2quik4u wrote: Two that you missed
Chris Webber
Shawn Kemp


Could say these guys are good or better then the 3 you named

Rik Smits
Christian Laettner- good until he got hurt
Cliff Robinson
Dennis Rodman

Good call on Webber but he could really be considered for either--some of his best years were in the early 2000's.

Good call on Kemp too, although his numbers aren't overly impressive. Had some good season, averaged 15 and 8 for his career. Below 50% shooting for his career. He's alright but not worthy of being on that list IMO. If it were a dunk contest discussion he'd get mentioned.

And after that I have real issues here. As good or better?

Rodman? Yeah right. One of the best rebounders ever, a good defender but no way he is anywhere near as good as any of those guys I mentioned. He's not even as good as the guys I said were up and coming IMO. Didn't he have almost twice as many boards as he did points in his career?

Lattener, probably worth of being mentioned but not as good or better than the guys I mentioned. But he was a good player.

Cliff Robinson...who? Extremely inefficient from a scoring stand point and I had to look it up but I thought so--he didn't even average 5 RPG for his career. As good or better than the guys I mentioned? Please.

Rik Smits is like Lattener, MAYBE worthy of being mentioned but not as good or better than any of the guys I named.

2quik4u wrote: Please explain to me how Ewing, Barkley and Robinson are overrated?

Alright, I shall.

First of all, overrated isn't a slam on them--I'm just saying that people talk about them as if they were better than they really were.

Barkley gets talked about as one of the greatest big men ever. He's not even top 10. That's why I said he's overrated--and A LOT of people talk about him as if he was that good. He was a great player, but not THAT good.

Ewing, same thing I just said about Barkley.

Robinson, well..pretty much the same thing except I've never heard too many people say he's top 10 all time good. But I guess the only thing that really sticks out about him to me is that Duncan came in and out did him as a young player when Robinson was still in his prime. So I guess since we're doing the comparison thing, that sicks out in my mind right now and that's why I included him in that overrated category.

Remember, overrated doesn't mean they weren't great players--I mentioned them didn't I?

Like I said, I'm not arguing that the 2000's were better--but I think they're pretty equal.

Oh wait, did you mean as good or better than the 3 I named who are up and coming?

Because I thought you meant the main list when I posted that for some reason. But in that case, I agree with you there--EXCEPT that those guys I mentioned are just now starting to really show out in the league--so it's kind of hard to compare them right now. And aside from Rodman. Rodman was a role player--granted, he probably has an argument for the best role player ever, but his game wasn't very well rounded at all.

How can you say Kemp doesn't belong, but you dish out the names of Bogut, Bynum, and Kaman? I know they were your young guys, but you mentioned them nonetheless.

OK, you typed that while I was typing mine and watching the end of the UNC game.

SQ_Crazies wrote:

2quik4u wrote: Two that you missed
Chris Webber
Shawn Kemp


Could say these guys are good or better then the 3 you named

Rik Smits
Christian Laettner- good until he got hurt
Cliff Robinson
Dennis Rodman

Good call on Webber but he could really be considered for either--some of his best years were in the early 2000's.

Good call on Kemp too, although his numbers aren't overly impressive. Had some good season, averaged 15 and 8 for his career. Below 50% shooting for his career. He's alright but not worthy of being on that list IMO. If it were a dunk contest discussion he'd get mentioned.

And after that I have real issues here. As good or better?

Rodman? Yeah right. One of the best rebounders ever, a good defender but no way he is anywhere near as good as any of those guys I mentioned. He's not even as good as the guys I said were up and coming IMO. Didn't he have almost twice as many boards as he did points in his career?

Lattener, probably worth of being mentioned but not as good or better than the guys I mentioned. But he was a good player.

Cliff Robinson...who? Extremely inefficient from a scoring stand point and I had to look it up but I thought so--he didn't even average 5 RPG for his career. As good or better than the guys I mentioned? Please.

Rik Smits is like Lattener, MAYBE worthy of being mentioned but not as good or better than any of the guys I named.

2quik4u wrote: Please explain to me how Ewing, Barkley and Robinson are overrated?

Alright, I shall.

First of all, overrated isn't a slam on them--I'm just saying that people talk about them as if they were better than they really were.

Barkley gets talked about as one of the greatest big men ever. He's not even top 10. That's why I said he's overrated--and A LOT of people talk about him as if he was that good. He was a great player, but not THAT good.

Ewing, same thing I just said about Barkley.

Robinson, well..pretty much the same thing except I've never heard too many people say he's top 10 all time good. But I guess the only thing that really sticks out about him to me is that Duncan came in and out did him as a young player when Robinson was still in his prime. So I guess since we're doing the comparison thing, that sicks out in my mind right now and that's why I included him in that overrated category.

Remember, overrated doesn't mean they weren't great players--I mentioned them didn't I?

Like I said, I'm not arguing that the 2000's were better--but I think they're pretty equal.

For Shawn Kemp I was only talking about his 90's #'s. As for the other 4 guys mentioned yes they were for the up and coming guys like you mentioned in your next post. As for calling these guys overrated which of the 00's guys will be top 10 when their career is over except for Shaq and Duncan?

I'll just list my top 10 big men:

10. Howard
9. Mikan
8. Hakeem
7. Garnett
6. Malone
5. Duncan
4. Russell
3. Kareem
2. Wilt
1. Shaq

As for your question, lots of people will have different orders but nearly everyone will have Shaq and Duncan on the list already. Garnett would be on many lists too. Howard wouldn't be but that's how highly I think of him. IMO, he can be top 5 if he wants to be--he's literally a freak of nature. I think when it's all said and done, Dirk will have a tough resume to ignore because he's going to end up with A LOT of career points. But really, it's nearly impossible to say--they have to work their way on that list. Potentially, I think that Bosh and Amare could end up on the list when it's all said and done. And honestly, I think Bynum too if he ever pulls it together, but I doubt it. He's REALLY good when he wants to be. Some of these guys are young as hell too and have already built incredible resumes.

Howard, as in Dwight Howard?

Being in the top 10 big men of all time?

ahhh the comparison to the 90s.

Well, the NBA players of the 90s won 3 gold medals and never lost a game. The NBA players of the 00s lost several times and only won 2 gold medals and even had a few close calls during the times they won. In 2004 the US team lost more games than the whole history of the US national team. but you'll say the rest of the world got better....but wait, i thought the players of the 00s were better than those of the 90s, so shouldnt our teams still have dominated?

A lot of international players now play in the NBA, so instead of going up against glorified amateurs, the USA has to play other professionals. Is it really that hard to understand?

The team from 00's would rape any other team in history, and I'm not talking that joke team where Lebron, Wade, and Melo rode the bench, I'm talking the team that just won gold.

If you disagree about Howard I understand. But you have to remember, I think that LeBron is one of the 5 best players to ever play the game too. Now top 5 legacy is something that he still has a lot to accomplish. But I have a hell of a time coming up with 5 names that I think were ever better than LeBron is right now.

LTrain23 wrote: Howard, as in Dwight Howard?

Being in the top 10 big men of all time?

Yep.

Like I just said in the post above, I don't base things like this on the players career legacy very often--there are too many variables there. Not every player plays on the same team, etc., etc., etc.

You start arguing apples and oranges when you do that.

Glory Days wrote: ahhh the comparison to the 90s.

Well, the NBA players of the 90s won 3 gold medals and never lost a game. The NBA players of the 00s lost several times and only won 2 gold medals and even had a few close calls during the times they won. In 2004 the US team lost more games than the whole history of the US national team. but you'll say the rest of the world got better....but wait, i thought the players of the 00s were better than those of the 90s, so shouldnt our teams still have dominated?

Our players didn't dominate because our teams were put together wrong. The rest of the world is catching up, but the USA is still by far the greatest basketball nation in the world.

When you look around the NBA now though, you'll see a lot of international flavor. Manu, Dirk, Pau, Marc, Luis Scola, Andy V, Andrea Bargnani, etc...

The 90's NBA doesn't really compete with the NBA of NOW. There were some dull season from 99-2003 or 2004.. The NBA now though is getting to be VERY good.

EVERY team has a all star caliber player on it. The league of the 90's was somewhat watered down and there is no doubt that one team pretty much dominated it.

Glory Days wrote: ahhh the comparison to the 90s.

Well, the NBA players of the 90s won 3 gold medals and never lost a game. The NBA players of the 00s lost several times and only won 2 gold medals and even had a few close calls during the times they won. In 2004 the US team lost more games than the whole history of the US national team. but you'll say the rest of the world got better....but wait, i thought the players of the 00s were better than those of the 90s, so shouldnt our teams still have dominated?

This is a TERRIBLE argument. The international game is 10 times better than it was then, it's WAYYYYY bigger and the internet in the mid 90's just made it way bigger than it ever was. In fact, the Dream Team holds a lot of the responsibility for the improvement of the other national teams. Not to mention, we had the best team when we didn't win gold even if it wasn't the best roster they could have put together--we just had a terrible coach.

And I agree with sleeper:

CP3/J Kidd/D-Will
Kobe/Wade
LeBron/Melo/Durant
Amare/Bosh
Howard

No team from any other period even comes within single digits.

SQ_Crazies wrote: This is a TERRIBLE argument. The international game is 10 times better than it was then, it's WAYYYYY bigger and the internet in the mid 90's just made it way bigger than it ever was. In fact, the Dream Team holds a lot of the responsibility for the improvement of the other national teams. Not to mention, we had the best team when we didn't win gold even if it wasn't the best roster they could have put together--we just had a terrible coach.

And I agree with sleeper:

CP3/J Kidd/D-Will
Kobe/Wade
LeBron/Melo/Durant
Amare/Bosh
Howard

No team from any other period even comes within single digits.

but i thought the players now are WAYYYYYY better than the players then? still shouldnt we be dominating even though the international players are getting better because our players got better too? so you are saying international players have developed twice as fast as our players in order to catch up?

The team as of Feb. this year:

LaMarcus Aldridge
Carmelo Anthony
Chris Bosh
Kobe Bryant
Chauncey
Carlos Boozer
Kevin Durant
Rudy Gay
Eric Gordon
Danny Granger
Dwight Howard
Andre Iguodala
LeBron James
Al Jefferson
David Lee
Brook Lopez
Kevin Love
O.J. Mayo
Lamar Odom
Chris Paul
Kendrick Perkins
Derrick Rose
Amare Stoudemire
Dwyane Wade
Gerald Wallace
Russell Westbrook
Deron Williams

Christ. I just saw Dwight Howard as a Top 10 Big man of all time!!!! Of all time!!!!

He's not even the best big man in the league!!!! And never has been!!!!

Sage wrote: Christ. I just saw Dwight Howard as a Top 10 Big man of all time!!!! Of all time!!!!

He's not even the best big man in the league!!!! And never has been!!!!

100% agreed.

Dwight Howard has not developed an offensive game, and quite honestly, he's not even that great of a defender. He gets a lot of blocks + rebounds, which wins him the DPOY by default.

Sage wrote: Christ. I just saw Dwight Howard as a Top 10 Big man of all time!!!! Of all time!!!!

He's not even the best big man in the league!!!! And never has been!!!!

That's fine if you disagree, I said in the post that most people would. I look at a lot of things differently. But you could have 100 people make a list of the top ten of whatever and get 100 different lists. It's purely opinion, I never claimed it to be anything other than that.

LTrain23 wrote:

Sage wrote: Christ. I just saw Dwight Howard as a Top 10 Big man of all time!!!! Of all time!!!!

He's not even the best big man in the league!!!! And never has been!!!!

100% agreed.

Dwight Howard has not developed an offensive game, and quite honestly, he's not even that great of a defender. He gets a lot of blocks + rebounds, which wins him the DPOY by default.

Kinda how LBJ gets on 1st team all D for blocks

SQ_Crazies wrote: I'll just list my top 10 big men:

10. Howard
9. Mikan
8. Hakeem
7. Garnett
6. Malone
5. Duncan
4. Russell
3. Kareem
2. Wilt
1. Shaq

As for your question, lots of people will have different orders but nearly everyone will have Shaq and Duncan on the list already. Garnett would be on many lists too. Howard wouldn't be but that's how highly I think of him. IMO, he can be top 5 if he wants to be--he's literally a freak of nature. I think when it's all said and done, Dirk will have a tough resume to ignore because he's going to end up with A LOT of career points. But really, it's nearly impossible to say--they have to work their way on that list. Potentially, I think that Bosh and Amare could end up on the list when it's all said and done. And honestly, I think Bynum too if he ever pulls it together, but I doubt it. He's REALLY good when he wants to be. Some of these guys are young as hell too and have already built incredible resumes.

Please erase Garnett as fast as you can. Put in Nate Thurmond in his place. Other tham that, you're good to go. But you might want to sneak Dave Cowans or Willis Reed in there too.

Hb31187 wrote: Kinda how LBJ gets on 1st team all D for blocks

Even you know that isn't true!

Hb31187 wrote:

LTrain23 wrote:

Sage wrote: Christ. I just saw Dwight Howard as a Top 10 Big man of all time!!!! Of all time!!!!

He's not even the best big man in the league!!!! And never has been!!!!

100% agreed.

Dwight Howard has not developed an offensive game, and quite honestly, he's not even that great of a defender. He gets a lot of blocks + rebounds, which wins him the DPOY by default.

Kinda how LBJ gets on 1st team all D for blocks

haha..

But LeBron can and does shut down the opposing player WHEN he has too. Of course, you're not going to shut down guys like Kobe or Melo, you can only hope to slow them down. But LeBron is definitely a 1st team defender.

I look back to the Boston game earlier where LeBron stifled Paul Pierce at everything he tried to do.. Frustrating Paul and getting Paul to push LeBron in the back lol.

Lol im just joking, but it fit in perfectly to what was said

Footwedge wrote:
Please erase Garnett as fast as you can. Put in Nate Thurmond in his place. Other tham that, you're good to go. But you might want to sneak Dave Cowans or Willis Reed in there too.

I'm not much of a Garnett fan but he deserves to be on there IMO.

I thought about Nate Thurmond. And actually, my odd man out was probably Bob Pettit. 26 and 16 career average. I'm just not big on the 50's and early 60's as a great era of NBA basketball. Not that he and some others from that era weren't great--but I feel like a lot of those guys beat up on some pretty inferior talent. But I had to put Mikan on there, just based on everything I've read about him in the past, I've always thought he was one of the best ever.

Hb31187 wrote: Lol im just joking, but it fit in perfectly to what was said

WTF is up with your Nuggets recently?!?!?!

I honestly haven't been paying attention to the West seedings and I found out today that they fell to the 5th seed.

I was shocked.