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Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

Home ▸ Archive ▸ Politics ▸ Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!
CenterBHSFan's avatar

CenterBHSFan

333 - I'm only half evil

6,115 posts
Feb 15, 2011 8:44 PM
I'm glad your union does that, Gblock.

The bad thing is, as somebody already stated, that it's the unions (sometimes just minute geography) that push and push and push until the back's broke that leaves a sour taste in everybody else's mouth that cannot be extinguished.
*EDIT
This stirs the feelings of distrust. Once people don't trust or believe in you anymore, you're done.

Not to mention the fact that between legislation and the EPA, there's really not any need for unions that there was many years ago. Like I said before, it's well nigh time for unioners to let go of the past and look toward the future - or get left behind. Which this bill is a sure sign of.
Who knows? It might not even pass. But, my bet's that it keeps being brought to the table to eventually be passed.
Feb 15, 2011 8:44pm
B

Bigdogg

Senior Member

1,429 posts
Feb 15, 2011 9:36 PM
My first job out of college was working in children services in Lima Ohio. Got hired in at $1.19 over minimum wage $9570 dollars per year back then. Took the job because I needed to get experience to move up the ladder. We had 20 caseworkers investigating child abuse, managing foster care, etc. My caseload was over 120 children, which was twice the recommended caseload. Allen county refused to pay the employees a competitive wage in spite of high turnover, high stress, and dangerous working conditions. I was 2nd in seniority when I left only after being there a year.

Collective bargaining law for public employees allowed us to unionize and I am proud to say we were able to come to an agreement before I left for better pay, working conditions, and better services for the tax payers. The people who think that this should all go away should study their history a little better. Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it.
Feb 15, 2011 9:36pm
Writerbuckeye's avatar

Writerbuckeye

Senior Member

4,745 posts
Feb 15, 2011 9:47 PM
Bigdogg;679921 wrote:My first job out of college was working in children services in Lima Ohio. Got hired in at $1.19 over minimum wage $9570 dollars per year back then. Took the job because I needed to get experience to move up the ladder. We had 20 caseworkers investigating child abuse, managing foster care, etc. My caseload was over 120 children, which was twice the recommended caseload. Allen county refused to pay the employees a competitive wage in spite of high turnover, high stress, and dangerous working conditions. I was 2nd in seniority when I left only after being there a year.

Collective bargaining law for public employees allowed us to unionize and I am proud to say we were able to come to an agreement before I left for better pay, working conditions, and better services for the tax payers. The people who think that this should all go away should study their history a little better. Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it.

All those benefits you talk about would have happened without the union. How do I know? Because the continuous turnover costs MORE than paying better and keeping productive people.

The market always finds its level. If you were that valuable, it would have happened, anyway.
Feb 15, 2011 9:47pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Feb 15, 2011 9:49 PM
Bigdogg;679921 wrote:My first job out of college was working in children services in Lima Ohio. Got hired in at $1.19 over minimum wage $9570 dollars per year back then. Took the job because I needed to get experience to move up the ladder. We had 20 caseworkers investigating child abuse, managing foster care, etc. My caseload was over 120 children, which was twice the recommended caseload. Allen county refused to pay the employees a competitive wage in spite of high turnover, high stress, and dangerous working conditions. I was 2nd in seniority when I left only after being there a year.

Collective bargaining law for public employees allowed us to unionize and I am proud to say we were able to come to an agreement before I left for better pay, working conditions, and better services for the tax payers. The people who think that this should all go away should study their history a little better. Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it.

Thank you for sharing a POSITIVE public union story.
Feb 15, 2011 9:49pm
I

I Wear Pants

Senior Member

16,223 posts
Feb 15, 2011 11:29 PM
Writerbuckeye;679954 wrote:All those benefits you talk about would have happened without the union. How do I know? Because the continuous turnover costs MORE than paying better and keeping productive people.

The market always finds its level. If you were that valuable, it would have happened, anyway.
Look, I agree that unions aren't really needed now but this notion that the market always does the correct thing is insane. It would if people always made rational decisions but they do not.
Feb 15, 2011 11:29pm
Writerbuckeye's avatar

Writerbuckeye

Senior Member

4,745 posts
Feb 15, 2011 11:36 PM
Like it or not, in this day and age -- and given it was a government situation, the salary and benefits would have happened. You know it and I know it.
Feb 15, 2011 11:36pm
I

I Wear Pants

Senior Member

16,223 posts
Feb 15, 2011 11:41 PM
No I don't.
Feb 15, 2011 11:41pm
A

Al Bundy

Senior Member

4,180 posts
Feb 16, 2011 12:01 AM
Writerbuckeye;680257 wrote:Like it or not, in this day and age -- and given it was a government situation, the salary and benefits would have happened. You know it and I know it.

If all of the benefits would have happened without the union, what is the harm in collective bargaining?
Feb 16, 2011 12:01am
dwccrew's avatar

dwccrew

Not Banned

7,817 posts
Feb 16, 2011 12:51 AM
Al Bundy;680294 wrote:If all of the benefits would have happened without the union, what is the harm in collective bargaining?

The harm is when they are guaranteed benefits and pay increases even when the money is not there. An example of the failure of CBAs is in Toledo. For the past 2 years the city of Toledo has had to defer certain payments, for example overtime payments, to its unions that were guaranteed in the contracts because the money wasn't there. This problem isn't and will not be isolated in Toledo.

If people want to keep their unions and the CBAs that go along with it, negotiate a contract that has a flexible wage scale that is determined by the amount of available tax revenue. Tax revenue goes down, paycuts occur; tax revenue increases, pay increases occur. Of course, IMO, you don't need a union or CBA to handle this and make it happen.
Feb 16, 2011 12:51am
B

bonelizzard

Senior Member

129 posts
Feb 16, 2011 10:12 AM
SB5 is wrong. Call or email the following Senators and tell them so..


Kevin Bacon - Chair - 466-8064 [email protected]

Keith Faber - Vice-Chair - 466-7584 [email protected]

Joe Schiavoni (Currently AGAINST the Bill - THANK HIM) [email protected]

Bill Beagle - 466-6247 - [email protected]

Edna Brown (Currently AGAINST the Bill - THANK HER) [email protected]

Jim Hughes - 466-5981 [email protected]

Shannon Jones (the Bills Author - Tell her she's wrong) 466-9737 [email protected]

Kris Jordan - 466-8086 - [email protected]

Eric Kearney (Currently AGAINST the Bill - THANK HIM) - [email protected]

Tom Sawyer (Currently AGAINST the Bill - THANK HIM) - [email protected]

Tim Schaffer - 466-5838 - [email protected]

Bill Seitz - 466-8068 - [email protected]
Feb 16, 2011 10:12am
dwccrew's avatar

dwccrew

Not Banned

7,817 posts
Feb 16, 2011 10:29 AM
SB5 is a new and refreshing idea. Call or email the following Senators and tell them so..


Kevin Bacon - Chair - 466-8064 [email protected]

Keith Faber - Vice-Chair - 466-7584 [email protected]

Joe Schiavoni [email protected]

Bill Beagle - 466-6247 - [email protected]

Edna Brown [email protected]

Jim Hughes - 466-5981 [email protected]

Shannon Jones (the Bills Author - Tell her she's innovative) 466-9737 [email protected]

Kris Jordan - 466-8086 - [email protected]

Eric Kearney - [email protected]

Tom Sawyer - [email protected]

Tim Schaffer - 466-5838 - [email protected]

Bill Seitz - 466-8068 - [email protected]
Feb 16, 2011 10:29am
Q

QuakerOats

Senior Member

8,740 posts
Feb 16, 2011 10:43 AM
Dinosaurs don't die easily. There will be wailing, and gnashing of teeth.

Change however, is inevitable, and generally good.
Feb 16, 2011 10:43am
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Feb 16, 2011 11:35 AM
dwccrew;680538 wrote:SB5 is a new and refreshing idea. Call or email the following Senators and tell them so..


Kevin Bacon - Chair - 466-8064 [email protected]

Keith Faber - Vice-Chair - 466-7584 [email protected]

Joe Schiavoni [email protected]

Bill Beagle - 466-6247 - [email protected]

Edna Brown [email protected]

Jim Hughes - 466-5981 [email protected]

Shannon Jones (the Bills Author - Tell her she's innovative) 466-9737 [email protected]

Kris Jordan - 466-8086 - [email protected]

Eric Kearney - [email protected]

Tom Sawyer - [email protected]

Tim Schaffer - 466-5838 - [email protected]

Bill Seitz - 466-8068 - [email protected]

+1 and lol'd
Feb 16, 2011 11:35am
B

bonelizzard

Senior Member

129 posts
Feb 16, 2011 11:55 AM
hey Dw and sleeper, can't come up with your own reply? Have to steal mine?? Stop accusing public employees and using them as the scapegoat to our hard economic times. Yea, great idea.. Let's set our work force back decades to where we were before. Let's compete with public school systems like in the Carolina's. Ask them how good their public schools are? See what kind of response you get. Let's make the position of teacher in Ohio less attractive than it already is now. Do you really think that our future "students" will be better off with less qualified teachers, making less money teaching them?? Really?
Feb 16, 2011 11:55am
G

Gblock

Feb 16, 2011 12:14 PM
I think instead of worrying about how much we pay cops, fireman and teachers we should first immediately stop giving money away to other countries. i saw the other day that we give 1.5 billion a year away to Egypt. Really why do they need our money? do they give us a discount on oil? i dont get how we can justify giving money away abroad to so many other countries, when our economy is jacked up and we have homless people everywhere in our own country. If something needs to go the way of the dinosaur it is this policy.
Feb 16, 2011 12:14pm
FatHobbit's avatar

FatHobbit

Senior Member

8,651 posts
Feb 16, 2011 12:18 PM
bonelizzard;680673 wrote:hey Dw and sleeper, can't come up with your own reply? Have to steal mine?? Stop accusing public employees and using them as the scapegoat to our hard economic times. Yea, great idea.. Let's set our work force back decades to where we were before. Let's compete with public school systems like in the Carolina's. Ask them how good their public schools are? See what kind of response you get. Let's make the position of teacher in Ohio less attractive than it already is now. Do you really think that our future "students" will be better off with less qualified teachers, making less money teaching them?? Really?

I can understand why you're being defensive, but I know plenty of teachers looking for work in Ohio. What makes you think teachers will be less qualified if this bill passes? Care to elaborate on the problems in the Carolinas?
Feb 16, 2011 12:18pm
Q

queencitybuckeye

Senior Member

7,117 posts
Feb 16, 2011 12:18 PM
Gblock;680685 wrote:I think instead of worrying about how much we pay cops, fireman and teachers we should first immediately stop giving money away to other countries. i saw the other day that we give 1.5 billion a year away to Egypt. Really why do they need our money? do they give us a discount on oil? i dont get how we can justify giving money away abroad to so many other countries, when our economy is jacked up and we have homless people everywhere in our own country. If something needs to go the way of the dinosaur it is this policy.

Unless one is prepared to claim that the problem with education in this country is funding, I don't see what one has to do with the other.
Feb 16, 2011 12:18pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Feb 16, 2011 12:25 PM
bonelizzard;680673 wrote:Stop accusing public employees and using them as the scapegoat to our hard economic times.
They aren't blaming the employees. They're not even blaming the structure for the hard economic times. They ARE (as am I) suggesting that the structure only exacerbates the problem, and they ARE (again, as am I) saying that public employees should not receive special exemption from the results of the hard economic times.
bonelizzard;680673 wrote:Yea, great idea.. Let's set our work force back decades to where we were before.
Using this logic, implementing unions, as they currently function, in every niche market of the private sector would springboard those markets forward decades. It's not a logical notion.
bonelizzard;680673 wrote:Let's compete with public school systems like in the Carolina's.
Are the Carolinas without any unionized teachers?
bonelizzard;680673 wrote:Ask them how good their public schools are? See what kind of response you get. Let's make the position of teacher in Ohio less attractive than it already is now.
Are you kidding me? I'd LOVE to be a teacher right now!
bonelizzard;680673 wrote:Do you really think that our future "students" will be better off with less qualified teachers, making less money teaching them?? Really?

No, but I think forcing teachers to be competitive will add incentive to UP their experience and qualifications.
Feb 16, 2011 12:25pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Feb 16, 2011 12:25 PM
bonelizzard;680673 wrote:hey Dw and sleeper, can't come up with your own reply? Have to steal mine?? Stop accusing public employees and using them as the scapegoat to our hard economic times. Yea, great idea.. Let's set our work force back decades to where we were before. Let's compete with public school systems like in the Carolina's. Ask them how good their public schools are? See what kind of response you get. Let's make the position of teacher in Ohio less attractive than it already is now. Do you really think that our future "students" will be better off with less qualified teachers, making less money teaching them?? Really?

Chill out bro. It was a joke, ever heard of one?

Now to your questions, I'd like to see the apparent(and obviously) spoiled public employees lose the benefits the private sector does not get. Welcome to reality, you do not deserve the current benefits you are getting. I hope the bill passes, and I will be sending a letter to each of these influential people since I agree with them. Thank you (and the OP) for the awareness so that this important issue can be passed and executed.
Feb 16, 2011 12:25pm
G

Gblock

Feb 16, 2011 12:26 PM
queencitybuckeye;680691 wrote:Unless one is prepared to claim that the problem with education in this country is funding, I don't see what one has to do with the other.

well funding is a major problem in ohio. Property taxes is not a good way to fund schools and ohio courts have ruled as such. i am assuming that this bill is an effort to reduce costs because of a bad economy. I am also assuming that it is an effort to reduce taxes. i feel like the taxes we pay for things we actually use and need were'nt a big deal until now when the economy has taken a turn for the worse. Maybe it wouldnt be as bad if we paid less federal tax for things we dont need.

as far as the carolinas you can go there and they will hire you to teach and then give you 3 years to get your degree because no one wants to teach there. their pay is so low that they are always in a teacher shortage situation. If you lower the pay and benefits of cops and fireman and teachers you are going to lower the quality of candidate you are going to get for the job. Good people are going to go into other fields. these are jobs that are vital to communities and we use everday. I dont think this is where you go to try to save a buck.
Feb 16, 2011 12:26pm
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Feb 16, 2011 12:38 PM
"and they ARE (again, as am I) saying that public employees should not receive special exemption from the results of the hard economic times."

+ 1,000,000. Nobody should expect to be exempt. If a school district is used to a budget of $10M, and if the area is affected by layoffs, businesses closing, falling home values, etc. that results in an $8M collection and a $2M shortfall, what should they expect - $2M to magically be printed? No one likes pay freezes or cuts, but at some point people need to realize that you can't get blood out of a rock.
Feb 16, 2011 12:38pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Feb 16, 2011 12:40 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;680722 wrote:"and they ARE (again, as am I) saying that public employees should not receive special exemption from the results of the hard economic times."

+ 1,000,000. Nobody should expect to be exempt. If a school district is used to a budget of $10M, and if the area is affected by layoffs, businesses closing, falling home values, etc. that results in an $8M collection and a $2M shortfall, what should they expect - $2M to magically be printed? No one likes pay freezes or cuts, but at some point people need to realize that you can't get blood out of a rock.

No, but it can always be borrowed, and then the taxpayers can just pay it back later. :rolleyes:
Feb 16, 2011 12:40pm
CenterBHSFan's avatar

CenterBHSFan

333 - I'm only half evil

6,115 posts
Feb 16, 2011 12:44 PM
bonelizzard;680673 wrote:Let's set our work force back decades to where we were before.
My statements will be directed to the general public union people and not specifically for teachers.

But, this argument to use FOR public unions is too late to rely upon. Between the EPA, OSHA, lawyers and legislation, there's no worries about being "sent back decades to where we were before".
You'll have to come up with something more convincing than that in order to try and get people to change their opinions.
...........................

Another question that's been asked COUNTLESS times on this thread and yet never really answer:

What is so special about public employees that warrants them to get a buffer from the realities of economics that other groups of people don't get?
Feb 16, 2011 12:44pm
C

coach_bob1

Senior Member

130 posts
Feb 16, 2011 12:44 PM
sleeper;680699 wrote: I hope the bill passes, and I will be sending a letter to each of these influential people since I agree with them.

It's good to know that you hope for the passage of a bill that does ill will on my family. My wife is one of the state employees affected by this bill. She is not part of the union, but does pay what is known as "fair share". Her job does not exist in the private sector and her job is not funded by state taxes. If this bill passes, our healthcare costs would quadruple while my wife would receive a 20% paycut and lose sick time and vacation time and her pension. My wife has been at her job for 10 years and still makes less than I do (I am a server, so I don't make that much.) Those of you who think this is a black and white issue about unions are forgetting the people that will be affected.
Feb 16, 2011 12:44pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Feb 16, 2011 12:46 PM
coach_bob1;680733 wrote:It's good to know that you hope for the passage of a bill that does ill will on my family. My wife is one of the state employees affected by this bill. She is not part of the union, but does pay what is known as "fair share". Her job does not exist in the private sector and her job is not funded by state taxes. If this bill passes, our healthcare costs would quadruple while my wife would receive a 20% paycut and lose sick time and vacation time and her pension. My wife has been at her job for 10 years and still makes less than I do (I am a server, so I don't make that much.) Those of you who think this is a black and white issue about unions are forgetting the people that will be affected.

Welcome to the world of the private sector employee struggles for the last four years or so. It sucks, doesn't it?

Does anyone LIKE that this is the effect? Of course not. However, as has been said, employees should not receive special exemption from the hard economic times just because they are public employees.

If this passes, your family will be feeling what mine has been feeling now for years.

And for what it's worth, my wife is a kindergarten teacher at a publicly funded school.
Feb 16, 2011 12:46pm