BigAppleBuckeye wrote: Look, I am pro-choice, but I understand the viewpoints of those who are not. The sticking point is that I don't believe a fetus is a child, while you do. Because of this, nothing said in this thread will do much good either way. To me, a fetus is as much a child as the sperm in a used condom. A bit graphic, I know, but that is the way I feel about it. If you truly believe a fetus is a child, then sure, I can see why your stance is so.

I respect your opinion. I disagee with it, but I respect it. I believe it is a human at conception. At what point do you belive that the baby is a human, or at what point do you feel that it is wrong to kill the baby?

majorspark and Al Bundy, that is a great question indeed. To be 100% honest, there is no black and white answer, at least in my opinion. All I know (well, strongly believe anyway) is that a little biological glob at the point of conception is not a child. But you pose a strong objection: when can this be classified as a child? A brush-stroke answer would be at the point when the baby can "feel" things (pain, temperature, etc). Afterall, isn't it our feelings (both physical and emotional) that define us as "living?"

BigAppleBuckeye wrote: majorspark and Al Bundy, that is a great question indeed. To be 100% honest, there is no black and white answer, at least in my opinion. All I know (well, strongly believe anyway) is that a little biological glob at the point of conception is not a child. But you pose a strong objection: when can this be classified as a child? A brush-stroke answer would be at the point when the baby can "feel" things (pain, temperature, etc). Afterall, isn't it our feelings (both physical and emotional) that define us as "living?"

Don't get this wrong. Even though I do not know you personally, I am pretty sure if it were possible to prove to you the exact moment human life began and it was proven to be at conception, you would no doubt be against taking that life. In short I do not think you are a worthless baby killer because you do not belive it is at the point of conception.

Here is what I believe. Whether it has a heartbeat, feelings, looks human, or whatever there is no clear cut beginning of life other than to go back to the beginning scientifically. The beginning of the life process for a human begins at conception. Unless some other explanation can be made. This is the only one I can except.

BigAppleBuckeye wrote:What if someone close to you was viciously raped and impregnated by a strung-out crack addict ... would you still feel this way?

Yes. This came up in conversation between my wife and I and we would choose life. In our opinion, 2 wrongs don't make a right.

The disgusting brutality of some deranged person torturing, raping, killing and dismembering a child is unimaginable.

To me, the procedure of partial birth abortion is just as inhumane plus, money is made from it and a portion of society fights to keep it.

Al Bundy wrote:

sleeper wrote:

Al Bundy wrote:

sleeper wrote: Hitler's mother was going to have an abortion too, but she decided against it at the last second. If she had done it, millions of lives would have been spared from his atrocities, thank god for abortion.

What Hitler did in executing aproximately 12 million people was one of sickest things in human history. Almost 50 million Americans have been executed by abortion since 1973. Execution of people is an extremely disgusting event. You are right in a sense that Hitler should have been stopped earlier. Good job by Tebow by taking a stand against those who are in favor of executing babies. Hopefully his work saves lives.

Actually zero Americans have died from abortions, now fetuses, another story.

Nearly 50 million babies have been executed. It is really sick if you have so little respect for human life, that you don't respect the lives of youngest. You criticized Hitler (rightfully so) for his execution of Jews. He viewed the Jews as not being human. You view babies as not being human. People should not be executed, and your lack of respect for human life is just disgusting.

Don't twist my words, I said 50 million fetuses have been expelled from the human body. Babies =/= fetuses.

Thanks for playing.

Good for Tebow in taking such a postive stand against an issue which is totally unpopular and certainly "uncool" in todays younger society!!!!!

sleeper wrote:

Al Bundy wrote:

sleeper wrote:

Al Bundy wrote:

sleeper wrote: Hitler's mother was going to have an abortion too, but she decided against it at the last second. If she had done it, millions of lives would have been spared from his atrocities, thank god for abortion.

What Hitler did in executing aproximately 12 million people was one of sickest things in human history. Almost 50 million Americans have been executed by abortion since 1973. Execution of people is an extremely disgusting event. You are right in a sense that Hitler should have been stopped earlier. Good job by Tebow by taking a stand against those who are in favor of executing babies. Hopefully his work saves lives.

Actually zero Americans have died from abortions, now fetuses, another story.

Nearly 50 million babies have been executed. It is really sick if you have so little respect for human life, that you don't respect the lives of youngest. You criticized Hitler (rightfully so) for his execution of Jews. He viewed the Jews as not being human. You view babies as not being human. People should not be executed, and your lack of respect for human life is just disgusting.

Don't twist my words, I said 50 million fetuses have been expelled from the human body. Babies =/= fetuses.
Thanks for playing.

Ooops! I must have missed it. I didn't think you said that until just then.

Sleeper, we all know you like to stir the pot! Get it in line!

Is it still a fetus an hour before birth?
Roughly 12 inches determines a fetus and baby? (from the womb thru the birth canal)
2 month premature delivery...is it still a fetus when it's in the arms of it's mother?

BigAppleBuckeye wrote: majorspark and Al Bundy, that is a great question indeed. To be 100% honest, there is no black and white answer, at least in my opinion. All I know (well, strongly believe anyway) is that a little biological glob at the point of conception is not a child. But you pose a strong objection: when can this be classified as a child? A brush-stroke answer would be at the point when the baby can "feel" things (pain, temperature, etc). Afterall, isn't it our feelings (both physical and emotional) that define us as "living?"

Full brain wave activity. Which is after the first trimester.

Nearly 50 million babies have been executed. It is really sick if you have so little respect for human life, that you don't respect the lives of youngest. You criticized Hitler (rightfully so) for his execution of Jews. He viewed the Jews as not being human. You view babies as not being human. People should not be executed, and your lack of respect for human life is just disgusting.

I am pro life on this issue...but I break ranks when pregnancy is caused by rape. I do not believe that God would provide that big of a cross to bear...i.e. carrying to term a newborn from a viscious felony crime.

With that said, I would question the term "respect for life" or the "sanctity of life" when there are so many pro lifers that are pro torture as well and pro death in unnecessary wars instituted by the state.

Really, I fail to differentiate on "respect for human life"...whether it be Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zedung...or any state that initiates genocide on their own people..or people from a different country.

Moral codes and moral laws have been broken by our own leadership on a couple different occasionsover the past 50 years.

Invasion/occupation/killing under the guise of wars on those that are no threat to us is murder...no different than the murder of developing fetuses.

majorspark wrote:
Here is what I believe. Whether it has a heartbeat, feelings, looks human, or whatever there is no clear cut beginning of life other than to go back to the beginning scientifically. The beginning of the life process for a human begins at conception. Unless some other explanation can be made. This is the only one I can except.

Suppose there is what appears to be a person...it has a heart pumping blood through it...but it has no spinal cord nor any functioning nervous system...it has no cognitive experience of the world...feels no pain...has no feelings or memories...it's just sitting there, it's eyes do not move, it breaths because it's attached to a machine making it breath and there is a tube pumping nutrients into it's stomach through its belly button. If I walked in and killed this person...do you think I should go to jail for murder?

It does not have, nor has ever had a nervous system of any kind...never had any experience of the world.

Pretty weird that people who care about saving lives are going to spend 1million a second to protect non-sentient clumps of cells. Imagine if, whoever this group who supposedly cares about life would've invested in Port au Prince pre-earthquake to try to change the destitute poverty and suffering experienced by human beings who do indeed experience suffering and pain. But they made a deal with the devil and practice voodoo so...

I have no problem with the commercial. whether I agree with it or not isn't relevant. What is relevant is that each of us live in a country where we can speak freely. We can agree to agree or agree to disagree, but whichever we select, it is our right. We need to protect that right like crazy.

BoatShoes wrote: Suppose there is what appears to be a person...it has a heart pumping blood through it...but it has no spinal cord nor any functioning nervous system...it has no cognitive experience of the world...feels no pain...has no feelings or memories...it's just sitting there, it's eyes do not move, it breaths because it's attached to a machine making it breath and there is a tube pumping nutrients into it's stomach through its belly button. If I walked in and killed this person...do you think I should go to jail for murder?

It does not have, nor has ever had a nervous system of any kind...never had any experience of the world.

People turn machines on and off all day long, every day.

CenterBHSFan wrote:

BoatShoes wrote: Suppose there is what appears to be a person...it has a heart pumping blood through it...but it has no spinal cord nor any functioning nervous system...it has no cognitive experience of the world...feels no pain...has no feelings or memories...it's just sitting there, it's eyes do not move, it breaths because it's attached to a machine making it breath and there is a tube pumping nutrients into it's stomach through its belly button. If I walked in and killed this person...do you think I should go to jail for murder?

It does not have, nor has ever had a nervous system of any kind...never had any experience of the world.

People turn machines on and off all day long, every day.

But as it relates to humans, the machine is turned off only if that person has provided a living will.

BoatShoes wrote: Pretty weird that people who care about saving lives are going to spend 1million a second to protect non-sentient clumps of cells. Imagine if, whoever this group who supposedly cares about life would've invested in Port au Prince pre-earthquake to try to change the destitute poverty and suffering experienced by human beings who do indeed experience suffering and pain. But they made a deal with the devil and practice voodoo so...

I didn't know that this earthquake was imminent.

BoatShoes wrote: Pretty weird that people who care about saving lives are going to spend 1million a second to protect non-sentient clumps of cells. Imagine if, whoever this group who supposedly cares about life would've invested in Port au Prince pre-earthquake to try to change the destitute poverty and suffering experienced by human beings who do indeed experience suffering and pain. But they made a deal with the devil and practice voodoo so...

It isn't the U.S.'s job to make sure countries aren't in poverty. The US did help, like they did in the DR (which is essentially the same country, with different people) and one country did well while the other tanked. The US can't do everything for everyone.

I'm pro-life but after hearing Tebow's mother's story and realizing how close we were to not having Tim Tebow around today is making me rethink my position....

So close!!!

CenterBHSFan wrote:

sleeper wrote:

Al Bundy wrote:

sleeper wrote:

Al Bundy wrote:

sleeper wrote: Hitler's mother was going to have an abortion too, but she decided against it at the last second. If she had done it, millions of lives would have been spared from his atrocities, thank god for abortion.

What Hitler did in executing aproximately 12 million people was one of sickest things in human history. Almost 50 million Americans have been executed by abortion since 1973. Execution of people is an extremely disgusting event. You are right in a sense that Hitler should have been stopped earlier. Good job by Tebow by taking a stand against those who are in favor of executing babies. Hopefully his work saves lives.

Actually zero Americans have died from abortions, now fetuses, another story.

Nearly 50 million babies have been executed. It is really sick if you have so little respect for human life, that you don't respect the lives of youngest. You criticized Hitler (rightfully so) for his execution of Jews. He viewed the Jews as not being human. You view babies as not being human. People should not be executed, and your lack of respect for human life is just disgusting.

Don't twist my words, I said 50 million fetuses have been expelled from the human body. Babies =/= fetuses.
Thanks for playing.

Ooops! I must have missed it. I didn't think you said that until just then.

Sleeper, we all know you like to stir the pot! Get it in line!

If stirring the pot means attacking the ignorant, then that's pretty much all I do.

BoatShoes wrote:

majorspark wrote:
Here is what I believe. Whether it has a heartbeat, feelings, looks human, or whatever there is no clear cut beginning of life other than to go back to the beginning scientifically. The beginning of the life process for a human begins at conception. Unless some other explanation can be made. This is the only one I can except.

Suppose there is what appears to be a person...it has a heart pumping blood through it...but it has no spinal cord nor any functioning nervous system...it has no cognitive experience of the world...feels no pain...has no feelings or memories...it's just sitting there, it's eyes do not move, it breaths because it's attached to a machine making it breath and there is a tube pumping nutrients into it's stomach through its belly button. If I walked in and killed this person...do you think I should go to jail for murder?

It does not have, nor has ever had a nervous system of any kind...never had any experience of the world.

This hypothetical situation has never existed. When we can grow humans in a lab we can decide on your punishment.

If one (like myself) believes in a supernatural creator who is the giver of life, then life would be defined as the moment the creater places it (the human soul) in that clump of cells. At what exact moment the creator decides to do this, I can't say. If someone can define it for me I can change, otherwise like I said I can only except the proven beginning of the process God created.

If one does not believe in a supernatural creator, there still has to be a moment life enters that clump of cells. When somebody can define that exact moment in the process, otherwise I'll stick with the beginning.

I would suggest if one seeks to prevent human life from occurring, they can take the necessary precations. Abstain from life making sex or use birth control.

As for punishment. If one were to go to the morgue and find a clump of cells in the shape of a human body, that has no heartbeat, no brain activity, no feelings, and no potential for human life, and chop it to bits... We have laws on the books today that would land this person in jail.

Now if this clump of cells happens to be in the womb of another human being with no doubt to anyone, at least the potential for human life, one can chop it to bits and cast the pieces into the garbage. This person gets no jail time.

These are tough and serious issues that should not have been decided nationally for all 300 million of us by 9 men/women in black robes. It is my opinion that these issues be sorted out at the state and local level through the legislative process.

BoatShoes wrote: Pretty weird that people who care about saving lives are going to spend 1million a second to protect non-sentient clumps of cells. Imagine if, whoever this group who supposedly cares about life would've invested in Port au Prince pre-earthquake to try to change the destitute poverty and suffering experienced by human beings who do indeed experience suffering and pain. But they made a deal with the devil and practice voodoo so...

Perhaps if we were not killing those clumps of cells they may have invested it elsewhere. Who knows boat, someone may have already killed the clump of cells that could have lead them out of poverty.

Everyone is missing the big picture here. This is historic because it is probably the only appearance Tebow will make at the Super Bowl in his career.

Thug.

Footwedge wrote: I didn't know that this earthquake was imminent.

Perhaps imminent was a poor word choice...but the island is stuck between two tectonic plates and the potential for an earthquake there was known.

article wherein geologists discuss knowing about the earthquake risk

BoatShoes wrote:

Footwedge wrote: I didn't know that this earthquake was imminent.

Perhaps imminent was a poor word choice...but the island is stuck between two tectonic plates and the potential for an earthquake there was known.

article wherein geologists discuss knowing about the earthquake risk

There's a huge fault along the west coast as well. I mean, where is the line drawn?

Spending 10 billion or so could have prevented 90% of the havoc in New Orleans too.

I just think that using your analogy in preventing or reducing the aftermaths of natural disasters was a reach...in comparing to Tebow's pro life commercial.