, we can't inconvenience them by having a mosque built somewhere else other than the shadows of the WTC?
Do you think any Muslims take the verse below literally?
Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

It must be nice to go around with rose-colored glasses and think that everyone is harmless but that's not the reality of the situation we are in today. I am certain that a majority of Muslims do not take the passage above in a literal sense. However, those who do - can wreak a lot of havoc on a lot of innocent people.

Here's your clue > There are bad folk everywhere - Christians, Jews, white, black, oriental, rich, poor etc. - even some Muslims. Anyone who has a history of causing problems for innocent people need to be treated just a little differently. I'm sorry you don't see it that way.

so i cant duck your questions, but you can duck mine? and there have been many more white christian "terrorist" attacks here in this country than muslim terrorist, how come people arent treating me just a little differently? oh thats right, because i am not some nutjob in the minority of white male christians.

Are there sleeper cells here, maybe, probably. Can they take this country down in a big way, doubt it.

Do I think muslims will take over the world? Uhh no, not any more than any other religion going around the world preaching their religion is the best religion etc.

I do realize that there are radical muslims trying to harm me(I was blown up by some actually). I also know that there are americans who are muslim who are just as much of a target as me and you.

Who is more likely? Well anyone really. Mcveigh used fertilizer, other white christians have used guns. Pretty sure anyone could use anything.

Do I there are muslim americans that are a threat. Probably. But there are plenty of white christians who are a threat too. I am headed to work now, but there are a lot more groups out there than muslims who are dangerous to us.

Captain Cavalier;458238 wrote:This could be a great opportunity for Imam to prove that Islam "is" a religion of peace by backing off.

We'll see if that happens. As stated before, there's other mosques.

And as for the Westboro Baptist Church, they had a right to protest at a funeral but like the vast majority of Americans believe, they should've shown respect and not have done it there.

this could be a great opportunity for this country to stand behind the freedoms and tolerances it was built on and look past a small percentage of radicals by not labeling a whole religion as dangerous.

as stated before, its not on ground zero.

I think some of the disconnect comes from our view of religion and its role with government. You just do not see it run this way in Islamic states. And my guess is, with long term vision, some see this mosque as a starting point. These same people cherish freedom and know that the two - Islam and freedom - are not easily compatable.

We like our constitution and the freedoms outlined therein. I seriously doubt they do.

What is the end result for Islam? By that I mean, when are Muslims or Allah satisfied?