FSUBIGMAC;1130821 wrote:My argument is that it is not a team sport because you are not relying on your teamates for sucess in competition. Ultimately, it is an individual sport where the success of the individual reflects on behalf of the team. Case in point, Monroeville. Without the Fantastic 4, as individuals, there is no team sucess. Also, think about the Olympics. Yes, Jordan Burroughs wrestles for USA, but "TEAM USA" is not the one out there wrestling, Jordan Burroughs is. Team success in wrestling is solely driven by individual performance. Make sense?

Agree with this. It is also pushed this way from a marketing standpoint. "Mano a Mano" and all the other sayings used. It takes a village to create a wrestler but at the end of the day only the individual can create success. Sure we talk about team goals and the St. Ed's/Grahams and so on... but ultimately when you talk about the sport it comes back to individual achievements. If I'm not mistaken I believe the original purpose of creating wrestling, pancrease, and all the other forms that led to modern day wrestling was to find out who the toughest individual was?!?! Am I correct with that line of thinking?

Con_Alma;1130855 wrote:You certainly rely upon your teammates to win the team competitions. I don't believe an individual has ever won the team title.

Chris Phillips would not have won the team trophy alone for Monroeville...nor would either of the Steibers, nor Tessari. It took multiple teammates.

I agree that team success is driven by individual performances but it's the cumulative performance of multiple individuals that earn team wins.

As golf is played in Ohio high schools, how do you classify that? A team or individual event?

Jmar25;1130870 wrote:As golf is played in Ohio high schools, how do you classify that? A team or individual event?

Very similar as cross country, track and wrestling. They are indeed teams sports and are addressed as such in the OHSAA annual coaches information provided.

Con_Alma;1130872 wrote:Very similar as cross country, track and wrestling. They are indeed teams sports and are addressed as such in the OHSAA annual coaches information provided.

Here is the difference I see... In golf, as a team your overall performance can push you and your teammates into the next round of state competition... Despite members of your team not being as good as other golfers... Some of those golfers that are not in the top whatever don't get to go despite having lower scores than some of those who do go. Correct? Cross country I believe does the same... Team advancement = team sport.

Track and Wrestling do not do this. The individual represents the school and earns team points for his school. . So I will concede that it isn't a "true team champion" format, but that isn't why these sports were created. They were created to celebrate the individual's achievements.

That's the point with regards to wrestling. This team dual championship enables everyone to compete as a team working towards the State title.

In the past the dual championship schools were based on the individual tournament scores. A great dual team is not always the same as a great tournament team.

Jmar25;1130891 wrote:... but that isn't why these sports were created. They were created to celebrate the individual's achievements.

????

Yeah, we just completely disagree on this point. These sports were not "created" to celebrate individual's achievements. The individual tournament might have been created to celebrate such but the addition of the sport to High School was hardly done so that we could celebrate individual's achievements.

Con_Alma;1130900 wrote:That's the point with regards to wrestling. This team dual championship enables everyone to compete as a team working towards the State title.

In the past the dual championship schools were based on the individual tournament scores. A great dual team is not always the same as a great tournament team.

That's the point with regards to wrestling. This team dual championship enables everyone to compete as a team working towards the State title.

In the past the dual championship schools were based on the individual tournament scores. A great dual team is not always the same as a great tournament team.

We have that already though. We do it in January. The only ones that are complaining are the teams that are left out. Now we want to create another (by replacing the old I understand this) and sanction the event (OHSAA! MONEY MONEY MONEY WE FEEL LEFT OUT TOO!) and oh... by the way... we're still going to keep score at the individual tournament as well and create more confusion by crowing a team champion twice?!?! Yes, that makes perfect sense.

Clearly there needs to be more clarification. I'm not in the know about it at all. There is a lot of mixed information coming out from meetings I've been in and heard and from coaches and officials. So... Who knows. But the old system in place was fine. It wasn't until Monroeville came along and won that the argument got much more vocal because some other teams got their feelings hurt and were embarrassed. Call me a traditionalist if you will but what we had was perfectly fine. (I was against 7th and 8th place in a 16 man tournament)It was changed to appease those who felt slighted and for more profit.

As for the second post. I was referring to the creation of these activities. As in the day of the Roman civilization. When they ran the races to see who could run the fastest, throw the farthest, win in hand to hand combat. It eventually evolved into competitions between neighboring communities and a team against team atmosphere was created.

Wrestling in high school celebrates the individual more than any other sport I know. Parade of Champions anyone???

1_beast;1130532 wrote:I have to strongly believe that attendance has declined due to the economy and OHSAA passion for continuing to raise the prices.

One session at The Schott was more expensive then a Championship football game! Now multiply that by 5 for 1 weekend! Then multiply again for the members of your family.

People are struggling and prices are on the rise....not fan friendly. A family of 5 = 250.00+ just for admission. CRAZY!!!!

On a side note...Good Luck getting a good seat. You will usually end up in the 300's unless you buy off a scalper....then you are paying even more!

I love it how it's always blamed on the economy. People who come to this event, know when the event is. So if they want to come and they may be tight on money then they have the opportunity to save a few months out. It isn't that hard. It isn't totally the economy. There were a lot bigger and better names at the state tournament back in 2003 rather than 2012. I don't see how it will have a effect on the team race for d3 and not the other divisions. Maybe Waynedale is worried they wouldn't win anymore team titles??? lol. They have a good program and I think either way will always be tough.

I do agree with you on the rest thing. I think there should be some other way to incorporate this through out the season.

Bottom line. It's an adjustment. It's new. People like stuff the same way and the same routine. I'm sure everyone complained when it went from 8 man brackets or follow your man. Some liked it, some didn't, but they all adapted and adjusted to it. All well. I think it is a great thing. Does it take longer through out the season. Of coarse. Plus to that is you get a few more matchs. Also a plus is now every team has a chance to compete. Who cares about the underclassmen thing. This is a much better system. More matches!!!!! And everyone gets to try and prove where they are!!!

Con_Alma;1130904 wrote:????

Yeah, we just completely disagree on this point. These sports were not "created" to celebrate individual's achievements. The individual tournament might have been created to celebrate such but the addition of the sport to High School was hardly done so that we could celebrate individual's achievements.

Are you kidding? The whole basis of the sport is who is the best man at each INDIVIDUAL weight class. The same way the Olympics are held, the pinnacle of the sport might I add. They don't keep team score at the Olympics (I don't think), they award the INDIVIDUAL champion. I bet if you go ask any state champion if they would rather have a state championship or a team title, I bet you would find that most, if not all would say they wouldn't trade their individual title for a team title (unless they were Graham or Ed's going for some rediculous team record). IT IS WHY WE WRESTLE!!!! TO BE THE BEST AGAINST ANOTHER OPPONENT, NOT THE OTHER TEAM!!!! Can you honestly say that you got into wrestling because you wanted to win a team title?

Bitterrunner-up;1130823 wrote:I've been around this sport in one way or another for about 35 years. I have never met a casual wrestling fan. Any changes to the sport that are implimented for the purpose of bringing in casual wrestling fans will fail, because they don't exist.

AMEN to that!

Jmar25;1130957 wrote:We have that already though. We do it in January. The only ones that are complaining are the teams that are left out. Now we want to create another (by replacing the old I understand this) and sanction the event (OHSAA! MONEY MONEY MONEY WE FEEL LEFT OUT TOO!) and oh... by the way... we're still going to keep score at the individual tournament as well and create more confusion by crowing a team champion twice?!?! Yes, that makes perfect sense.

Clearly there needs to be more clarification. I'm not in the know about it at all. There is a lot of mixed information coming out from meetings I've been in and heard and from coaches and officials. So... Who knows. But the old system in place was fine. It wasn't until Monroeville came along and won that the argument got much more vocal because some other teams got their feelings hurt and were embarrassed. Call me a traditionalist if you will but what we had was perfectly fine. (I was against 7th and 8th place in a 16 man tournament)It was changed to appease those who felt slighted and for more profit.

As for the second post. I was referring to the creation of these activities. As in the day of the Roman civilization. When they ran the races to see who could run the fastest, throw the farthest, win in hand to hand combat. It eventually evolved into competitions between neighboring communities and a team against team atmosphere was created.

Wrestling in high school celebrates the individual more than any other sport I know. Parade of Champions anyone???

Yes wrestling celebrates the individual. It also acknowledges teams as team champions as well. I don't really think any teams that didn't make the state duals were complaining. I think yes they are trying to make more money. But what smart business man or woman wouldn't??? If you wouldn't then you're a IDIOT!!! Does it give the teams who probably don't have enough points scored by underclassmen a chance. Yes! The teams that always score the point and qualify should not be worried. IF the old system worked so well then it should just play out the right way in theory. Correct? Yes.... I mean i'm sure there are going to be some upsets. I think this gives you a true DUAL team champion! Some teams are much better Dual teams than they're tournament teams. Take Teays Valley 2008 for instance. Or even Pick north a few years ago, and teams like fairfield. Fairfield is always tough tough tough in duals.

FSUBIGMAC;1130977 wrote:Are you kidding? The whole basis of the sport is who is the best man at each INDIVIDUAL weight class. The same way the Olympics are held, the pinnacle of the sport might I add. They don't keep team score at the Olympics (I don't think), they award the INDIVIDUAL champion. I bet if you go ask any state champion if they would rather have a state championship or a team title, I bet you would find that most, if not all would say they wouldn't trade their individual title for a team title (unless they were Graham or Ed's going for some rediculous team record). IT IS WHY WE WRESTLE!!!! TO BE THE BEST AGAINST ANOTHER OPPONENT, NOT THE OTHER TEAM!!!! Can you honestly say that you got into wrestling because you wanted to win a team title?

I totally agree with that!!! I could care less if they even really kept team score each year. But it is what it is man. When I wrestled I practiced everyday to win a state title. I didn't practice to win a team title. Now is wrestling a team sport. In some aspect yes. The comeradery, and the togetherness of you and your drill partners and team mates. But louden swain said it best!

I remember when this was presented at the Central District Coaches meeting and one of the coaches actually said "This format would allow EVERYONE a shot at a team state title." That was when they lost me...D1 and D2 are already decided. NO ONE in those divisions will be able to beat the big 2. D3 will be the only one that is interesting, but ultimately, it will likely come down to the same 8 teams who would have been in the state duals under the old format, which was done in a single day, and not right before a post season run.

This is nothing but change for the sake of change...which only makes things worse.

FSUBIGMAC;1130977 wrote:Are you kidding? The whole basis of the sport is who is the best man at each INDIVIDUAL weight class. The same way the Olympics are held, the pinnacle of the sport might I add. They don't keep team score at the Olympics (I don't think), they award the INDIVIDUAL champion. I bet if you go ask any state champion if they would rather have a state championship or a team title, I bet you would find that most, if not all would say they wouldn't trade their individual title for a team title (unless they were Graham or Ed's going for some rediculous team record). IT IS WHY WE WRESTLE!!!! TO BE THE BEST AGAINST ANOTHER OPPONENT, NOT THE OTHER TEAM!!!! Can you honestly say that you got into wrestling because you wanted to win a team title?

That is not the whole basis of the sport.

The rules of this sport don't exist based on the opinions of the participants so asking why to the kids is a little silly in my mind.

It has been scored as a team sport since being a part of the OHSAA. Why people choose to do it is up to them.

USMCdevil2005;1130993 wrote:Yes wrestling celebrates the individual. It also acknowledges teams as team champions as well. I don't really think any teams that didn't make the state duals were complaining. I think yes they are trying to make more money. But what smart business man or woman wouldn't??? If you wouldn't then you're a IDIOT!!! Does it give the teams who probably don't have enough points scored by underclassmen a chance. Yes! The teams that always score the point and qualify should not be worried. IF the old system worked so well then it should just play out the right way in theory. Correct? Yes.... I mean i'm sure there are going to be some upsets. I think this gives you a true DUAL team champion! Some teams are much better Dual teams than they're tournament teams. Take Teays Valley 2008 for instance. Or even Pick north a few years ago, and teams like fairfield. Fairfield is always tough tough tough in duals.

I think Ksig kind of proved my point. I may not have worded it as I was thinking it. The new format allows ALMOST EVERYONE a shot. (8 member min. required) They may not have been upset they didn't make the state duals but there were some upset folks that Monroeville won a team title with only 4 wrestlers and that is a fact. That is when this idea really gained momentum. That is a bogus reason to do this. Especially if they plan on having two teams take home team titles. I'm really interested if that is how it will actually work because I swear that it was stated that the purpose of this was to establish a "TRUE TEAM CHAMPION". It was two or three years ago and I might be mistaken though. It will play out but as we know, we're a competitve bunch of people. We'll moan and moan and then go out and take on the new challenge. So... we will see yes...

My money issue is this... OHSAA let the coaches association run the state duals. They were gracious enough to not have it count for any season points. Now that they see that it is a money making opportunity. (not sure it will be unless they are getting St. John's cheap) They are scrapping the current system in place instead of improving. Wreaking havoc on teams schedules and established tournaments (basically anything from the middle of January on that might make some additional revenue for a school or league) and squeeze every bit of money we can out of the fans, schools, and parents.

I'm more unhappy about how they went about it, scheduled it, and will run it then making money. Financial trouble throughout the school systems in a sport that doesn't make much money for most schools. They should be running it more along the lines of how the NFL does business. They don't try and sabotage the teams, ultimately they work together with each other to ensure the success of all the franchises. Also it is a non-profit organization correct? If I'm right I'm interested in where this additional money will go? To the ref's? (HA HA HA) The participating schools additional traveling expenses?

Hopefully this clarifies it more and I'm sorry if I've been unclear on my position.

FSUBIGMAC;1130977 wrote:... They don't keep team score at the Olympics (I don't think), they award the INDIVIDUAL champion. ...

I wasn't aware they wrestled folk-style in the Olympics. Hmmmm.

High School wrestling sanction by the OHSAA is a team sport. Whether we act like it or not. Whether people participate because it has individual accolades or not. The school has a team that is scored as a team. To suggest it is not a team is just inaccurate...no matter how we feel about it.

In addition, there's no logical reason from a competitive standpoint now to have the individual tournament have multiple divisions. If we really wrestle to see who the best is in a particular weight class, the multiple division format is counterproductive.

USMCdevil2005;1130970 wrote:I love it how it's always blamed on the economy. People who come to this event, know when the event is. So if they want to come and they may be tight on money then they have the opportunity to save a few months out. It isn't that hard. It isn't totally the economy. There were a lot bigger and better names at the state tournament back in 2003 rather than 2012. I don't see how it will have a effect on the team race for d3 and not the other divisions. Maybe Waynedale is worried they wouldn't win anymore team titles??? lol. They have a good program and I think either way will always be tough.

I do agree with you on the rest thing. I think there should be some other way to incorporate this through out the season.

Bottom line. It's an adjustment. It's new. People like stuff the same way and the same routine. I'm sure everyone complained when it went from 8 man brackets or follow your man. Some liked it, some didn't, but they all adapted and adjusted to it. All well. I think it is a great thing. Does it take longer through out the season. Of coarse. Plus to that is you get a few more matchs. Also a plus is now every team has a chance to compete. Who cares about the underclassmen thing. This is a much better system. More matches!!!!! And everyone gets to try and prove where they are!!!

Jaggers, both Palmers, both Stiebers, phillips....lol the names have been as big since 2003 as ever....perhaps not this year, but the steady decline since 2k3 is obviously not due to lack of big names.

It's not a matter of "knowing" that the tournament is in March....some Families flat out don't have it it. It dont matter if they save or not....these are the same families that are on unemployment, welfare, reduced/free school lunches. do not have family vacations....its just a fact of life.

Waynedale worried they wont win anymore team titles...another funny. This year is the 1st title EVER in ANY sport Waynedale has won State Title in.

More matches....If you schedule correctly we had a potential of 63 matches this year on our schedule (had we not had a cancellation due to the one snow storm...lol) Look at Archbolds records....the potential is there to get plenty of matches.

1_beast;1131105 wrote:Jaggers, both Palmers, both Stiebers, phillips....lol the names have been as big since 2003 as ever....perhaps not this year, but the steady decline since 2k3 is obviously not due to lack of big names.

It's not a matter of "knowing" that the tournament is in March....some Families flat out don't have it it. It dont matter if they save or not....these are the same families that are on unemployment, welfare, reduced/free school lunches. do not have family vacations....its just a fact of life.

Waynedale worried they wont win anymore team titles...another funny. This year is the 1st title EVER in ANY sport Waynedale has won State Title in.

More matches....If you schedule correctly we had a potential of 63 matches this year on our schedule (had we not had a cancellation due to the one snow storm...lol) Look at Archbolds records....the potential is there to get plenty of matches.

Indeed. It always cracks me up when we get to sectionals and you see some teams where their kids have 40-50 matches under their belt...while other teams have 10-20. Some teams know how to schedule (or care enough about their program to give them as many opportunities as possible). Others don't. No real excuses this past season for not having a good schedule, as the weather was more mild than any winter in recent history. What...one or two weekends all season long were compromised by winter conditions?

Totally right nobody will compete with Eds and Graham in DI and DII. They should bring the three divisions together for the "team title." If you are the best "team" in the state over three divisions your likely to be the best at the individual tournament in your own division, and it would give Eds and Graham a challenge on their way to the state title, to see who is really the best wrestling team inOhio, not just DI Ohio or DII Ohio.

Eds and Graham dual every year and we already know the results of that. Eds was the best team in Ohio this year and usually is the best 8 out of 10 years. Everybody knows who has the best teams year in and year out. If it's a good thing it will stay and if it's not it will go.

ready112;1131258 wrote:Totally right nobody will compete with Eds and Graham in DI and DII. They should bring the three divisions together for the "team title." If you are the best "team" in the state over three divisions your likely to be the best at the individual tournament in your own division, and it would give Eds and Graham a challenge on their way to the state title, to see who is really the best wrestling team inOhio, not just DI Ohio or DII Ohio.

Will CVCA ever gain the horses to run with Graham?

If Graham comes back to the pack then others will challenge but right now that's not happening. Claymont because they always have a balanced dual team is the best hope to upset Graham in a dual they nearly did it this year.

Can't say I've ever had a kid say that his goal for the season was to win a team championship trophy in each tournament during the season. Most say that they want to do something on the individual side of things, such as go to state, place at state, win state, get 40 wins, etc. It's an individual sport in the kids eyes.
Coaches like to bring home the team trophies every weekend to decorate their trophy case.
I wish that we still weren't required to keep the 4 duals during the season. If we're gonna do the state duals, then we should only have to do 3 required dual meets during the season.

I disagree with those of you who say there isn't a "casual fan". There is and can be more: the student.

I watched 200 Orange kids that know NOTHING about hockey (hell, I know nothing about hockey and I was there) at our state's "Frozen Four". End of season tournaments that advance...and don't take all day....do strange things to students. I think it will be a draw and it is a model that has worked in other states.

JonAlder;1131352 wrote:Can't say I've ever had a kid say that his goal for the season was to win a team championship trophy in each tournament during the season. Most say that they want to do something on the individual side of things, such as go to state, place at state, win state, get 40 wins, etc. It's an individual sport in the kids eyes.
Coaches like to bring home the team trophies every weekend to decorate their trophy case.
I wish that we still weren't required to keep the 4 duals during the season. If we're gonna do the state duals, then we should only have to do 3 required dual meets during the season.

I can't say that I've ever heard of a kid's goal as winning a team championship either and I do think that one of the best things about wrestling is that you can achieve your personal goals regardless of how strong your team is overall. However, if you listened to the interviews of the Penn State wrestlers post finals matches, they were all about the team and winning their own matches with the goal of helping the team win. It was very interesting, very unusual and I know that collegiate wrestling on a whole different level in almost every way, but the sentiment is not isolated to the college level.

The commentators kept talking about how Sanderson has created a "whole team" focus for the wrestlers as well as the PSU community. You can't argue with his success.