I find it more likely that this incredible, vast universe was created through a higher power rather than through a great coincidence.

queencitybuckeye wrote: I find it more likely that this incredible, vast universe was create through a higher power rather than through a great coincidence.

So do I...however much like upper90 I have a hard time with the idea that this "God" is directly and intimately involved in my day to day life. Is this the same good, loving "God" that allows terrible acts to be committed in his name and does nothing to stop terrible things from happening to good people and innocent children?

I was a believer as recently as 4 years ago...I'm just having a real hard time reconciling the concept of a "gracious, loving God" and the terrible things that happen in our World. I am recently of the belief that a higher power exists that put our universe into motion...but he doesn't control or affect the happenings on our tiny little rock.

If anyone can address my issues, I'm listening....

Gobuckeyes1 wrote: I am recently of the belief that a higher power exists that put our universe into motion...but he doesn't control or affect the happenings on our tiny little rock.

Sounds a bit like Vonnegut's "Church of God the Utterly Indifferent".

I have a very strong faith in God, but I am not a fan of organized religion.

Several huddlers have mentioned that they believe that a creator set the universe in motion but doesnt care or interfer from there.

Interesting thought, does anyone care to elaborate?

I'd say agnostic, as I'd expect there is some sort of higher power that created things, but don't subscribe to any religion. To me, the Christian deity is no different than the Flying Spaghetti Monster....well, other than how the Monster has a greater "coolness" aura. My opinion's that religion is primarily a tool used as a way of controlling people by exploiting their fear/uncertainty of the unknown. Fortunately, things are more laid-back (at least in our country) today. Saying stuff like this a few centuries ago would have gotten me tortured and executed for heresy or witchcraft.

Heretic wrote: I'd say agnostic, as I'd expect there is some sort of higher power that created things, but don't subscribe to any religion. To me, the Christian deity is no different than the Flying Spaghetti Monster....well, other than how the Monster has a greater "coolness" aura. My opinion's that religion is primarily a tool used as a way of controlling people by exploiting their fear/uncertainty of the unknown. Fortunately, things are more laid-back (at least in our country) today. Saying stuff like this a few centuries ago would have gotten me tortured and executed for heresy or witchcraft.

Blasphemer!! Hang him by his toes.

P.S. -- I agree.

Tinkertrain wrote: Several huddlers have mentioned that they believe that a creator set the universe in motion but doesnt care or interfer from there.

Interesting thought, does anyone care to elaborate?

You cannot get something from nothing. Assuming that the universe is not infinite in size and age, something has to have existed before the universe did, and therefore played some role in it's creation. In my view, that something is "God". I do not know if this "God" is actually a sentient being or a mystical, undiscovered, unexplained force of nature.

This does not necessarily mean that God currently interacts in our daily lives, answers our prayers, or cared enough to send his son to be crucified for our sins. It just means that in my mind, "God" exists, or did at one point anyway...

I'm looking for answers just like everyone else, and this is the way I see things right now. As mentioned before, if someone has a better theory that backs up the idea of "God" in the Christian tradition, I'm all ears. I enjoy discussing topics like this.

I think one of the problems that some people might have is that, somewhere in time, it has become a "given" that God is going to answer everybody's prayers or to act in mercy upon situations.
I often wonder when/how that came about to be and why we all sort of expect it.

CenterBHSFan wrote: I think one of the problems that some people might have is that, somewhere in time, it has become a "given" that God is going to answer everybody's prayers or to act in mercy upon situations.
I often wonder when/how that came about to be and why we all sort of expect it.

I'll take a crack at it...

If I'm not mistaken, one of the main pillars of Christianity is that "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son..."

In other words, God loves us so much that he sent his son to be sacrificed on our behalf. Yet this same God that loves us so much will not intervene to stop innocent children from being abused, Christian families from being killed in car accidents, genocides of innocent people all around the world, etc. Why would a God that loves us and listens to our pleas for his help ignore us when it would be so easy for an omnipotent being to end the pain of so many good and innocent people. Instead of help we get "Sorry...you wanted free will, now you got it... Is that how a father that loves his children should act?

This is the ongoing struggle between my heart and my brain. My heart wants to believe that there is a God who loves me...but my brain finds it unlikely.

go chiefs,

Yeah, I get what you're saying. And it seems that alot of people feel that way, like that is their biggest conundrum.
I'm still in the learning process myself, so I'm no expert by any means. I know a thing or two - just enough to get me into trouble lol

I look at it in another way. And, I'll use the analogy from your viewpoint to try and convey the way I think.

I think that God already did his part. He created us. Gave us the ability to reason and to love. Gave us a good and basic outline on how we should live our lives. Granted us (at least to some degree) free will. Allowed the sacrifice of his earthly son so that our sins will be forgiven. I think that we have to ask for forgiveness, it is not something that is granted just "because".
I don't know how much more that we should hold God obligated to.

Here's some of the questions I still have.
Is God obligated to anything more? Is God accountable to our "feelings"? Does God have to be responsible for our natural life? Are our lives pre-destined or pre-determined? How much do I really want to know?
There's many more, but I don't want to bore anybody.

So, you see, even though my faith in God is there, doesn't mean that I don't question anything. I think that is a natural and human thing to do. In the meantime, I just try to work through it and do the best I can.

My opinion is that the books of the bible were written by a primitive people, and everything in it is greatly exxagerated. Also, I agree with others on here, that if there IS a God, why does so much bad shit happen? More people are killed in the name of God than anything else. Do I believe in God? No, hell no. there are too many things to contradict it, and organized religion is just as bad as PETA, tree-huggers, and any other radical group, especially Catholicism and Islamists, the most extreme, hypocritical, full-of-shit religions out there. The world would be so much better without these two, let alone any organized religion. The country would be better off without Dems and Pubs, too. What is needed is a middle-of-the-road third party, and the media to back it. End rant.

I don't know. I'm not much for organized religion either. But one thing I think we must also remind ourselves is that different forms of religions have also been very generous and beneficial to societies like sheltering people, feeding people, education, etc.
I think we do ourselves a major disservice by ignoring these things.

Gobuckeyes1 wrote:

CenterBHSFan wrote: I think one of the problems that some people might have is that, somewhere in time, it has become a "given" that God is going to answer everybody's prayers or to act in mercy upon situations.
I often wonder when/how that came about to be and why we all sort of expect it.

I'll take a crack at it...

If I'm not mistaken, one of the main pillars of Christianity is that "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son..."

In other words, God loves us so much that he sent his son to be sacrificed on our behalf. Yet this same God that loves us so much will not intervene to stop innocent children from being abused, Christian families from being killed in car accidents, genocides of innocent people all around the world, etc. Why would a God that loves us and listens to our pleas for his help ignore us when it would be so easy for an omnipotent being to end the pain of so many good and innocent people. Instead of help we get "Sorry...you wanted free will, now you got it... Is that how a father that loves his children should act?

This is the ongoing struggle between my heart and my brain. My heart wants to believe that there is a God who loves me...but my brain finds it unlikely.

You should go to the thread about "What is a Satanist" or whatever it's called. That's the direction that conversation has gone due to the satanist belief that God is the evil one and Satan is good. Being that I don't believe in the Christian deity, I obviously don't believe in the Christian devil, but I understand that viewpoint. On that thread, I made a post similar to this of yours, but using biblical examples instead of real-life, as you did.

Christianity basically turned me into an atheist, and once I realized I do not need Christianity to be spiritual I started going more agnostic. I have began to get more into Buddhism as I find it to be what I expect out of a set of beliefs. I'm still not big on organized religion though.

I think most people are becoming less religious in the United States.

Gobuckeyes1 wrote: In other words, God loves us so much that he sent his son to be sacrificed on our behalf. Yet this same God that loves us so much will not intervene to stop innocent children from being abused, Christian families from being killed in car accidents, genocides of innocent people all around the world, etc.

I'm a Christian, though I'll admit I'd like to and should become better versed. I have been turned off to God by people in the past who have tried to shove their beliefs down my throat and though my pastor disagrees with me, I'm just not the type of person who is ever going to "try" to convince someone. That approach to spreading the word is less effective than suddenly trying to make people pay $12 for a message board membership.

I can only speak from personal experience and if it means something to someone else, then great.

One thing that has been most difficult for me is detaching myself from thinking exclusively in terms of "this world". It is difficult to see the evil that people choose to inflict upon others and the natural question is to ask why God doesn't intervene. The thing is, according to faith, the important part isn't what happens to us here, but what happens to us for eternity. The reason that God doesn't prevent a Christian from dying in a car accident is because he doesn't need to. It is strange, but it is understood that we don't understand how these human emotions and senses will not be the same when we leave this world. It sucks sometimes because we are stuck here with these constraints, missing people, wishing they could've experienced something else with us, etc. But, for me the belief that my loved ones have reached their ultimate peace and that I will be reunited with them in a place without these rigors and pains eases my mind and my soul. This is a stepping stone and regardless of the wins and losses in this world, my decisions and my faith are what determine my eternity.

I believe in Jesus Christ. He is my Lord and Savior.

I do not believe in organized religion either. I do not believe that "Christianity" was supposed to be what we've done to it. "Church" is not supposed to be the way we do it.

"When the Greeks got the gospel, they turned it into a philosophy; when the Romans got it, they turned it into a government; when the Europeans got it, they turned it into a culture; and when the Americans got it, they turned it into a business." - Richard Halverson

OSH wrote: I believe in Jesus Christ. He is my Lord and Savior.

I do not believe in organized religion either. I do not believe that "Christianity" was supposed to be what we've done to it. "Church" is not supposed to be the way we do it.

"When the Greeks got the gospel, they turned it into a philosophy; when the Romans got it, they turned it into a government; when the Europeans got it, they turned it into a culture; and when the Americans got it, they turned it into a business." - Richard Halverson

That's somewhat strange you don't believe in organized religion, but believe Jesus is your lord and savior. Jesus was a specific creation of organization religion.

eersandbeers wrote: That's somewhat strange you don't believe in organized religion, but believe Jesus is your lord and savior. Jesus was a specific creation of organization religion.

Did Jesus "create" this organized religion that we call Christianity that entails of a building, a preacher/pastor/whatever you want to call that person, offering plates, choirs, pews, elders, deacons, etc. etc. etc.

Or did we?

Or are you saying that we that follow "Christianity" created this "Jesus" figure?

i still go, but haven't felt really drawn to church in awhile. maybe it'll comeback, either way i still go because i want my kids to be spiritual like their mother and me not going would be counter productive.

j_crazy wrote: i still go, but haven't felt really drawn to church in awhile. maybe it'll comeback, either way i still go because i want my kids to be spiritual like their mother and me not going would be counter productive.

Regardless of what you believe, church still provides children with a good moral compass to live their lives. As children develop and have various experiences in life, I think they grow to question all ideas more, including religion. I just think it is a good foundation for kids to have.

I like many others believe in Jesus but have qualms with organized religion. At the same time, I don't have a problem accepting that there are certain things that are beyond a human beings understanding.

One of my biggest problems with organized religion is there seems to be very little stock put into how one actually lives their life. For example, how can a homosexual man who is an excellent human being be damned to Hell? I just can't buy that, and I have seen pastors flat out tell others who are homosexual where exactly they are going to spend eternity.

I was raised a catholic, went to catholic school from kindergarten through high school. My belief in organized religion started to wane about midway through my sophomore year of high school. It was completely gone by the time I received my diploma. In school we were taught that as catholics we were superior to other Christians, Jews and Muslims even though all three religions share very similar roots. not to mention Buddhists, Sikhs, or Hindus. That always struck me as extremely ethnocentric, and an idea that I have disagreed with for as long as I can remember. I do not believe in god any more. I understand why people participate in religion or believe, but for myself I just don't see the point.

Im a Christian, have been for a good amount of years. I wouldnt change it for nothing. It pains me how the world acts these days, and how much better it would be if people knew the Man I know personally. Its great being a child of God, because I have a hope and I have love for everyone. I also dont have the sinful desires because of God's help. Im far from perfect, but I know my rights from wrongs, and I watch what I do. Its always nice to have alot of people caring for you also. I go to a Baptist church, and have been going there since I was born.

Its really an easy decision for anyone. Do you want to live in perfect paradise with the Man who loved you enough to die for you, or burn in fire for all eternity? Wasnt a hard choice for me to make.

And Im always willing to talk to anyone who has questions about God. So if there's anyone who needs help, has questions, needs guidance, give me a PM, I will be glad to help out in the best way I can.

One of my problems is that "All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God." That is probably my biggest problem. Not the fact that we all sin, but that we measure sins. Christians measure sins more than anyone. God sees sin as sin, and many go out there and act like some sins are worse than others. That is where "hypocrisy" in religion comes from, IMO.

That, and self-righteous people, which I think kinda goes hand-in-hand.

Here is my biggest problem....and I hope someone can provide a solid argument against it because no one I've talked to who believes in god has so far.....

In our early days, we had multiple gods. The god of thunder, lightning, the sea, war, etc.... The reasons these gods were created was to explain things we didn't understand. Why are there waves in the oceans? Where does thunder and lightning come from? What are the lights in the sky we see at night? etc....we used gods to explain these events. But today, we know the answers to almost all of these questions through scientific research that shows these events are not an act of god. So understanding our mistakes from the past (using god as an answer to an unresolved question), why do we still credit our creation to a god? We are doing the same thing as our ancestors thousands of years ago with the creation of the universe...we don't have an answer...so it must be god. Are we no smarter than our ancestors thousands of years ago? I just find it completely irrational to believe that this case is different from the others.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or change anyone's beliefs. I want to believe in god, I truly do. But every argument I come across I feel like there is another logical explanation for things. This is the one argument I have never had a good response to and was hoping the huddle...errr freehuddle can come up with something good.