^^^Nothing like calling a spade a spade. Harsh but true. I'll take a strong relatively pro-American alleged apartheidist Israel over anti-American radical Islamic jihadists any day of the week.

I grow very tired of hearing how badly the West has treated the Arab world. Of course we have....and the Arab world also has a long storied history of their own radical violence against the West. The left erroneously believes that all we have to do is play nice in the sandbox, toast marshmallows, and sing Kumbaya with the jihadists and they'll quickly change their attitudes towards us. Blind, naive, and total bullshit.

The issues in the Middle East are deeply ancient, highly religious, and uber complicated. Radical Islam hates itself (Sunni vs. Shiite), hates Israel, and hates the West...particularly the United States. The ultimate goal of radical Islam is a world controlled, ruled, and dominated by Muslim clerics according to Sharia law. The "decadent infidel" secular West (but basically Christian) and Jewish Israel are perceived as roadblocks and enemies of radical if not Sharia-based Islam. Convert or be eradicated. It's really that simple. Once they've accomplished world domination then the Sunnis and Shiites will kill each other to determine the "true way of Mohammad."

The self-proclaimed "religion of peace" is far from it. Or at least it will continue as long as radical Islam continues to indoctrinate its very young to hate.

Paladin;413234 wrote:I have no problem with ptown's first statement as it was for many reasons early on. However, it has evolved over time to now a question of money. Campaign contributions, corporate interests and the wealthy Jews in the U.S. forcing politicans to kiss azz. The time for peace was years ago before the matter became too complicated by money, power & wealth. The Arabs have been badly mistreated and the Arab world will never forget. When they brought on many minor early wars & got their butts kicked, the time was ripe for a peace treaty and separate states. Now, it won't happen and this will go on until one side wipes out the other. Israel has expanded beyond reason and refuses to vacate land that would go into a two state solution. Israel had a right to exist. They had no right to expand. And the U.S. has lost control over Israel even with our continued funding of them. They spy on us and are one of the reasons the Muslim world has come after us after decades of frustration & us constantly taking Israel side. It will come back to bite us again.

Just to correct one thing. Israel only expanded from the wars that the Muslim nations started with them. You pick a fight and lose, you typically lose some "stuff". I might be forgetting some "history" here off the top of my head, but Israel did not just decide "hey, I want this extra land so I'm going to attack Egypt and take it".

By your own statement, the US should give back Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Utah, Colorado, and Oklahoma to Mexico then, since we had "no right to expand".

If there was a massive push from the Mexicans to return it and it was constantly causing wars then that'd probably be the right thing to do.

Also, when we got those states it was during a time when it was still cool for nations to do that. It is unacceptable in today's world.

I acknowledge that Arabs started the wars & got their butts kicked. However, land won in the wars is not the big deal today. Israel has spent years moving Arabs out of their homes and off land that wasn't decided in a war. They have set up boundaries and are building on land that is consdered Arab. For that, there will be no peace and only total annihilation will end the dispute. The US is on the wrong side on that issue. And Israel thumbs their nose at us when WE raise legitimate issues. Its simple -- even a friend who f*cks up, lies to us, spies on us and keeps their hand out for money from us yet rebuffs any of our suggestions has alot of nerve to be called & backed as "always right".

Wrong !!

Paladin;414062 wrote:They have set up boundaries and are building on land that is consdered Arab.

LMAO. Israel was partitioned by the UN in what was Palestine which the Arabs also consider "their land".

Fact is the land called "Palestine" has been passed from one group or another for centuries.

God gave it to the Israelites, the Babylonians took it from Israel, the Persians took it from the Babylonians, the Greeks took it from the Persians, the Romans took it from the Greeks, the Byzantine Empire took it from the Romans, the Muslims took it from the Byzantine Empire, the Christian Crusaders took it from the Muslims, the Ottoman Empire took it from the Crusaders, and the British took it from the Ottoman Empire.

Now the world through the UN and at the approval of the Brits gave the land back to the Jews.

What goes around comes around.

Humans have and always will confiscate land by force, money, or edict from other humans. It's the way of things.

Then enjoy fighting & funding the wars because thats what the US has stepped into backing an outlaw who thumbs their nose at us .

Paladin;414062 wrote:Its simple -- even a friend who f*cks up, lies to us, spies on us and keeps their hand out for money from us yet rebuffs any of our suggestions has alot of nerve to be called & backed as "always right".

Wrong !!

Oh, wow! At first I thought you were referring to our federal government.

Whew!

believer;414128 wrote:LMAO. Israel was partitioned by the UN in what was Palestine which the Arabs also consider "their land".

Fact is the land called "Palestine" has been passed from one group or another for centuries.

God gave it to the Israelites, the Babylonians took it from Israel, the Persians took it from the Babylonians, the Greeks took it from the Persians, the Romans took it from the Greeks, the Byzantine Empire took it from the Romans, the Muslims took it from the Byzantine Empire, the Christian Crusaders took it from the Muslims, the Ottoman Empire took it from the Crusaders, and the British took it from the Ottoman Empire.

Now the world through the UN and at the approval of the Brits gave the land back to the Jews.

What goes around comes around.

Humans have and always will confiscate land by force, money, or edict from other humans. It's the way of things.

Then why get upset when a country (or our country even) is attacked. It's just the way of things right?

I Wear Pants;414551 wrote:Then why get upset when a country (or our country even) is attacked. It's just the way of things right?

It is the way of things and when we get attacked we have a right to respond. I never said the Arabs who live in Israel/Palestine don't have legitimate complaints but as a leftist I'm sure you understand social Darwinism.

Arabs have legitimate complaints ??

But lets allow our buddy to steal from them, move them out and support them all the way. We can afford to fight wars forever then, right ?

Paladin;414990 wrote:Arabs have legitimate complaints ??

But lets allow our buddy to steal from them, move them out and support them all the way. We can afford to fight wars forever then, right ?

What land should Israel give back? Be specific.

believer;414738 wrote:It is the way of things and when we get attacked we have a right to respond. I never said the Arabs who live in Israel/Palestine don't have legitimate complaints but as a leftist I'm sure you understand social Darwinism.

Never understood what a social Darwinist is. Charles Darwin's philosophy pretty much was kill or be killed. Survivor-ship depends on genetics, strength, size, etc. Doesn't seem to be a mantra for a socialist. Just an observation.

believer;414738 wrote:It is the way of things and when we get attacked we have a right to respond. I never said the Arabs who live in Israel/Palestine don't have legitimate complaints but as a leftist I'm sure you understand social Darwinism.

As a far right conservative I'm sure you don't even really know what Darwinism is or if you do you don't believe in it.

I Wear Pants;415082 wrote:As a far right conservative I'm sure you don't even really know what Darwinism is or if you do you don't believe in it.

Oh I know what it is and I actually believe it exists...to a degree. Our Creator designed the world and the creatures in it to be able to adapt and adjust as necessary to the environment. But I don't believe we evolved from single-cell organisms from some chance lightning strike in oceanic primordial goo.

Social Darwinism definitely exists...survival of the fittest. It has nothing to do with "socialism."

Tiernan;412790 wrote:Israel represents the last stronghold of Democracy in a Middle East dominated by Islamic Kingdoms. The nation of Zion (Israel) was granted it's independence from Britain in 1948 and like the USA there is still a feeling of superiority over anything British. Israel literaly means "Struggle of God" and no nation on earth struggles more to just exist with dozens of its neighboring countries plotting their destruction every single F'n day. Israelis are some of the toughest people on earth and usually don't need much help in kicking Muslim ass...but every once in awhile they need some assistance, and that is where the USA has an obligation to protect and preserve a race of people who are our first line of defense against the rest of the towel heads who would love nothing more than to see our Way of Life end. Long live the Mossad.

Don't need much help kicking ass? You kidding? If it wasn't for the US, Israel would have been eliminated decades ago.

BCBulldog;413528 wrote:Rationalize it how you want, but baseless attacks of Israel by accusing them of apartheid reeks of antisemitism.

Nothing like a good strawman argument on the OC Politics forum.

Tiernan;413718 wrote:Name ONE other than Egypt (and they already learned their lesson not to Fk with Israel) and I'll show you a Govt pretending to be democratic as they continually control and manipulate every election. And if Israel is apartheid because they are trying to preserve a race of 7 million people against 400 million crazies trying to blow them to smithereens every day, well then I will keep sending my checks to B'nai B'rith until every last rag head with an AK-47 and pipe bomb is eradicated from the sandbox...because that kind of apartheid is helping to keep the Islamic nut-bags from killing us in the streets of America.

You've bought into the propoganda hook, line and sinker.

believer;413957 wrote:^^^Nothing like calling a spade a spade. Harsh but true. I'll take a strong relatively pro-American alleged apartheidist Israel over anti-American radical Islamic jihadists any day of the week.

I grow very tired of hearing how badly the West has treated the Arab world. Of course we have....and the Arab world also has a long storied history of their own radical violence against the West. The left erroneously believes that all we have to do is play nice in the sandbox, toast marshmallows, and sing Kumbaya with the jihadists and they'll quickly change their attitudes towards us. Blind, naive, and total bullshit.

The issues in the Middle East are deeply ancient, highly religious, and uber complicated. Radical Islam hates itself (Sunni vs. Shiite), hates Israel, and hates the West...particularly the United States. The ultimate goal of radical Islam is a world controlled, ruled, and dominated by Muslim clerics according to Sharia law. The "decadent infidel" secular West (but basically Christian) and Jewish Israel are perceived as roadblocks and enemies of radical if not Sharia-based Islam. Convert or be eradicated. It's really that simple. Once they've accomplished world domination then the Sunnis and Shiites will kill each other to determine the "true way of Mohammad."

The self-proclaimed "religion of peace" is far from it. Or at least it will continue as long as radical Islam continues to indoctrinate its very young to hate.

The same could be said of any major religion throughout history. Religion is man-made and that is why it is full of flaws.

believer;414738 wrote:It is the way of things and when we get attacked we have a right to respond. I never said the Arabs who live in Israel/Palestine don't have legitimate complaints but as a leftist I'm sure you understand social Darwinism.

You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. First you side w/ pro-apartheid ISrael (as you stated), then you say Arabs may have legitimate complaints? Second, anything pro-apartheid IS anti-American, just as much as radical Islam is anti-American.

The land in question is from Jerusalem and outlying areas where settlements have been going on for years as Arabs are simply moved out, homes are torn down & and Israelis build theirs & move in.

You do know that this conflict and our backing of Israel was one of the reasons for 9-11 ? Its not just foreigners & American military in Arabs lands. And you want "peace" for us ?

I've said it before and I'll say it again.
Israel and Palestine do not fit neatly in a box. The situation is more complex than I or anyone else on this board can make it.
In one word it is FUBAR. In two words: Charlie Foxtrot.

Our cooperation with Israel is also complex, going beyond cultural and religious and even military.

dwccrew;415566 wrote:You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. First you side w/ pro-apartheid ISrael (as you stated), then you say Arabs may have legitimate complaints? Second, anything pro-apartheid IS anti-American, just as much as radical Islam is anti-American.

First I did not admit that Israel is "pro-apartheid." I used the word "alleged" but thanks for taking it out of context. I simply stated that there are historical and religious reasons for Israel's right to exist. That's all.

I do not deny that Arabs also have their own historical and religious claims to the region.

However as a Bible-believing Christian American I'll side with Israel nearly every time. Am I biased? Absolutely. So are all the parties in this mess. That's why I agree with Ptown that this situation is FUBAR.

believer;415646 wrote:However as a Bible-believing Christian American I'll side with Israel nearly every time. Am I biased? Absolutely. So are all the parties in this mess. That's why I agree with Ptown that this situation is FUBAR.

Just my 2 cents: People who point fingers at Israel are also biased. It's definitely a two-way street. Some people are willing to recognize that fact, some aren't.

Footwedge;415069 wrote:Never understood what a social Darwinist is. Charles Darwin's philosophy pretty much was kill or be killed. Survivor-ship depends on genetics, strength, size, etc. Doesn't seem to be a mantra for a socialist. Just an observation.

Social Darwinism has nothing to do with socialism.

It's the application of Darwin's theories of natural selection to larger social groups. E.g., social Darwinism applied to the NBA would say that franchises with good owners will field good teams and build good fan support, generating more revenue and growing stronger (the Lakers) while franchises with bad owners will draft poorly, build poor teams, make poor decisions, and grow weaker (the Clippers). The fit survive, while the weak are weeded out (Oklahoma City, anyone?).

It has nothing to do with socialism.

believer;415531 wrote:Oh I know what it is and I actually believe it exists...to a degree. Our Creator designed the world and the creatures in it to be able to adapt and adjust as necessary to the environment. But I don't believe we evolved from single-cell organisms from some chance lightning strike in oceanic primordial goo.

Social Darwinism definitely exists...survival of the fittest. It has nothing to do with "socialism."

It was a joke. Hence the

CenterBHSFan;415735 wrote:Just my 2 cents: People who point fingers at Israel are also biased. It's definitely a two-way street. Some people are willing to recognize that fact, some aren't.

Don't get me wrong, I am not placing sole blame on Israel. The Palestineans do less and less to help their cause. However, the fact that Israel flexes their might and moves Palestineans out of their homes and then builds Israeli settlements is completely wrong. Wouldn't you agree?

I don't agree with the Palestineans response with sucide bombings and violence, but I do understand that to them, that is their only way to fight back against a much more powerful Israel that is backed by the even mightier United States.

I only wish Rabin would have never been assassinated. I truly think there would be peace between Palestine and Israel had Rabin not been murdered. Now we will never know.

Tiernan;413718 wrote:Name ONE other than Egypt (and they already learned their lesson not to Fk with Israel) and I'll show you a Govt pretending to be democratic as they continually control and manipulate every election. And if Israel is apartheid because they are trying to preserve a race of 7 million people against 400 million crazies trying to blow them to smithereens every day, well then I will keep sending my checks to B'nai B'rith until every last rag head with an AK-47 and pipe bomb is eradicated from the sandbox...because that kind of apartheid is helping to keep the Islamic nut-bags from killing us in the streets of America.

Were you in BBYO?

Sorry didn't mean to get off topic ....

dwccrew;422751 wrote:Don't get me wrong, I am not placing sole blame on Israel. The Palestineans do less and less to help their cause. However, the fact that Israel flexes their might and moves Palestineans out of their homes and then builds Israeli settlements is completely wrong. Wouldn't you agree?

I don't agree with the Palestineans response with sucide bombings and violence, but I do understand that to them, that is their only way to fight back against a much more powerful Israel that is backed by the even mightier United States.

I only wish Rabin would have never been assassinated. I truly think there would be peace between Palestine and Israel had Rabin not been murdered. Now we will never know.

Crew,

It's not like I'm saying that I agree or disagree with any one person here. I know that Israel hasn't always done what would be considered by most as "the right thing". I'm not denying that at all.

But, at the same time, it's getting to the point where it's downright comical watching people lathering at ONLY Israel.
And then when others point out the other side of the story... well, we have posts deriding that person.

It's the short-sightedness is what gets me. It's almost like it's inherent in those folks.
I've been called a Zionist by folks before, simply for pointing that out. Which, by the way, doesn't have the desired effect on me, since I don't see the word Zionist as being a bad thing lol

CenterBHSFan;423727 wrote:Crew,

It's not like I'm saying that I agree or disagree with any one person here. I know that Israel hasn't always done what would be considered by most as "the right thing". I'm not denying that at all.

But, at the same time, it's getting to the point where it's downright comical watching people lathering at ONLY Israel.
And then when others point out the other side of the story... well, we have posts deriding that person.

It's the short-sightedness is what gets me. It's almost like it's inherent in those folks.
I've been called a Zionist by folks before, simply for pointing that out. Which, by the way, doesn't have the desired effect on me, since I don't see the word Zionist as being a bad thing lol

Center....there is no way that the American media is anti Israel. There is absolutely no way. The media is so pro Israel it's beyond the pale. I don't understand where your opinion is coming from.

We have had in the past 3 or 4 years, 2 or 3 Israeli spies arrested and sent to trial for espionage...in stealing classified Intel and forwarding them to Israel.. Where was that story from the media? More over, there were editorials upon editorials from both the right and the left calling these arrests (if researched on the net) "witch hunts". that "espionage" is just how business gets done in Washington. My guess is that on this political site, probably no one is even aware of these treasonous actions by top AIPAC members.

Then, a pragmatist would overlook the absolute one sided, pro-Israel American stance and do some research on Israel's violations of UN resolutions. Israel has more violations than Iraq, Iran, Syria and Lebanon...combined. Where is the media mentioning this?

During 1967, Israel sank an American ship...and depending who you want to believe, this was either a horrible mistake, or a blatant act of murder on an innocent group of American sailors. Where is the"'anti-Zionist" media in at least mentioning this horrible event commemorating Americans that were killed in this onslaught?

And then you have Jimmy Carter....who was the only president that actually helped broker real peace in that region. As many problems as Carter had, he should be commended for seeing that it got done...as short lived as it was. Yet, when the former president writes a book on what he thinks needs to be done, the hawkish Zionist regime that basically controls our media. labeled him the worst of the worst anti-Semites.

Pretty disgusting behavior from the likes of Alan Dershowitz.....who mislabeled a guy that obtained the "impossible mission" over there.