You sound like a ND fan dwelling on past championships, who has the most wins of all time, etc. No one cares about the past, it has nothing to do with the shape of the program right now.

You ever hear a Duke fan dwelling on past championships?
You ever see a KU fan bring up the OT win over Memphis?

No, because those programs focus on the present and the future. You can't succeed in the future if you dwell on the past (Florida basketball)

Seriously, what in the hell are you talking about?

He's simply saying that he can't be too unhappy about an "off year" when Carolina has recently won two titles. I don't think that's "dwelling on the past". I think that's realizing that you can't be the national champion EVERY season.

slingshot4ever wrote: You sound like a ND fan dwelling on past championships, who has the most wins of all time, etc. No one cares about the past, it has nothing to do with the shape of the program right now.

You ever hear a Duke fan dwelling on past championships?
You ever see a KU fan bring up the OT win over Memphis?

No, because those programs focus on the present and the future. You can't succeed in the future if you dwell on the past (Florida basketball)

How does anybody sound like ND fans? ND hasn't won anything since 1930 (joking) while UNC has won TWO titles in the last 4 years. Hardly similar..

You sound like a bitter person.

BTW, UNC is still the defending champions.

Oh, another thing.. UNC has beaten OSU and MSU. With this team that I've seen now, that actually speaks volumes to the coaching ability of Roy Williams.

Nuff said on this subject.

1. Marcus Ginyard is awful. He really needs to be cut out of the rotation at this point. Roy won't do it due to loyalty, which I can respect.

2. Dexter Strickland is better than Larry Drew. Minutes should reflect this but they don't.

3. Deon Thompson is a good second post scorer but has been exposed somewhat this year. His struggles only illuminate how good Tyler Hansbrough was.

4. John Henson isn't a 3. I had hoped that he was, but he isn't.

5. This year's freshmen class will be very good down the road. But it has proven to be overrated thus far.

6. I will take missing the tournament if it means a National Title the previous year. I just can't get angry with this group because I'm still on last year's high.

You ever hear a Duke fan dwelling on past championships?

Constantly!!!!

If they get at least 18 wins (a strong finish).....they are in...Thats why its good to be the king. It is called the big dance.....so big dancers should be there.

slingshot4ever wrote:
You ever hear a Duke fan dwelling on past championships?

Did you know Duke has won 3 national titles?????

RiverRat13 wrote: 1. Marcus Ginyard is awful. He really needs to be cut out of the rotation at this point. Roy won't do it due to loyalty, which I can respect.

2. Dexter Strickland is better than Larry Drew. Minutes should reflect this but they don't.

3. Deon Thompson is a good second post scorer but has been exposed somewhat this year. His struggles only illuminate how good Tyler Hansbrough was.

4. John Henson isn't a 3. I had hoped that he was, but he isn't.

5. This year's freshmen class will be very good down the road. But it has proven to be overrated thus far.

6. I will take missing the tournament if it means a National Title the previous year. I just can't get angry with this group because I'm still on last year's high.

Very good post. I think that sums it up perfectly.

It's pretty frustrating watching this group struggle, but like you said, it's hard to be too upset after winning a title. I really hope that Carolina can finish strong, make a decent showing in the post-season, and then get ready for next year.

It will be interesting to see if Roy starts patterning the Jim Calhoun school of coaching philosophy of building up for that big run every few years, with little regard to what happens in between. I only say this because I'm surprised to hear some Carolina fans think this is OK -- or at least acceptable. I've never understood how Calhoun TWICE has won a national championship and then missed the whole tournament either the next year or the year right after that. And I won't even touch on the mediocre coaching of Billy Donovan. He's NOT an elite coach.

Roy certainly is an elite coach, one of the 5 or 6 best in the game, but to miss the tournament this year would take away some of his luster. To me, at Carolina, unless there is unpreventable extenuating circumstances, there should never be a missed NCAA appearance after winning the national title. Whether it's an issue with planning, recruiting misses, or whatever, there's a flaw somewhere. This should never happen. Personally, I'd never be satisfied with winning a title if it meant that I wouldn't be in the Dance the next year. That's not solid enough for me.

Obviously Carolina lost some great players, but then again so has a lot of other teams in the past. After finishing as national runner-up in '99, Duke lost sophomore Elton Brand (the national player of the year), sophomore William Avery (All-ACC), freshman high riser Corey Maggette and senior Trajan Langdon (All-American) to the NBA Draft. The Blue Devils also lost top reserves Chris Burgess and Taymon Domzalski (Burgess to transfer and Domzalski to gradutation) that year. That's three starters, including the team's top three players and scorers, two All-Americans, three All-ACC selections, the ACC freshman of the year, the national player of the year, etc. No team in the history of the ACC had been hit with this big of a loss in the off-season. And it was completely unexpected, too. The only players Coach K truly believed he was losing was Langdon and Domzalski. Maggette came out of left field, as did Avery, and Brand was expected to return.

That next year, Duke won both the ACC regular-season cloth award and the ACC championship (winning the conference tournament) and finished the regular season as the No. 1 team in the country heading into the NCAA Tournament. Duke did have Shane Battier and Chris Carrawell back that season to go along with an excellent incoming freshman class, but Battier was far from the star he would later become. The Duke staff did a tremendous job in bringing Battier along and turning him into both an offensive and defensive assassin. No player I've ever seen at Duke progressed more rapidly than Battier over his sophomore to junior and senior seasons. That's a result of a coaching staff that planned accordingly and developed players extraordinarily.

I just see this situation at UNC as interesting. Not really saying anything one way or the other.

This is a team with good talent, but no leader on the court. Roy is doing his best, but the boys aren't quite there yet. I don't think it's unfair to say this isn't a top 5 talent team in the ACC. Even somebody like Ed Davis, whom many see as a top 5, is a potential type player. I have seen nothing that makes me think he deserves a top 5 spot, but he'll possibly get it. Our good players are a bit overhyped, and that may have led to expectations that weren't fair. Roy knew it. He was absolutely shocked they were #4 in the country. He probably felt they were maybe the 4th best in the ACC.

Rec,

I see what you're saying. Carolina is a program that has been consistent for a long time. Missing the NCAA Tournament is something that happens rarely, and probably shouldn't happen, just as you said. It remains to be seen how this season ends, but it's looking like the Heels will need a miracle to right the ship and make it to the NCAAs. If this team doesn't make the tournament, I'll be extremely disappointed. The joy of a recent national championship is something, though, that can make that disappointment a little easier to stomach. That's what I'm saying, and I think that's the point the other Carolina fans are making as well. A season like this is far from acceptable, but coming off a championship, it's a little easier to cope.

Also, I don't see Roy looking to establish a Calhoun philosophy at Carolina. I don't think he had any intention for things to turn out similar to this, and I certainly don't think he'll ever be willing to sacrifice a season in order to win a championship down the road. Losing Hansbrough, Green, Frasor, Lawson, and Ellington and replacing them with five freshmen who haven't been able to produce like the Hansbrough class did as freshmen, just hasn't gone well at all. I don't think there was necessarily a flaw in recruiting strategy, or any flaw for that matter. A big class just left, and took a couple early entrants with them, and the new guys haven't picked up the slack. The guys who were probably the "worst" players in their respective classes (Ginyard and Thompson) are left to be stars when they're really not that at all. You can only offer so many scholarships, and it's possible that when you have a couple large classes followed by a couple smaller classes, things just don't work out as planned.

Hopefully that makes some sense. Probably didn't come out quite like I wanted it to, but I think you get the picture.

Rec, I definitely doubt Roy is going to pattern himself after Calhoun. You can tell this season is killing Roy, he's as competitive as it gets...

I don't think ANY of us UNC fans are saying we're happy with this season. Because we're NOT. However, it's a little easier to take when the guy got us 2 titles in 4 years. I can LIVE with this season.

We don't have a true floor general or a legit 3pt threat. Defenses are pretty much pressing our guards down court, then packing it tight to the paint when we cross the half court line...

It was just a few short years ago when Duke was 22-10, 8-8 in the ACC Finishing 6th in the conference...

It's not always about WHO you lost, but WHAT you lost.. And what Carolina lost was very important when it comes to each individual game.

Rec,

I absolutely can't believe you wouldn't trade a NCAA title one year for a mediocre season and missed NCAA tourny the next. An NCAA championship is the ultimate bragging rights. It trumps everything else. You don't get trophies for simply making the NCAA tournament and bowing out in the 2nd or 3rd round consistently.

I'm really disappointed in this UNC squad this year, but as well you know, the future looks bright in Chapel Hill for UNC to continue its dominance in the near future.

I see all of your points. Like I said, I'm not really saying anything about Carolina one way or the other. I just find their current predicament of interest.

I do stand firm in my belief that Roy's coaching belt loses a notch, though probably a small one, if the Heels miss the tournament. For a coach that many believe to be the best in the game (I don't, but lots do), and with the talent that Carolina does have (there is a lot of talent there, folks), I don't see how he could miss the Dance without taking a large hit in his resume. This my opinion, of course.

Carolina is 13-8 (2-4) right now. For the Heels to finish where Duke did in 2006-07 (22-9, 8-8), they must win 9 of their last 10 regular season games in the ACC. Duke needed every bit of its 22 wins in 2007 to just get into the Dance -- with 21, I don't think they were in; you just don't get in the tournament with a losing conference record. This also means with only two conference wins right now, Carolina will have to finish 6-4 against this lineup, just to finish with that .500 conference record: @Va Tech, @Maryland, Duke, NC State, @Georgia Tech, @Boston College, Florida State, @Wake, Miami, @Duke. At first glance, I only see three possible wins there. At BC and at home against Miami and NC State.

On a side note, I do have a feeling that Duke will drop its game in Chapel Hill. Records go out the window with this rivalry. I think it will take a win over Duke, too, to get the Heels in the tournament. It will come down to the eight conference wins, with one of those being Duke, to get Carolina in, IMO.

And on the other hand, even if Carolina was to finish just 8-8 in the conference, which would mean a 19-12 overall mark, I don't think they get in. It would take a big push from the committee, IMO, without a run in the ACC Tournament.

It's going to be a tough road. Good luck.

If Carolina finishes 8-8 in conference, I'm not sure that'll be enough. I guess it may depend on who those conference wins come against, but at 19-12, I feel like they may have work left to do in the ACCT to get in. Being the defending champs and a perennial basketball powerhouse may help out, but who knows. At this point, I just hope that by the end of the season, Carolina is actually on the bubble with a chance to get in, rather than definitely out.

Gotta take it one game at a time. This Thursday in Blacksburg is a HUGE game. Carolina already beat Va Tech, but playing at Cassell is no easy task. A loss there with Maryland and Duke on the horizon could mean it's over.

I'm not sure if you saw my last addition to the post above, but I said the exact same thing as you. 19-12 will not likely be enough.

I'm still anxious for the Feb. 10 game, though. It's going to be interesting to see how it plays out.

Yeah, I must have been typing my post before you added that. I'd say 20-11, 9-7 might do the trick, but I still wouldn't be comfortable with that. Probably would still need to win at least one game in the ACCT to be safe.

I'm definitely looking forward to Feb. 10th also. I would think that Carolina would certainly bring its A+ effort on that night. Duke visiting the Dean Dome, post-season hopes on the line, and I believe that will also be the night that Hansbrough's jersey is retired. Should be a great atmosphere.

UNC won't miss the tourny.

I highly doubt Roy loses any notch on his "coaching belt" if they do miss though..

LTrain23 wrote:UNC won't miss the tourny.

Are you saying that UNC will win at least seven of its last 10 games? Because that's probably what it's going to take. And considering UNC has lost 5 of 7 during its most recent stretch, I find this hard to believe.

Here's to dreams coming true, though. {[][]}

19-12 would get Carolina in. We got in with 18-13 (8-8) in '00 and this year's non-conference slate was better than that year.

That said, I'm not 19-12 is realistic at this point.

That 2000 North Carolina team also won 6 of its final 7 regular season games heading into the ACC Tournament, and then reeled off two wins in Greensboro to advance to the ACC championship game, where the Heels lost to Duke in a game that was close to the end. Of those 8 victories in 9 games before the title match loss to Duke, North Carolina had beaten No. 3 Duke in Chapel Hill. That's a strong finish, and ultimately why the Heels slipped into the Dance.

There will be no 8 wins in 9 games and a win over Duke to end this season for UNC. An average 6-4 finish (which would get UNC to 19-12) without a run to the ACC title game is not going to be enough. The Heels are going to need a miracle finish and a trip to the final in Greensboro. Based on the two ACC championships you guys have in the last 12 seasons, even with players like Forte, McCants, Felton, May, M. Williams, Hansbrough, etc. -- it's actually amazing that, of that group, only Hansbrough won an ACC title while in Chapel Hill -- good luck with that.

Hey, I probably am enjoying this a bit too much with all my "analysis," but this is THE rivalry and it's fun to watch the other side float upside down from time to time Or drop like the Titanic.

Rec,

I bet players like May, Felton, McCants, Marvin Williams, Hansbrough, Ellington, Lawson will all get together at future reunions and talk about all those lost opportuntities at ACC tournament championships. If only these players could have been successful and actually won something important in college like the dukies, lol!

As stated earlier, this season has been rough for the UNC nation but it's good to know that your chief rival is again a paper tiger that will be exposed again in the NCAA tournament when it counts. I guess that helps me sleep a little better at night

I despise Steve Lavin with every fiber of my being, but he seems to think that 8-8 in the ACC and a respectable showing in the ACCT will get Carolina in. I think he's also basing that on the "name recognition" that comes along with the Carolina program. 19-12 with a win in the ACCT might get the job done, I suppose. Personally, I think it might not, but I'm not an ESPN analyst. Lavin is rarely correct about anything, in my opinion, but I hope he's right on this.

Also, it has been interesting to see the evolution of rec's enjoyment of Carolina's current situation. First, he wasn't really enjoying it that much because Duke was getting thrashed by the Hoyas. Now he's starting to enjoy it a little more as the days go by. I think he has been thoroughly enjoying it all along, but that's just me.

8-8 and 19 wins should get a UNC or a Duke, UK, UCONN, Kansas, Illinois, MSU...into the tourney. They are the blue bloods....they belong before a silly mid major....


Of course my feelings about mid-major basketball are well lamented and part of huddle lore.

ironman02 wrote:Also, it has been interesting to see the evolution of rec's enjoyment of Carolina's current situation. First, he wasn't really enjoying it that much because Duke was getting thrashed by the Hoyas. Now he's starting to enjoy it a little more as the days go by. I think he has been thoroughly enjoying it all along, but that's just me.

I have no idea what you're talking about.