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Dust_E_Roads

Senior Member

752 posts
Mar 9, 2016 10:37 AM
Anyone know where we kind find the selections? I know many aren't crazy about the rules for selection (# of matches are particular weights, etc.), but I'd still like to see the selections and MOWs, COTY's, etc. I looked on ThisWeeknews and didn't see them. Anyone know a way to get them?
Mar 9, 2016 10:37am
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Coach Ramirez

Senior Member

232 posts
Mar 9, 2016 11:01 AM
Seems like an annual post, but CC had a state champ, 4th place, and 5th place in state not even qualify for honorable mention in our league because of the minimum criteria of 4 matches per weight class. Criteria is a joke!
Mar 9, 2016 11:01am
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Dust_E_Roads

Senior Member

752 posts
Mar 9, 2016 11:07 AM
Certainly odd to have a State Champ not be All-League, but 4 matches seems like a pretty low hurdle clear. That's 57% of eligible matches...
Mar 9, 2016 11:07am
cruiser_96's avatar

cruiser_96

Senior Member

7,536 posts
Mar 9, 2016 11:47 AM
I have the completed file. If I get the time, I'll do some work, retype the file, and the create a PDF. Eventually, it'll be up on the ITC website.
Mar 9, 2016 11:47am
K

ksig489

Senior Member

943 posts
Mar 9, 2016 11:47 AM
So criteria is set but then they want people to bump around to make the best matches and draw a crowd. Then people complain when someone won't bump up because of the criteria.

Why not just vote on it the way it is done for All-Metro? The coaches know who the best kids are. Most of the time the head to head matches will take over anyway.
Mar 9, 2016 11:47am
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Dust_E_Roads

Senior Member

752 posts
Mar 9, 2016 12:58 PM
cruiser_96;1785333 wrote:I have the completed file. If I get the time, I'll do some work, retype the file, and the create a PDF. Eventually, it'll be up on the ITC website.
Great thanks.
Mar 9, 2016 12:58pm
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Dust_E_Roads

Senior Member

752 posts
Mar 9, 2016 1:00 PM
ksig489;1785335 wrote:So criteria is set but then they want people to bump around to make the best matches and draw a crowd. .
I'd be with you 100% if that was even semi-frequently the case. More often than not, especially in OCC duals action, I see teams juggling their line-ups to take forfeits or to get the best matchup for their kids. I only recall a handful of times this year whereby kids bumped to take on the best guys from other teams.
Mar 9, 2016 1:00pm
cruiser_96's avatar

cruiser_96

Senior Member

7,536 posts
Mar 9, 2016 1:09 PM
Posted: I have the team standings, Coach of the Year, Wrestler of the Year, and 1st team-ers listed. ...www.itcrankings.wix.com/InsideTheCircle

I also have a state tournament "round-up" type of article posted as well.
Mar 9, 2016 1:09pm
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Cadillak

Member

35 posts
Mar 9, 2016 1:28 PM
The criteria is pretty silly. You would think going undefeated in the league up two weight classes the majority of the time would get you 1st team. Good thing my boy doesn't care about that stuff.
Mar 9, 2016 1:28pm
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Dust_E_Roads

Senior Member

752 posts
Mar 9, 2016 1:29 PM
cruiser_96;1785366 wrote:Posted: I have the team standings, Coach of the Year, Wrestler of the Year, and 1st team-ers listed. ...www.itcrankings.wix.com/InsideTheCircle
Thanks. I was curious on the OCC Cardinal MOW. I was thinking Triansue would get, but I figured Ball would get some votes too.

That OCC Central 1st team crew would make one hell of a Dual team. Even without Mattox in there.

Congrats to Toure' for getting 1st team.
Mar 9, 2016 1:29pm
K

ksig489

Senior Member

943 posts
Mar 9, 2016 2:25 PM
Dust_E_Roads;1785364 wrote:I'd be with you 100% if that was even semi-frequently the case. More often than not, especially in OCC duals action, I see teams juggling their line-ups to take forfeits or to get the best matchup for their kids. I only recall a handful of times this year whereby kids bumped to take on the best guys from other teams.
What I meant was that fans want the big match ups.
Mar 9, 2016 2:25pm
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huntergreen26

Senior Member

226 posts
Mar 9, 2016 3:12 PM
The rules have been place for years and should be followed. If they are not, then this is the penalty. The bumping argument is not a good one. We have 7 dual meets in the OCC. You cannot say that more than 50% of the time in league duals you have to bump a kid up because of better matchups.

Also, how do you separate it when kids that wrestle at their correct weight class go unbeaten, but the kid that bumped did not compete on the night their teams met? Follow the rules or be OK with this result.
Mar 9, 2016 3:12pm
K

ksig489

Senior Member

943 posts
Mar 9, 2016 6:36 PM
I dont have a dog in the fight, not in the OCC...although my favorite OCC wrestler was 1st team at 113...just commenting on how everyone complains that we need to do more to make the sport fan friendly. Doing things like bumping kids around to create great match ups is good for the sport but bad for the criteria. Why not let coaches vote if you aren't going to do a tournament?
Mar 9, 2016 6:36pm
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Tony Mead

Senior Member

323 posts
Mar 10, 2016 12:04 PM
not sure about the other sports but for wrestling, the current format is not great for the sport. as a matter of fact its holding columbus back by wasting precious points. There are some good matchups that come out of them dont get me wrong. but more lopsided waste of money duals then there are good ones. With the state duals that are almost comparable to the league in the regions, it would be a good time to step up and fix some things in central ohio. or you can continue to do the same old thing over and over and over again.
Mar 10, 2016 12:04pm
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Tony Mead

Senior Member

323 posts
Mar 10, 2016 12:05 PM
p.s. pretty cool seeing the jv guy all OCC : thumbup:
Mar 10, 2016 12:05pm
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Dust_E_Roads

Senior Member

752 posts
Mar 10, 2016 1:10 PM
Tony: not quite sure what you are recommending. The OHSAA mandates that every team in the state wrestle at least 4 duals/tris. The OCC schedule includes 5 . Not a big deal and not much different from most leagues across the state. I can't see this being connected to anything "holding central ohio back. And if you are concerned about the quality of dual meet opposition Liberty faces, you could probably encourage Marinelli to enter the Patriots in the state duals. No points against the 20 point limit and very good competition.

as for " the JV guy" on All-occ .... Will he earn a letter this year ? I presume so. If so, he's not JV.
Mar 10, 2016 1:10pm
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Bluepride1990

Junior Member

12 posts
Mar 10, 2016 1:56 PM
Need to have a league tournament like every other league. Granted the Darby District is basically that but you could have division tournaments the week before sectionals and then there is no coaches and the criteria is how you places in tourney.

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Mar 10, 2016 1:56pm
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Tony Mead

Senior Member

323 posts
Mar 10, 2016 8:39 PM
Bluepride1990;1785636 wrote:Need to have a league tournament like every other league. Granted the Darby District is basically that but you could have division tournaments the week before sectionals and then there is no coaches and the criteria is how you places in tourney.

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This!

one day league round robin tourney boom its done. frees up all the other forfeit fest! then mandate state duals! I cant do anything about anyone else, i can only tell you guys to fix it, cause its broke. next years even worse, minus what looks like one division. This is just about like our country, same ole same ole, nothing improves around here, and the politics stay in place that apparently nobody voted for in the first place. I am a fan, I travel to go watch wrestling, I pay to watch wrestling. what i dont pay for is non sense. I didnt have to go to half the duals this year because they were absolutley pointless. I am not complaining cause i saved some money. but i would rather go see some wrassling!
Mar 10, 2016 8:39pm
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Bluepride1990

Junior Member

12 posts
Mar 11, 2016 9:08 AM
Still need regular season league duals and some leagues add points to tourney score based on dual results to balance the good dual team vs a good tournament team to crown the league title.

While I do not disagree about state dual need to emphasis regular league duals as well. Maybe there is a way to help ensure there is more cross over of OCC division in the state dual to minimize chance of state dual meet Wed. featuring same teams that met the previous week or the following night/week

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Mar 11, 2016 9:08am
cruiser_96's avatar

cruiser_96

Senior Member

7,536 posts
Mar 11, 2016 9:33 AM
Bluepride1990: I have heard a similar line of thought concerning duals occur, and based on those results, (some level of points) are added at the start of the tournament score. Not a terrible idea.

The points would have to be enough to warrant the addition but not enough to make a team uncatchable. I just think having more than eight teams in a bracket tournament would help a tournament-strong team more.
Mar 11, 2016 9:33am
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Dust_E_Roads

Senior Member

752 posts
Mar 11, 2016 9:34 AM
Tony Mead;1785726 wrote: one day league round robin tourney boom its done. frees up all the other forfeit fest! then mandate state duals! I cant do anything about anyone else, i can only tell you guys to fix it, cause its broke. next years even worse, minus what looks like one division. This is just about like our country, same ole same ole, nothing improves around here, and the politics stay in place that apparently nobody voted for in the first place. I am a fan, I travel to go watch wrestling, I pay to watch wrestling. what i dont pay for is non sense. I didnt have to go to half the duals this year because they were absolutley pointless. I am not complaining cause i saved some money. but i would rather go see some wrassling!
So, we cancel the OCC duals because there are too many mismatches and forfeits but then turn around and mandate that every one participates in the State duals.... which would then include a ton of mismatches and forfeits. :face palm:

Maintaining the political status quo may be one problem with this country, but so are poorly thought out "solutions" that just create more problems and unintended consequences....
Mar 11, 2016 9:34am
K

ksig489

Senior Member

943 posts
Mar 11, 2016 11:47 AM
Dust_E_Roads;1785619 wrote:Tony: not quite sure what you are recommending. The OHSAA mandates that every team in the state wrestle at least 4 duals/tris. The OCC schedule includes 5 . Not a big deal and not much different from most leagues across the state. I can't see this being connected to anything "holding central ohio back. And if you are concerned about the quality of dual meet opposition Liberty faces, you could probably encourage Marinelli to enter the Patriots in the state duals. No points against the 20 point limit and very good competition.

as for " the JV guy" on All-occ .... Will he earn a letter this year ? I presume so. If so, he's not JV.
The OHSAA does NOT mandate this. You can have a 16 point schedule that is all tournaments. You are not required to put duals/tris on your schedule.

I find it funny that for years the sport was all about sitting in a gym all day at a tournament and was extremely popular in Ohio. Now that we do all these things to shorten the events because people dont like to sit in gyms all day...there is less support for the sport. Wrestling was at its peak in Ohio in the late 80s to mid 90's in terms of fans and attendance. Then we went to pool tournaments and dual tournaments that created countless meaningless matchups and people quit watching. No one wants to sit through 4 rounds of studs padding stats on kids who should be wrestling a JV schedule. We need to go back to Bracket style, double elimination tournaments to bring some excitement back. It is not exciting to be at a tournament with 10 kids in the weight and top 8 place after 5 rounds of boring matches. Many kids never bother to get better because they never get eliminated any more. They get 40 whippings in but they still get a varsity letter and a trophy.
Mar 11, 2016 11:47am
cruiser_96's avatar

cruiser_96

Senior Member

7,536 posts
Mar 11, 2016 12:07 PM
Interesting points, ksig.
Mar 11, 2016 12:07pm
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Blast82.5

Member

75 posts
Mar 11, 2016 1:16 PM
Ksig makes some good points.

There are down sides to each type of event. For example:
- Double elim bracket tourneys give us the best kids facing off in the later rounds, but less experienced kids get only 2 or 3 matches. Coaches don't want to limit their schedule to only these types of events.
- Dual tourneys give everyone lots of matches, but don't necessarily pit the best kids against each other, and don't limit the mismatches. Hypothetical: Is it good for one's development to get killed 5 times in one day rather than 2 or 3 times??
- Duals take less time, but are subject to lineup shuffling ("strategy") that frequently reduces the competition.
- Forcing League and State duals means you've got kids wrestling the same opponents (sometimes) 4 or 5 times in a season (I used to HATE that).

I don't think there is one optimum solution. I do like tourneys that allow extra matches by re-bracketing kids based on early tourney results (pools-to-bracket, or sometimes allowing the 0-2's and 1-2's to be rebracketed for additional competition). But wrestling a bunch af extra matches requires lots of mats and space and refs and time.
Mar 11, 2016 1:16pm
K

ksig489

Senior Member

943 posts
Mar 11, 2016 6:30 PM
Send JVs to pool tournaments and bring varsity to bracket tournaments. As long as the state tournament is a bracket/double elimination I will still take our kids to a few of them.
Mar 11, 2016 6:30pm