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Seed nominations records

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K

kennypowers

Senior Member

120 posts
Feb 13, 2013 11:02 PM
If you're in a double elimination tournament, get injured in your first match and forfeit your next match without stepping on the mat, that is still a loss and should reflect on your record. I don't know, but I would assume pool tournaments are the same. Most coaches just don't count them as losses on kids records.
Feb 13, 2013 11:02pm
8

80baby

Senior Member

193 posts
Feb 13, 2013 11:06 PM
Here's what I don't understand all season long coaches arerequired to submit their roster and seeding criteria at various tournaments(large and small) and the seeding is done by the local director and staff andthey use the criteria that was submitted by the coaches to seed the tournament. So why don't we run our sectional seedingmeetings in the CD the same way? If akid has criteria over another kid who has a better record there shouldn't be acoaches vote or another coach putting his kid up for the higher seed the higherseed should go to the kid with the criteria. The only time the kid without criteria should be seeded higher is when hebeat the kid head to head with the criteria.

As for the won/loss record if a kid: if an opponent fails toreport to the table for any reason that match is counted as a forfeit.
Feb 13, 2013 11:06pm
D

Dad4Sports

Senior Member

1,779 posts
Feb 13, 2013 11:25 PM
bump_and_run;1388797 wrote:Don't get me wrong, I applaud their ability to get the most out of the scheduling rules and offer mad props to a young man who can stay healthy through all that. My "crazy" observation was more commentary on how much this sport has changed since, say, the early '80s when 30 matches a season was a lot.
No doubt about that.....now with the state duals....the theoretical maximum number of matches in a season is approaching the mid-70's!
Feb 13, 2013 11:25pm
B

Bitterrunner-up

Senior Member

632 posts
Feb 14, 2013 7:26 AM
First off, there should be no seeding meetings, period. It should all be criteria. If it's good enough for Ironman, PowerAide, Beast of the East, Brecksville, Medina and Top Gun than it should be good enough for the Westland Sectional. A Central Ohio seeding meeting is a complete cluster from begining to end and it's way more about coaches and League loyalties than it is about who the better wrestler is.
kennypowers;1388835 wrote:If you're in a double elimination tournament, get injured in your first match and forfeit your next match without stepping on the mat, that is still a loss and should reflect on your record. I don't know, but I would assume pool tournaments are the same. Most coaches just don't count them as losses on kids records.
As far as the forfeits being counted as losses, I'm from the school of thought that you have to step on the mat for a loss to be counted. And there are several examples of this that I can remember. Chris Philips comes to mind. He wrestled at Ironman his junior year and was injuried in his second round bout. He won the match but was unable to continue in the tourney. Michael Alexander from Findlay won their scheduled match by forfeit, but Phillips did not step on the mat, he then dropped down to the conso bracket where Dillon Magalski of Walsh won by injury default. Again, Phillips did not step on the mat. When you look at the State book from that year, Chris Phillips is undefeated (38-0). His loss to Ed Ruth as a sophomore is his lone defeat of his career. Here's a link to the bracket:

http://www.walshironman.com/2009/PDFBrackets.pdf
and the bracket from state that year:
http://jakeswrestling.com/documents/archive/2010D3.pdf

I've seen several similar cases, (Horne v Davis in the Sectional final of 2005, Kopp v Atienza Mentor District '89) but that one stands out. If this rule that you guys are talking about exists than no one's following it...and I'm glad they're not. Someone should have to beat you for you to lose.
Feb 14, 2013 7:26am
E

Ellison

Member

37 posts
Feb 14, 2013 8:38 AM
nykc;1388728 wrote:Yeah its insane! So a kid with 40-50 some matches can get seeded higher than a dq with a good record because according to the criteria dq status is meaningless.
2013 Centerville Division I Sectional Wrestling Tournaments (1 and 2)

Thursday, February 14, 2013
7:00 PM seed meeting at Centerville High School.
A. We will seed the top four wrestlers in each weight class based on the following criteria:
• State, District and Sectional place from 2011
• Head to head competition v. other seed nominees
• Record v. common opponents
• Current overall record
B. Brackets will be drawn during the meeting, but will not be official until after weigh-ins are official.
Feb 14, 2013 8:38am
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Feb 14, 2013 8:58 AM
80baby;1388846 wrote:Here's what I don't understand all season long coaches arerequired to submit their roster and seeding criteria at various tournaments(large and small) and the seeding is done by the local director and staff andthey use the criteria that was submitted by the coaches to seed the tournament. So why don't we run our sectional seedingmeetings in the CD the same way? If akid has criteria over another kid who has a better record there shouldn't be acoaches vote or another coach putting his kid up for the higher seed the higherseed should go to the kid with the criteria. The only time the kid without criteria should be seeded higher is when hebeat the kid head to head with the criteria.

As for the won/loss record if a kid: if an opponent fails toreport to the table for any reason that match is counted as a forfeit.
Agreed. I don't understand why the Central District struggles with this issue so much. The amount of conversation surrounding seeding in this region is incredible to me.
Feb 14, 2013 8:58am
nykc's avatar

nykc

Senior Member

276 posts
Feb 14, 2013 9:12 AM
Which in my opinion is pretty logical. That is not the case in central Ohio though apparently SQ, DQ status is pretty much worthless here.
Feb 14, 2013 9:12am
D

Dad4Sports

Senior Member

1,779 posts
Feb 14, 2013 9:58 AM
nykc;1388985 wrote:Which in my opinion is pretty logical. That is not the case in central Ohio though apparently SQ, DQ status is pretty much worthless here.
I'm not sure I follow.....at the meeting, let's just assume that a coach "puts up" a wrestler for a seed. I'm sure if the kid is a SQ, the other coaches would certainly note this. You're making it sound like the seeding here is more random. Are you maybe suggesting that there are some "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" agreements going on?

I liken this to the BCS process for college football. They don't rely 100% on the computers (criteria, if you will). The human polls are included. Isn't that similar to what the Central District coaches are doing here? The criteria, while helpful, is not foolproof. The seeding meetings allow for the human component to be utilized to possibly "fix" some of the things that a straight criteria system occasionlly allows to fall through the cracks.
Feb 14, 2013 9:58am
C

Coach Hennosy

Member

89 posts
Feb 14, 2013 9:58 AM
This thread reminds me of the movie Breakfast Club ... this will go on your permanent record.
Feb 14, 2013 9:58am
D

Dad4Sports

Senior Member

1,779 posts
Feb 14, 2013 10:02 AM
Coach Hennosy;1389026 wrote:This thread reminds me of the movie Breakfast Club ... this will go on your permanent record.
Ha Ha :thumbup:
Feb 14, 2013 10:02am
nykc's avatar

nykc

Senior Member

276 posts
Feb 14, 2013 1:35 PM
@Dad4Sports it seems to be more random here. I could give examples but whatever the truth always comes out, sometimes they are right - sometimes they are not.

I have a different gripe now. After looking at all the brackets - why do we have 4 sectionals? This is embarrassing 6-7 man brackets? Our sectionals have been so watered down it is like everyone gets a trophy now. "Congrats on your 6th place finish Mr. Sophomore - step on up and get your plaque and bracket! You sir are a warrior even though you have a 1-36 record but good on you mate"
Feb 14, 2013 1:35pm
B

Bitterrunner-up

Senior Member

632 posts
Feb 14, 2013 1:41 PM
nykc;1389213 wrote:@Dad4Sports it seems to be more random here. I could give examples but whatever the truth always comes out, sometimes they are right - sometimes they are not.

I have a different gripe now. After looking at all the brackets - why do we have 4 sectionals? This is embarrassing 6-7 man brackets? Our sectionals have been so watered down it is like everyone gets a trophy now. "Congrats on your 6th place finish Mr. Sophomore - step on up and get your plaque and bracket! You sir are a warrior even though you have a 1-36 record but good on you mate"
I'm with you. I just dug up my Sectional bracket from when I was in high school. Firestone Sectional had 14 teams.
Feb 14, 2013 1:41pm
nykc's avatar

nykc

Senior Member

276 posts
Feb 14, 2013 1:45 PM
looking at the talent pool in some of these weight classes, then the distribution across 4 sectionals:
8 - 10 solid wrestlers get out 2 - 3 per sectional
4 - decent wrestlers squeak out
2 - kids who fell into districts because they are the only two wrestling get out!!! :mad: (exaggerated I know but come on! no wonder we don't have anyone doing anything at the Schott!)
Feb 14, 2013 1:45pm
K

knightflyer150

Senior Member

491 posts
Feb 14, 2013 2:03 PM
nykc;1389224 wrote:(exaggerated I know but come on! no wonder we don't have anyone doing anything at the Schott!)
How does this affect the top four who come out of Darby?
Feb 14, 2013 2:03pm
nykc's avatar

nykc

Senior Member

276 posts
Feb 14, 2013 2:06 PM
Risk of injury on wasted matches, other than that what other benefits are there of having such over glorified and watered down sectionals?

Feb 14, 2013 2:06pm
B

bump_and_run

Senior Member

321 posts
Feb 14, 2013 2:13 PM
knightflyer150;1389236 wrote:How does this affect the top four who come out of Darby?
it probably doesn't make that much difference for most weight classes, but the argument would be that a contest that includes 16 excellent wrestlers would produce a more skilled top four than a contest that includes 10 excellent wrestlers, two average ones and four mediocre ones, "all else equal"..."in the long run"..."more often than not"...etc., etc.
Feb 14, 2013 2:13pm
C

Coach Ramirez

Senior Member

232 posts
Feb 14, 2013 2:20 PM
Bitterrunner-up;1389221 wrote:I'm with you. I just dug up my Sectional bracket from when I was in high school. Firestone Sectional had 14 teams.
Who keeps their Sectional brackets from high school?
Feb 14, 2013 2:20pm
D

Dust_E_Roads

Senior Member

752 posts
Feb 14, 2013 3:07 PM
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/1848264/2009-NCAA-Wrestling-Rules-and-Interpretations

According to NCAA rules (section 3.21), a Medical Forfeit in a dual or a tournament does NOT count on ones record. The winner of the forfeit gets credit for the win, but the loser does not take the loss. The medical has to be declared before hand.

Don't know for a fact, but I would presume that the NFHS follows NCAA rules in this regard.
Feb 14, 2013 3:07pm
B

Bitterrunner-up

Senior Member

632 posts
Feb 14, 2013 3:28 PM
Coach Ramirez;1389249 wrote:Who keeps their Sectional brackets from high school?
I have a big box of crap in my basement. Every once in a while I take it out to show my wife how that I was really something back in the day.
Feb 14, 2013 3:28pm
B

bump_and_run

Senior Member

321 posts
Feb 14, 2013 3:29 PM
Coach Ramirez;1389249 wrote:Who keeps their Sectional brackets from high school?
Bitter runner ups.
Feb 14, 2013 3:29pm
B

Bitterrunner-up

Senior Member

632 posts
Feb 14, 2013 3:48 PM
I think the correct term is Bitter runners up.
Feb 14, 2013 3:48pm
U

Underrated

Senior Member

156 posts
Feb 14, 2013 3:54 PM
nykc;1389213 wrote: I have a different gripe now. After looking at all the brackets - why do we have 4 sectionals? This is embarrassing 6-7 man brackets? Our sectionals have been so watered down it is like everyone gets a trophy now. "Congrats on your 6th place finish Mr. Sophomore - step on up and get your plaque and bracket! You sir are a warrior even though you have a 1-36 record but good on you mate"
The main problem with going back to 3 sectionals (only the second year with 4 central district sectionals) is when there is a bracket with more than 12 wrestlers you run the risk of wrestlers exceeding the 5 match rule. Granted they would have to lose their first round match and then battle back to wrestle for a place but it used to happen. I just looked at the Pick North sectional from 2009. I found two cases where it happened there. One wrestler had to forfeit the 3/4 place match without getting to wrestle for it. The difference between 3rd or 4th is a big distinction for your first round match at districts. I also found a wrestler who had to forfeit the 5/6 place match which left him without the chance to be the alternate. To avoid this all sectionals would have to be 2 day tournaments because if Central went back to 3 there would be a 14 team and 2-13 team sectionals. That would mean 2 weigh-ins for everybody to wrestle one match on Friday night.
Feb 14, 2013 3:54pm
B

bigkgizzle

Junior Member

28 posts
Feb 14, 2013 3:56 PM
We just got our kid with a 10-45 record the top seed in our sectional. Obviously that's what some people think is happening at our seeding just because coaches vote. The vote helps mainly when there are two guys that have similar records and coaches have seen wrestle. Give me a break. It's not like we seed undeserving kids. Sorry that we don't unseed a kid because he got hurt and had to forfeit? Is that what should be done? I think not.
Feb 14, 2013 3:56pm
Q

queencitybuckeye

Senior Member

7,117 posts
Feb 14, 2013 4:07 PM
Honest questions, here.

Why does this part of the state need to have the seedings "fixed" through some process not done in the rest of the state? What's unique about Central Ohio in that regard?
Feb 14, 2013 4:07pm
G

GregHines

Member

60 posts
Feb 14, 2013 4:10 PM
queencitybuckeye;1389328 wrote:Honest questions, here.

Why does this part of the state need to have the seedings "fixed" through some process not done in the rest of the state? What's unique about Central Ohio in that regard?
I think Gatsby's is what is unique about central Ohio (been going there since the late 70s).

Sorry guys, I do not mean to hijack the thread.
Feb 14, 2013 4:10pm