The Shrinking Middle Class and Perhaps a Manic Appeal to my Conservative Friends.

Home ▸ Archive ▸ Politics ▸ The Shrinking Middle Class and Perhaps a Manic Appeal to my Conservative Friends.
CenterBHSFan's avatar

CenterBHSFan

333 - I'm only half evil

6,115 posts
Jul 28, 2010 9:26 PM
Paladin;435024 wrote:The last time I looked , the American public has the R ranked the lowest of politicans in confidence to do the job. Ds are higher & the Prez higher still. Been that way for several years and there is no change. That is because the policies of the R are well known and rejected despite the continuing mantra of the Right wing here. This is a situation that you can't BS your way thru -- Rs & their policies are rejected -- OVERWHEMINGLY . Why ? -- because they failed and have produced where we are now. All the public sees is a Prez trying and a Party of No opposing him and not voting for anything. What are they for ? More tax cuts for the rich that have already failed. Obama will be re-elected.

The problems with fellow democrats like you and Gibby, Paladin, is that you are so critical of the opposing party instead of examining your own chosen party with a critical eye.

If you did, you wouldn't be so eager to tout them. The dems are fronted by a bunch of kooks that are nuttier than a JIF warehouse.

If you think that our democratic party has changed anything, especially for the better, than you're:
1. not that intelligent yourself or
2. trolling and rabble-rousing or
3. so wrapped up into hardliner's position that you'll never see the light of day

If you're not any of those you wouldn't be so quick to hold on tight to what we currently have. You would, at some point, demand better out of who we elect.
Jul 28, 2010 9:26pm
Writerbuckeye's avatar

Writerbuckeye

Senior Member

4,745 posts
Jul 28, 2010 10:29 PM
Ahhh more envy of those who are wealthy and successful.

Do you ever get tired of being angry and envious of others?

It must be a truly miserably life.
Jul 28, 2010 10:29pm
Writerbuckeye's avatar

Writerbuckeye

Senior Member

4,745 posts
Jul 28, 2010 10:39 PM
Wasn't it Mr. Obama who told us we had to pass his porulus bill NOW or there would be disaster?

And wasn't it Mr. Obama who told us if we passed his porkulus bill that employment would never go beyond 8 percent?

Yell, scream and stamp your feet all you like about his predecessor but one fact remains true: Bush is gone and this economy is now Obama's problem -- and so far as business and jobs go, he's done nothing but make things worse.

He is totally unqualified to be in that seat, but so many of you fell for the "hope and change" malarkey that we're now stuck with what I believe is an overly narcissistic and ego-maniacal man. God help us all, because I don't think it's going to improve any time soon. He's very quickly taken us to the precipice -- let's just hope he's smart enough not to take us over the cliff.
Jul 28, 2010 10:39pm
P

Paladin

Senior Member

313 posts
Jul 28, 2010 11:17 PM
The article is well laid out. People don't forget. Handing off a bag of sh!t is still a bag of sh!t . More tax cuts ? :p Please !
Jul 28, 2010 11:17pm
gibby08's avatar

gibby08

Senior Member

1,581 posts
Jul 28, 2010 11:29 PM
Writerbuckeye;435083 wrote:Wasn't it Mr. Obama who told us we had to pass his porulus bill NOW or there would be disaster?

And wasn't it Mr. Obama who told us if we passed his porkulus bill that employment would never go beyond 8 percent?

Yell, scream and stamp your feet all you like about his predecessor but one fact remains true: Bush is gone and this economy is now Obama's problem -- and so far as business and jobs go, he's done nothing but make things worse.

He is totally unqualified to be in that seat, but so many of you fell for the "hope and change" malarkey that we're now stuck with what I believe is an overly narcissistic and ego-maniacal man. God help us all, because I don't think it's going to improve any time soon. He's very quickly taken us to the precipice -- let's just hope he's smart enough not to take us over the cliff.


You couldn't be more wrong
Jul 28, 2010 11:29pm
F

Footwedge

Senior Member

9,265 posts
Jul 28, 2010 11:49 PM
queencitybuckeye;433351 wrote:What I'm saying is his "facts" don't support that conclusion. Of course, you won't let that stop you from hijacking the thread to go on your "evil corporation rant" for the 1,478th time.
For the 1479th time....do you want a 2 class society? With one class comprising 5% of the population? And any idiot can view the facts posted over the past 30 years. Use your google button.
Jul 28, 2010 11:49pm
F

Footwedge

Senior Member

9,265 posts
Jul 28, 2010 11:56 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;433389 wrote:And for the 1,479th time, he appears to confuse the private sector with the goverment.

LOL. What private sector are you talking about? Ma and pa shops who are forced to play by the rules capitalists..... or the corporate welfarists that bought the government? Do you enjoy working in corporate America whereby there is no free market forces? And for the 1480th time you will scratch your nuts in an attempt to stimulate your brain.
Jul 28, 2010 11:56pm
F

Footwedge

Senior Member

9,265 posts
Jul 29, 2010 12:01 AM
Manhattan Buckeye;433458 wrote:It is bashed because there are no references. It doesn't matter if you are a conservative, liberal, libertarian or populist. It was a lousy article.

If you have stats with references, feel free to post them. If a tidal wave is coming, to keep it political who is in charge now? Last time I checked it is a DEM senate, a DEM house and a DEM POTUS.


Another partisan hack rant...funny...back on the huddle days.. according to you...Pinocchio could do no wrong...as he bailed out the corporate welfarists to the tune of 700 billion. Another party chameleon.

As for facts supporting Iggy's post? How many links do you want? 10? 20? 30? Google is easy.
Jul 29, 2010 12:01am
F

Footwedge

Senior Member

9,265 posts
Jul 29, 2010 12:07 AM
IggyPride00;433529 wrote:Business's aren't hiring right now not so much because of the administration, but because they don't have to. Earnings season has been great so far. We've had efficiency gains go through the roof during the recession, as businesses have learned to do more with less.

For all the spending that's gone on, the dirty little secret is we are in a virtual period of deflation right now. Businesses won't hire until there is demand, period. No amount of tax cuts, favorable legislation, or any other friendly measures one can think of will change that. Almost 9 million people have lost their job in the recession, and a good portion of those who haven't are tapped on credit. Wages will continue to stagnate as long as unemployment is high, and that only adds to the deflationary pressure. The CPI increased by .1% I think it was last year.

Deflation is great for those who have cash, but it also encourages businesses and people to keep sitting on their money because they know prices will come down in the future. Real Estate is that way right now, as there are plenty of people I suspect holding off on moving as we have not found the bottom of the housing market yet.

Inflation is a nightmare, but in an economy that is as highly levered and debt ridden as ours deflation is a disaster.

Businesses aren't going to hire until there is a demand for their products. The demand isn't going to be there until people are working again. It is a vicious cycle that just keeps spiraling down and does no good for anyone.

I am not sure really there is a blueprint out there to deal with the situation we are in. Quite frankly that kind of scares me a bit because with tax rates near historic lows, interest rates at 0%, and FED financial backstops in the trillions of dollars we should be creating jobs. The fact that 3 years into the recession we aren't, speaks of far bigger problems than Obama's healthcare plan, a 4% increase in taxes or some watered down new financial regulations.
Present day deflation during a period of huge deficit spending and teeny tiny interest rates are living proof that the American economy has jumped the shark...and is totally fuct.
Jul 29, 2010 12:07am
Q

queencitybuckeye

Senior Member

7,117 posts
Jul 29, 2010 6:35 AM
Footwedge;435153 wrote:For the 1479th time....do you want a 2 class society? With one class comprising 5% of the population? And any idiot can view the facts posted over the past 30 years. Use your google button.
It appears not as I continue to provide the means for a couple dozen families to stay solidly in the middle class. What are you doing about it?
Jul 29, 2010 6:35am
B

BoatShoes

Senior Member

5,703 posts
Jul 29, 2010 12:21 PM
gibby08;435124 wrote:You couldn't be more wrong

Look, I'm not going to sit here and say a president needs, X, Y and Z experiences in order to be considered qualified to be president. The guys who started this whole thing listed what qualifies a person to be president and BHO meets those qualifications...but you MUST admit, at the very least, that it is undoubtedly true that President Obama has never been the guy to make the ultimate decision at any other point in his life. As far as "qualifications" go, he's probably as little qualified as any president ever. Doesn't mean he can't be a good president but you must concede that point.
Jul 29, 2010 12:21pm
Q

QuakerOats

Senior Member

8,740 posts
Jul 29, 2010 2:15 PM
gibby08;433572 wrote:So none of this uncertainty has anything to do with Bush's policies either?

No it doesn't. It has to do directly with obamacare (a 3 MILLION PAGE regulatory nightmare), cap-n-tax, EPA overreach, allowing the expiration of Bush tax cuts, and any number of other anti-business, anti-investment, anti-growth, anti-jobs policies spewing out of DC.
Jul 29, 2010 2:15pm
Q

QuakerOats

Senior Member

8,740 posts
Jul 29, 2010 2:30 PM
Boatshoes,

As to your initial post and the statistics included therein, many of those numbers are innacurate or at a minimum completely out of meanginful context. That is a problem. But for argument's sake let us assume they are true and the manufactured message as presented is accurate. When I read through them the single theme that goes through my mind is: lack of education. And we all know who is in charge of education.

To me the focus of your rant should not be about rich vs. poor, and corporations vs the little guy, but rather the educated vs. the uneducated. To that end we are witnesses to government and public monopoly failure on the grandest scale. Until we turn that around, real opportunity for all will be difficult.
Jul 29, 2010 2:30pm
Little Danny's avatar

Little Danny

Senior Member

4,288 posts
Jul 29, 2010 2:34 PM
I have a question: what exactly is the middle-class and who are the "working people"?

I mean, everyone who has a job qualifies as "working people" right? I mean, if I am a lawyer, a doctor, or a insurance agent, I am just as much as a working guy as the guy working down at the UDF, working in a steel mill or a fireman right?

If person #1 is earning $80,000 a year as a loan officer and person #2 is some blue collar union worker making $40/hr, why is person #2 considered to be part of a "working family". Hell, guy #2 probably has a much better benefit package and pays very little in his health insurance premium (which is tax exempt nonetheless).

So why do people play so many games with all of this?
Jul 29, 2010 2:34pm
Q

queencitybuckeye

Senior Member

7,117 posts
Jul 29, 2010 2:43 PM
Little Danny;435686 wrote:I have a question: what exactly is the middle-class and who are the "working people"?

I mean, everyone who has a job qualifies as "working people" right? I mean, if I am a lawyer, a doctor, or a insurance agent, I am just as much as a working guy as the guy working down at the UDF, working in a steel mill or a fireman right?

Absolutely, but there are many out there with various agendas pushing the concept that the highly successful were born into an advantageous position as opposed to working for it, despite the statistics disproving such nonsense in an overwhelming, unequivocal manner.
Jul 29, 2010 2:43pm
Writerbuckeye's avatar

Writerbuckeye

Senior Member

4,745 posts
Jul 29, 2010 4:28 PM
Little Danny;435686 wrote:I have a question: what exactly is the middle-class and who are the "working people"?

I mean, everyone who has a job qualifies as "working people" right? I mean, if I am a lawyer, a doctor, or a insurance agent, I am just as much as a working guy as the guy working down at the UDF, working in a steel mill or a fireman right?

If person #1 is earning $80,000 a year as a loan officer and person #2 is some blue collar union worker making $40/hr, why is person #2 considered to be part of a "working family". Hell, guy #2 probably has a much better benefit package and pays very little in his health insurance premium (which is tax exempt nonetheless).

So why do people play so many games with all of this?

Easy answer: politics.

For as long as I can remember, Democrats have tried to divide this country by spewing hatred for the haves while boasting how they stood for the "little guy" against (pick any): big business, Wall St., corporations, the wealthy and powerful.

The idea is to create fear, hatred and envy toward those who are successful, all in the name of garnering votes and making as many people as dependent on government as possible.

As you can see, it can be very successful at times -- and the more bloated government becomes, and the more successful Democrats are at inserting government in every aspect of our lives, the more likely it is you'll get hooked on some program they provide (whether you truly need it or not) and not want to give it up.

It's all about getting votes -- and they use envy to do it.
Jul 29, 2010 4:28pm
believer's avatar

believer

Senior Member

8,153 posts
Jul 29, 2010 5:16 PM
Writerbuckeye;435888 wrote:It's all about getting votes -- and they use envy to do it.
True but Hillary used penis envy and it backfired on her. ;)
Jul 29, 2010 5:16pm
P

Paladin

Senior Member

313 posts
Jul 29, 2010 5:39 PM
More BS. Talking about a "union" guy making $40 a hour + benefits is laughable. You business owners think you can BS the world with that garbage. I have son-in-law who works at one of those great autoworker union jobs making top dollar ( $28). The benefits are awful. No overtime.

I also laugh at the notion we "need more educated people". Many of them are already in the unemployed lines and have been for two years. You have to have JOBS available for educated folks and we have a surplus of educated people. I have engineer neighbors who can't find a job. White collar & blue collar both took major hits with job losses. More garbage from the guys who won the "class warfare war " .
Jul 29, 2010 5:39pm
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Jul 29, 2010 5:43 PM
And again, who is in charge?

Obama, Reid and Pelosi. This is their watch.
Jul 29, 2010 5:43pm
Little Danny's avatar

Little Danny

Senior Member

4,288 posts
Jul 29, 2010 6:04 PM
Paladin;435957 wrote:More BS. Talking about a "union" guy making $40 a hour + benefits is laughable. You business owners think you can BS the world with that garbage. I have son-in-law who works at one of those great autoworker union jobs making top dollar ( $28). The benefits are awful. No overtime.

I also laugh at the notion we "need more educated people". Many of them are already in the unemployed lines and have been for two years. You have to have JOBS available for educated folks and we have a surplus of educated people. I have engineer neighbors who can't find a job. White collar & blue collar both took major hits with job losses. More garbage from the guys who won the "class warfare war " .

How is it BS. White collar workers work too. They have their own horrors stories--- salaried workers made to work ridiculous hours (no overtime), not given raises despite increased costs of benefits, job consolidations, and son and so forth. The point I'm making is it is people like you who draw the divide between the us vs. them mentality.

Also, I understand in your example $28/hr is a max salary; well that $80,000 salary I mentioned was pretty lofty as well. A lot of white collar people would love to make $80K. I bet your $28/hr friend gets overtime doesn't he?
Jul 29, 2010 6:04pm
S

sjmvsfscs08

Senior Member

2,963 posts
Jul 29, 2010 6:49 PM
The middle class is shrinking because we aren't winning the battle with globalization. I often doubt we can; perhaps our quality of life won't always increase exponentially.

It's fairly obvious the United States is moving away from 20th century manufacturing into 21st science-based technologies. We dominate the world in bioengineering, genetic engineering, etc., and while it doesn't necessarily produce jobs in great quantities......would you rather be the country making thousands of sweaters (a textile-based, very 19th century economy), thousands of dryers (a manufacturing-based, very 20th century economy), or the country that has the scientific breakthroughs which lead the world (a science/research-based, very 21st century economy).

That was the view of a college professor I used to converse with. It's worth pondering.

I simply think the roll of the government, domestically, is to create jobs. Private sector jobs that are permanent. People are content when they have a job.
Jul 29, 2010 6:49pm
believer's avatar

believer

Senior Member

8,153 posts
Jul 29, 2010 7:33 PM
sjmvsfscs08;436037 wrote:I simply think the roll of the government, domestically, is to create jobs. Private sector jobs that are permanent. People are content when they have a job.
I was with you until I read this. The government is not - nor should it be - in the business of creating jobs. The best way for the government to create private sector employment is by getting the hell out of the way.
Jul 29, 2010 7:33pm
G

general94

Member

91 posts
Jul 29, 2010 8:48 PM
I also always wondered what the hell phrases like "working families" or "working class" meant, and what kind of message they were meant to send. I guess I never thought about it until I was older. But like others have posted, it is really just another attempt to divide the country and have the almighty government come and save all of the poor little folks. I mean, couldn't anybody that has a job be considered "working class" or if they have a family, a "working family?" I also wonder why so many people (including some on here) are so obsessed with how much money someone makes, and if they are considered to be wealthy or well off, then by God they must be screwing the little guy to get that way. We really have become a nation of whiners.
Jul 29, 2010 8:48pm
HitsRus's avatar

HitsRus

Senior Member

9,206 posts
Jul 29, 2010 11:34 PM
No matter where it is levied,,,the middle class always bears the brunt of taxes, if not by the taxes themselves, then thru higher prices for goods purchased. I don't know where this notion that taxes are at historic lows comes from....You are hit at the federal level..thru regular income tax and F.I.C.A. Your employer tosses in matching taxes for your F.I.C.A as well as unemployment taxes etc....all which gets passed on to the consumer who buys the products. Then your are nailed at the state level...and the local level. Toss in 6-7% sales tax...real estate tax...excise tax...hotel taxes Etc etc etc.. Now I know that over the years F.I C.A has increased steadily....and I know over the years that the percentage of sales taxes has at least doubled since I was a kid. And I know that my local income tax has increased from 1/2% to 2 % just within the 30 years I've been working. Add these things up, and it becomes obvious that the middle class is being nickled and dimed to extinction by bloated government. The rich and productive survive because they can pass these taxes on and still have money to prosper. The poor pay no taxes, and actually get monetary rewards for doing nothing. It is the guy in the middle that pays and pays and pays....and it doesn't matter how or where you levy it.

The biggest single threat to the middle class is taxes and bloated government.
Jul 29, 2010 11:34pm