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Dual state tournament next year

Home ▸ Archive ▸ High School Wrestling ▸ Dual state tournament next year
C

Cthelites

Senior Member

1,951 posts
Mar 27, 2012 10:31 PM
CoachTim;1129223 wrote:the sample bracket:
http://www.fcpsports.com/Download/State_Dual_Tournament_10.19.11.pdf

I think it's a good thing. There will be adjustments. We now have a very busy schedule at the end of the year and i'm scheduling more events before Christmas.
The important thing is that everyone gets to compete instead of the calculated top 2 from your district based on last years underclassmen who qualify. Even if we only win a couple of duals and move on to week 2, it's a big team bonding event.

Remember this, the first Wednesday, 66% of the state is eliminated (4 of the 6 teams at the Regional QF are eliminated)
the second Wednesday, 75% of teams remaining get knocked off, that's 91.66% of the state eliminated after only 2 events. So it's not like everyone in Ohio is adding 4 more events.
Lets move some of the more meaningless OCC super tri's to Dec(you know the ones that end up like 62-10), then you move the 3 remaining duals earlier in Jan and you only overlap 1 week maybe?

BTW what was the Darby district underclassman points(for the old format)?
We had some discussion on this before the district. Just curious since CT brought it up.
Mar 27, 2012 10:31pm
D

double arm bars

Senior Member

142 posts
Mar 28, 2012 6:09 AM
At our end of the year meeting when it was brought up for vote 98% of the coaches or maybe even more voted in favor of it. Now they don't want it
Mar 28, 2012 6:09am
cruiser_96's avatar

cruiser_96

Senior Member

7,536 posts
Mar 28, 2012 9:23 AM
Cthelites: I spent about 5 minutes tabulating underclassmen points... And then gave up. Mainly out of frustration that it doesn't matter anymore. I really liked the old system. The only real shortcomings were it had a high dependency for a prior years results, but if you are top 8 in the state, you are most likely pretty stable as a program.

And now, all of it is washed away...

Boooooo!!!!
Mar 28, 2012 9:23am
B

Bitterrunner-up

Senior Member

632 posts
Mar 28, 2012 11:16 AM
I agree. Booooooooooooooooooooo.
Mar 28, 2012 11:16am
C

CoachTim

Member

85 posts
Mar 28, 2012 12:13 PM
At least this was voted on by coaches in OHIO. The weigh changes came from the federation and none of us had input.
1_beast;1129545 wrote:...and who wants to be wrestling top tier kids in a dual that you may end up seeing at Sectional, District and or State? CRAZY!
I as a coach do... We have a tough schedule to try to see the kids we need to beat to get where we want to go. Waynedale has a tough team, i'm sure you have a solid schedule. With all due respect your statement seems very odd to me..... ?????
And why will the duals have a different impact on D3 than D1 and D1???

And its not like it's unprecedented. Other states have been doing this for years.
Mar 28, 2012 12:13pm
1_beast's avatar

1_beast

Senior Member

5,642 posts
Mar 28, 2012 12:34 PM
CoachTim;1130005 wrote:At least this was voted on by coaches in OHIO. The weigh changes came from the federation and none of us had input.



I as a coach do... We have a tough schedule to try to see the kids we need to beat to get where we want to go. Waynedale has a tough team, i'm sure you have a solid schedule. With all due respect your statement seems very odd to me..... ?????
And why will the duals have a different impact on D3 than D1 and D1???

And its not like it's unprecedented. Other states have been doing this for years.
I wasnt too clear as I just had surgery yesterday and was still medicated.

I guess my main point was having to wrestle a bruiser couple of duals right before the tournament run with the possibility of facing the same kid 5 weeks in a row.(1. League 2. Dual 3. sectional 4. district 5 state.)

We already have that going on as my son wrestled (and lost) to the same kid 4 weeks in a row just this season. My son finished 8th and his rival 5th.

The idea of going hard late season is my concern...a week of "healing up" is the way many teams schedule before the tournament run.
Mar 28, 2012 12:34pm
O

Ozzie8383

Senior Member

125 posts
Mar 28, 2012 12:41 PM
The purpose of this is to grow our sport and to grow support for our sport. We have to find ways to get student bodies involved and young kids (Middle School and Youth kids) involved in the excitment of the sport.

The "wrestling cult" is willing to sit in a gym to watch a tournament all day, but the majority of the fans that can help build the popularity of the sport are not willing to do that... They are, however, willing to sit in a gym for two hours and root on their communities team... Hence the importance of meaningful duals.

While the chances of anyone beating Saint Ed in a dual in D1 is minimal, a community will still get excited about their team wrestling in a Regional Finals match. Think about a High School football team playing a rival in a Regional Final game and how big that is for the community; I think it is important to try to generate that same excitment.

I know that majority of the "wrestling cult" understands the stress of making weight more; but we have got to get out of our own way... We need to make adjustments to grow our sport, not run it into the ground. This new Dual Meet State Tournament could be a way or "the" way to grow excitment. Please give it a chance and support it.

I think the obvious adjustment that needs to be made is beginning conference competition earlier. More matches have to take place in December and early January. I hope that the A.D.s and Coaches of the O.C.C. can get together to make this work. I know that I and and will be doing everything in my power to help make the proper adjustments.
Mar 28, 2012 12:41pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Mar 28, 2012 12:49 PM
At the end of the day it is a team sport and winning a team dual is a greater accomplishment in my mind than winning an individual tournament.

I love seeing a State Championship based on the team progerssing in a dual format. I would find it more accomplished than a team being awared a State Championship based on cumulative individual tournament points.
Mar 28, 2012 12:49pm
J

Jmar25

Senior Member

438 posts
Mar 28, 2012 6:53 PM
Ozzie8383;1130027 wrote:The purpose of this is to grow our sport and to grow support for our sport. We have to find ways to get student bodies involved and young kids (Middle School and Youth kids) involved in the excitment of the sport.

The "wrestling cult" is willing to sit in a gym to watch a tournament all day, but the majority of the fans that can help build the popularity of the sport are not willing to do that... They are, however, willing to sit in a gym for two hours and root on their communities team... Hence the importance of meaningful duals.

While the chances of anyone beating Saint Ed in a dual in D1 is minimal, a community will still get excited about their team wrestling in a Regional Finals match. Think about a High School football team playing a rival in a Regional Final game and how big that is for the community; I think it is important to try to generate that same excitment.

I know that majority of the "wrestling cult" understands the stress of making weight more; but we have got to get out of our own way... We need to make adjustments to grow our sport, not run it into the ground. This new Dual Meet State Tournament could be a way or "the" way to grow excitment. Please give it a chance and support it.
I do not want to admit this, but wrestling is still a niche sport. This format will not change that or most dual meets would be packed already especially if you believe this format brings in casual fans. Most school events are pushing 6 dollars to attend. Do you want to throw down an additional 6 bucks per person for a sport that is a clear niche or "cult" sport that demands some basic knowledge to follow? (number 1 complaint from new attendees I would believe) This won't grow it anymore than the UFC surge has or WWE.

On top of this, your now adding an additional trip to Columbus for some schools and fans. (Don't we *ape our fans enough as is with our multiple charging gym clearing sessions and $75 dollar session packets for states?) What will this cost our new fan base? Have they listed prices? You know that OHSAA will make a mandatory price and on top of that take their cut as well....

Sorry. The system wasn't broke. Spin it anyway you want but this will not add numbers and growth to the sport. It is another way for OHSAA to make their money off of the sport and not to mention to further CONFUSE THE NEW FANS THIS WILL CREATE by having a team champion and an individual team champion. (Who is the real championship team now???) They should be working on ways to improve the current format ( nice try with the spotlight idea but fell short) not changing it just to change it and make more money off of it.
Mar 28, 2012 6:53pm
1_beast's avatar

1_beast

Senior Member

5,642 posts
Mar 28, 2012 7:06 PM
Con_Alma;1130035 wrote:At the end of the day it is a team sport and winning a team dual is a greater accomplishment in my mind than winning an individual tournament.

I love seeing a State Championship based on the team progerssing in a dual format. I would find it more accomplished than a team being awared a State Championship based on cumulative individual tournament points.
Already have that in the State Duals....It seems to work fine!
Mar 28, 2012 7:06pm
D

double arm bars

Senior Member

142 posts
Mar 28, 2012 7:57 PM
2003 attendance records all sessions 75,582 2012 attendance records 59,946 a 16,000 drop in attendance will do strange things.
Mar 28, 2012 7:57pm
C

Cthelites

Senior Member

1,951 posts
Mar 28, 2012 8:03 PM
Wow! I cant believe how strong the push back on this is.
I think it is pretty neat and alot of other states do this so its not a virgin concept.
I think some of the non elite kids will get jacked for this if they can make it to regionals...or whatever and maybe, just maybe the student body can get behind it if you can get advance. Nitch or not, maybe this could help.

We had a great end of the league dual this yr with Davidson that came down to the last match to decide the OCC champs.
Although the crowd wasnt big like basketball(altho i could argue about some of Darby's bball crowds are), it was the biggest dual meet crowd i have seen in hilliard(since I have followed the program) and the atmosphere was great!
Many of my kids' friends' Dads/parents came to watch. The feedback that they gave me was fantastic. Most had never seen a wrestling match before and had no idea how exciting it would be. Maybe we could get that in the regionals!
Maybe its a pipe dream??? IDK, but it would be nice to see more recognition going to these kids who bust their ARSE off in more school settings

I can see some of the challenges until adjustments are made.
Maybe if there is overlap with league duals then you give a plus 2,3,or 4lbs scratch(not sure if that is allowable, but maybe the leagues could adopt???) Maybe it takes a couple of yrs til it gets ironed out.

If so many are so against it and dont want to do it, then just send out your JV team.
Im sure they would love a shot at some Varsity match time and it would help your depth for the future. Im sure that would send the message! lol
Mar 28, 2012 8:03pm
Q

queencitybuckeye

Senior Member

7,117 posts
Mar 28, 2012 9:38 PM
Please excuse the dumb question, but is participation required?
Mar 28, 2012 9:38pm
1_beast's avatar

1_beast

Senior Member

5,642 posts
Mar 28, 2012 10:26 PM
double arm bars;1130340 wrote:2003 attendance records all sessions 75,582 2012 attendance records 59,946 a 16,000 drop in attendance will do strange things.
I have to strongly believe that attendance has declined due to the economy and OHSAA passion for continuing to raise the prices.

One session at The Schott was more expensive then a Championship football game! Now multiply that by 5 for 1 weekend! Then multiply again for the members of your family.

People are struggling and prices are on the rise....not fan friendly. A family of 5 = 250.00+ just for admission. CRAZY!!!!

On a side note...Good Luck getting a good seat. You will usually end up in the 300's unless you buy off a scalper....then you are paying even more!
Mar 28, 2012 10:26pm
1_beast's avatar

1_beast

Senior Member

5,642 posts
Mar 28, 2012 10:32 PM
Cthelites;1130347 wrote:Wow! I cant believe how strong the push back on this is.
I think it is pretty neat and alot of other states do this so its not a virgin concept.
I think some of the non elite kids will get jacked for this if they can make it to regionals...or whatever and maybe, just maybe the student body can get behind it if you can get advance. Nitch or not, maybe this could help.

We had a great end of the league dual this yr with Davidson that came down to the last match to decide the OCC champs.
Although the crowd wasnt big like basketball(altho i could argue about some of Darby's bball crowds are), it was the biggest dual meet crowd i have seen in hilliard(since I have followed the program) and the atmosphere was great!
Many of my kids' friends' Dads/parents came to watch. The feedback that they gave me was fantastic. Most had never seen a wrestling match before and had no idea how exciting it would be. Maybe we could get that in the regionals!
Maybe its a pipe dream??? IDK, but it would be nice to see more recognition going to these kids who bust their ARSE off in more school settings

I can see some of the challenges until adjustments are made.
Maybe if there is overlap with league duals then you give a plus 2,3,or 4lbs scratch(not sure if that is allowable, but maybe the leagues could adopt???) Maybe it takes a couple of yrs til it gets ironed out.

If so many are so against it and dont want to do it, then just send out your JV team.
Im sure they would love a shot at some Varsity match time and it would help your depth for the future. Im sure that would send the message! lol
Perhaps to get the student body exposed and involved....some of these duals could be held DURING school hours.... (i know there is no chance of that happening)

Wrestling remains a cult, those not interested will continue their tongue in cheek comments. It's a tough sell.

I will tell you that Waynedale made believers and added fans this year. The success of the TEAM brought a huge contingent to the Schott and many who have never been were simply overwelmed and cannot believe what they have been missing! Of course winning helps! Many people made the statement that they definately will be back next year. (and honestly, traditionally, Waynedale usually brings a descent fanbase every we go all season long)

Edit: note on the student body facet, at Waynedale, if we send 5 or more to State...The School will excuse students to attend Thursdays session...we had over 60 students bussed down to the Schott. Many kids enjoyed walking into that building with so much history that may never of had the chance otherwise. (must hand in ticket at the school to be excused)
Mar 28, 2012 10:32pm
D

double arm bars

Senior Member

142 posts
Mar 29, 2012 5:35 AM
You want to move some of the more meanigless OCC tris to December so you can replace them with more meanigless duals and tris and January or February. I can't imagine there being many relevant duals until the second or third round. I would like this better if they had a qualifier or some kind of measurement to set up the brackets better and get teams that desreve to be in there. If they use a system like football has then it would make more sense. A meanigless state dual would be if they brackets are paired for Central and Southwest to meet in the finals and one of them gets to meet StEds in the finals. O

Economy bad or not they haven't slowed down their pace. Got to raise prices or get new stream
Mar 29, 2012 5:35am
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Mar 29, 2012 5:56 AM
1_beast;1130289 wrote:Already have that in the State Duals....It seems to work fine!
I don't disagree. This is an expansion of that.
Mar 29, 2012 5:56am
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Mar 29, 2012 5:58 AM
queencitybuckeye;1130449 wrote:Please excuse the dumb question, but is participation required?
That's a very interesting question. It's similar to if a school would be required to participate in the basketball sectional playoffs. I don't know the answer.
Mar 29, 2012 5:58am
F

FSUBIGMAC

Member

47 posts
Mar 29, 2012 8:10 AM
Con_Alma;1130035 wrote:At the end of the day it is a team sport and winning a team dual is a greater accomplishment in my mind than winning an individual tournament.

I love seeing a State Championship based on the team progerssing in a dual format. I would find it more accomplished than a team being awared a State Championship based on cumulative individual tournament points.
Since when is it a team sport? If it was a team sport then why do we bother giving out an indivudal championship awards? Louden Swain said it best, "When you're out there on the mat and it's just you and your opponent, there isn't a whole hell of a lot you're team can do for you, now is there Otto?" Just sayin.

I will add this, I do like how the dual format brings more of a team aspect into account. It won't be about who has the 4 or 5 best superstars. It will now test the depth of a team at various weight, and will also force the coaches to make some bold moves along the way for the betterment of the TEAM. Should be interesting.
Mar 29, 2012 8:10am
J

Jmar25

Senior Member

438 posts
Mar 29, 2012 8:39 AM
double arm bars;1130640 wrote:You want to move some of the more meanigless OCC tris to December so you can replace them with more meanigless duals and tris and January or February. I can't imagine there being many relevant duals until the second or third round. I would like this better if they had a qualifier or some kind of measurement to set up the brackets better and get teams that desreve to be in there. If they use a system like football has then it would make more sense. A meanigless state dual would be if they brackets are paired for Central and Southwest to meet in the finals and one of them gets to meet StEds in the finals. O

Economy bad or not they haven't slowed down their pace. Got to raise prices or get new stream
I might be more apt to like this if a system like football was in place... To qualify your team must wrestle a specific amount of duals before second monday of January... Say... 10... Then create a criteria to pick 4 teams in each district. Have all four of them wrestle each other. Top 2 move on to the state part of it with the winner getting a 1 seed. .I would still like to see this done at the beginning of the new year (January) over a two week period. Then you could recognize the teams at THE STATE TOURNAMENTS.

The uniqueness of the wrestling tournament makes this great. Next to track, it is the only sport that determines the team champion by the performances of each individual. (much easier to follow than track as well) You want to win the tournament? Make all of your kids better and preform when it really matters and you'll be rewarded. It's unfortunate that you might bring 6 kids down and only one place while a team of 3 or 4 win matches and the tournament, but those kids( and their training partners, we know this sport takes a village on competition days) deserve it more than those 6.
Mar 29, 2012 8:39am
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Mar 29, 2012 10:18 AM
FSUBIGMAC;1130675 wrote:Since when is it a team sport? If it was a team sport then why do we bother giving out an indivudal championship awards? Louden Swain said it best, "When you're out there on the mat and it's just you and your opponent, there isn't a whole hell of a lot you're team can do for you, now is there Otto?" Just sayin.

I will add this, I do like how the dual format brings more of a team aspect into account. It won't be about who has the 4 or 5 best superstars. It will now test the depth of a team at various weight, and will also force the coaches to make some bold moves along the way for the betterment of the TEAM. Should be interesting.
??? Since when? I believe it has always been a team sport in Ohio. I don't believe there was ever a time that it wasn't a team sport. Cross Country is a team sport who also has athletes competing individually on behalf of their team.

I don't know what you mean when you say, "Just sayin." "Just sayin" as opposed to what?
Mar 29, 2012 10:18am
P

Pompero Firpo

Member

48 posts
Mar 29, 2012 10:50 AM
Has anyone seen how the regions are divided up?
Mar 29, 2012 10:50am
F

FSUBIGMAC

Member

47 posts
Mar 29, 2012 11:04 AM
Con_Alma;1130775 wrote:??? Since when? I believe it has always been a team sport in Ohio. I don't believe there was ever a time that it wasn't a team sport. Cross Country is a team sport who also has athletes competing individually on behalf of their team.

I don't know what you mean when you say, "Just sayin." "Just sayin" as opposed to what?

My argument is that it is not a team sport because you are not relying on your teamates for sucess in competition. Ultimately, it is an individual sport where the success of the individual reflects on behalf of the team. Case in point, Monroeville. Without the Fantastic 4, as individuals, there is no team sucess. Also, think about the Olympics. Yes, Jordan Burroughs wrestles for USA, but "TEAM USA" is not the one out there wrestling, Jordan Burroughs is. Team success in wrestling is solely driven by individual performance. Make sense?
Mar 29, 2012 11:04am
B

Bitterrunner-up

Senior Member

632 posts
Mar 29, 2012 11:14 AM
I've been around this sport in one way or another for about 35 years. I have never met a casual wrestling fan. Any changes to the sport that are implimented for the purpose of bringing in casual wrestling fans will fail, because they don't exist.
Mar 29, 2012 11:14am
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Mar 29, 2012 11:32 AM
FSUBIGMAC;1130821 wrote:My argument is that it is not a team sport because you are not relying on your teamates for sucess in competition. Ultimately, it is an individual sport where the success of the individual reflects on behalf of the team. Case in point, Monroeville. Without the Fantastic 4, as individuals, there is no team sucess. Also, think about the Olympics. Yes, Jordan Burroughs wrestles for USA, but "TEAM USA" is not the one out there wrestling, Jordan Burroughs is. Team success in wrestling is solely driven by individual performance. Make sense?
You certainly rely upon your teammates to win the team competitions. I don't believe an individual has ever won the team title.

Chris Phillips would not have won the team trophy alone for Monroeville...nor would either of the Steibers, nor Tessari. It took multiple teammates.

I agree that team success is driven by individual performances but it's the cumulative performance of multiple individuals that earn team wins.
Mar 29, 2012 11:32am