pkebker wrote: 1 win in a COT. With the Chase format it isn't hard to finish high. Hell Bowyer finished 3rd a few years ago, was he really the 3rd best driver that season? no way.

OK..so Bowyer finished 3rd...ONCE...he doesn't do it year in and year out..big difference. Hell..just 2 years ago Gordon had a 300 plus point lead going into the Chase..he would have easily won the Championship under the old format that year.

pkebker wrote: If a driver makes the chase, he only has to be consistent for 10 races.

Consistent for 10 races? You have to be consistent to make the chase first off...ie Kyle Busch. He won how many races last year? 4 I believe it was? Yet..still didn't make the Chase.

pkebker wrote: He should easily finish in the chase each year with the quality equipment he is driving in.

Oh yeah? How well is that working out for Junior? Same quality equipment. A crappy driver won't make the chase with just good equipment. You still have to be a good driver.

pkebker wrote: But he no longer is a top 5 driver any more, borderline top 10, I'd probably leave him out of the top 10 even.

Not even Top 10 anymore? Come on now. I hate Gordon and Hendricks as much as the next guy. But if you honestly believe that..well..I guess this debate is over. Lol

Not even Top 10 anymore? Come on now. I hate Gordon and Hendricks as much as the next guy. But if you honestly believe that..well..I guess this debate is over. Lol
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Ok, if you don't want to debate anymore I guess we can just disagree. My opinion still stands that Jeff Gordon is one of the greatest of all time, but at this point in his career, he is simply above average. Probably in the 8-15 ranked driver IMO

Anybody ever been to Martinsville? I live close and was thinking about going. Have been to Darlington and Lowes but I don't know if I will like the short track as much. Anyone been, how is it?

j_crazy wrote: SQ you must be joking. I can go to my facebook news feed and pull up to 20 "Jr. back" "Jr. still the best" or similar posts right now.

my question is always "back from what?" he was mediocre at best the last 4 years and had 3 years of really good, but not great, before that.

like i said, you like who you like, but don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Jr.'s not the best.

For the record my ranking of the active drivers:

1. JJ
2. Gordon
3. Stewart
4. Martin
5. Kenseth
6. J. Burton
7. Edwards
8. Kurt Busch
9. Biffle
10. Kyle Busch
11. Bowyer
12. Hamlin
13. Harvick
14. Jr.
15. Newman

Alright, I've not commented on NASCAR one time this year, and I didn't watch a lap of the Daytona 500(out of town) but when it comes to ranking drivers I love to get in the debate.

First off, I don't know a single person who think Junior is anything above average, nor have I seen anyone on either Huddle who thinks he's anything special. There might be people out there that think that, but his popularity is obviously because he's his Daddy's son and not because those fans think he's the greatest.

Secondly, let's get down to rankings. Whether anyone likes it or not Jeff Gordon is a top 5 driver all-time but definitely right now. His 2007 year was one of the best years for anyone ever, and his numbers for the past 4 years easily show he's top 5. I don't have any numbers but he has to have the most 2nd place finishes over the past couple years. Things go his way a little more and he could have as many as 5 more wins. Obviously they didn't but still, how anyone could say he's not top 5 is beyond me.

Going down the list, obviously Jimmie Johnson is first. I doubted his talent for years but he just finds ways to win and is a big time driver. I think a lot of his success stems from Chad Knaus, but as much as I think Jeff Gordon and Kyle Busch have more talent you can't argue with 4 straight.

Just for the heck of it and this is off the top of my head, here would be my rankings.

1. Jimmie Johnson
2. Tony Stewart
3. Jeff Gordon
4. Kyle Busch
5. Mark Martin
6. Denny Hamlin
7. Juan Pablo Montoya
8. Greg Biffle
9. Matt Kenseth
10. Kurt Busch

It's really hard to not have a spot for Jeff Burton, Carl Edwards, Clint Bowyer, Kevin Harvick, or Ryan Newman, but I can't justify having any of those guys ahead of that top 10. That top 5 has four of the greatest drivers ever and another one who could very well end up one of the greatest, Juan Pablo Montoya is as gifted a driver that's out there, and Denny Hamlin is a fantastic talent. And you have previous champions at 9 and 10. Some serious talent is out there right now, but that's how I'd rank them myself.

By the way, glad NASCAR is back. I'll try to talk more during the season as I grew up a HUGE fan and knew anything and everything until about my sophomore year in college, since then football has taken over. But until then I'll try to be in on these threads.

WebFire wrote:

Speedofsand wrote:
1 win a year is good in Nascar. 36 races, 43 drivers. That is beating the odds.
Winning a Nascar race is like having 42 wins and 0 losses on the season that day.

Bullshit. Do we need to whip out stats from good drivers?

what is bullshit ? A win is a win. That should be the objective in Nascar, but the points are.
To win you have to beat 42 other cars.
24 of 36 races last year were won by 5 drivers. 9 other drivers had 1 or 2 wins. Thats 14 drivers in a year winning. Then 29 drivers with no wins for 36 races each. Winning just once in a year puts you in the short list of winners. Loser list is twice as long. 4 of the 12 chase drivers never won a race last year.

iclfan2 wrote: Anybody ever been to Martinsville? I live close and was thinking about going. Have been to Darlington and Lowes but I don't know if I will like the short track as much. Anyone been, how is it?

Many times. Love it. I think you'll enjoy yourself if you go.

pkebker wrote: Not even Top 10 anymore? Come on now. I hate Gordon and Hendricks as much as the next guy. But if you honestly believe that..well..I guess this debate is over. Lol

Ok, if you don't want to debate anymore I guess we can just disagree. My opinion still stands that Jeff Gordon is one of the greatest of all time, but at this point in his career, he is simply above average. Probably in the 8-15 ranked driver IMO
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Above average? Yet you rank him as high as 8. Top ten gets him in the chase every year while 45 others wish they were. If they were to both retire tomorrow Gordon would be 100 drivers (all time) better than jr.

iclfan2 wrote: Anybody ever been to Martinsville? I live close and was thinking about going. Have been to Darlington and Lowes but I don't know if I will like the short track as much. Anyone been, how is it?

I've been to Martinsville about ten times. Its much nicer than it used to be, property has been upgraded like crazy since ISC bought it about 6 years ago. Bill Jr. had the railroad tracks moved to accomodate his plans. Camping is not level. I like Bristol and Charlotte the best. Martinsville too flat and like a paper clip. The only passing is by bumping. The Bailey's late model or Whelen modified races are good there. Nascar tickets are cheap at Martinsville, so I guess it wouldn't hurt to go once for the day. Its handy to have everything so close to do there. The shopping, vendors, speed tv shows, camping and the whole grandstand are walking distance. Only been to Darlington twice recently. The first time was when Bill Elliott won the Winston Million, first time they ever had it. The trucks are coming to Darlington in August I think. I would go to that for sure.

Just to hopefully put this Jeff Gordon argument to rest, here are some stats for the past 4 years. Notice how 2 drivers stand out from the rest.

Wins Top 5's Top 10's
Jeff Gordon 9 64 92
Jimmie Johnson 29 64 94
Tony Stewart 13 41 81
Matt Kenseth 8 44 75
Denny Hamlin 8 47 76
Kyle Busch 14 47 72
Kurt Busch 6 28 57
Carl Edwards 12 47 76
Mark Martin 5 30 58
Kevin Harvick 6 31 63
Greg Biffle 5 35 59

Jeff Gordon's rankings in top 5's over the past 4 years, going from 2009 on back - T-1, 4, 1, T-4(one back of first)
Same thing only for top 10's - 1, T-5, 1, T-9

You can knock Jeff Gordon for only being 5th in wins, but it's not like he's been far from them. Last year alone he had 8 second place finishes.

Jamie McMurray is on Letterman tonite, Regis and Kelly tomorrow, then to Calif.