like_that;1839569 wrote:The argument was you don't take IT over Butler or PG in a draft. We aren't placing handicaps on this argument because IT is tiny.

I don't need to make handicaps. He scores 30ppg on a top five team. Your argument, which you still haven't objectively defended, was that he doesn't play defense. CoA brought up that video, which I suggested that his size - not ability or effort - is what makes him a defensive liability.

friendfromlowry;1839576 wrote:I don't need to make handicaps. He scores 30ppg on a top five team. Your argument, which you still haven't objectively defended, was that he doesn't play defense. CoA brought up that video, which I suggested that his size - not ability or effort - is what makes him a defensive liability.

He doesn't play defense dude and it is well known he doesn't play defense. I don't know what to tell you. You're using his size as an excuse. If that is not a handicap on the argument, then I don't know what it is. Whether his size plays a role into his shitty defense or not (it probably does, I will give that to you), doesn't change the fact he is one of the worst defenders in the league amongst starting NBA players. There is nothing he can do about his size. You also conveniently ignored the fact that he most likely won't be getting the ticky tacky foul calls in the playoffs that puts him on the charity line. Just ask Harden/Lowry/Derozan/etc about their offensive efficiency in the playoffs once they stop getting bullshit calls. The whole argument is who you would draft between the three players. I highly doubt any GM would select IT over Butler and PG. No GM is going to say "well the little guy can't play defense, because he is tiny, so it's not fair." There is a reason why IT was traded twice, and Butler/PG have stayed on the same team. I think if you move PG/Butler to another team they will have a positive impact on that team regardless. It seems like IT needed to find a team and coach that perfectly fits his game. I stand by my comment, anyone willing to draft IT over Butler/PG is an idiot and I hope that person is never the Cavs GM with that logic.

You don't have to look much further than last yr's playoffs where the Celtics should have beaten the hawks and didn't bc of what the hawks did to IT.

friendfromlowry;1839576 wrote:I don't need to make handicaps. He scores 30ppg on a top five team. Your argument, which you still haven't objectively defended, was that he doesn't play defense. CoA brought up that video, which I suggested that his size - not ability or effort - is what makes him a defensive liability.

I don't care what his effort is like. I don't care if He is the greatest 5-9 defender to ever live. He can't defend NBA players that well because he is short, and that makes him a liability. And it makes Jimmy Butler and Paul George better players.

like_that;1839581 wrote:He doesn't play defense dude and it is well known he doesn't play defense. I don't know what to tell you. You're using his size as an excuse. If that is not a handicap on the argument, then I don't know what it is. Whether his size plays a role into his shitty defense or not (it probably does, I will give that to you), doesn't change the fact he is one of the worst defenders in the league amongst starting NBA players. There is nothing he can do about his size. You also conveniently ignored the fact that he most likely won't be getting the ticky tacky foul calls in the playoffs that puts him on the charity line. Just ask Harden/Lowry/Derozan/etc about their offensive efficiency in the playoffs once they stop getting bullshit calls. The whole argument is who you would draft between the three players. I highly doubt any GM would select IT over Butler and PG. No GM is going to say "well the little guy can't play defense, because he is tiny, so it's not fair." There is a reason why IT was traded twice, and Butler/PG have stayed on the same team. I think if you move PG/Butler to another team they will have a positive impact on that team regardless. It seems like IT needed to find a team and coach that perfectly fits his game. I stand by my comment, anyone willing to draft IT over Butler/PG is an idiot and I hope that person is never the Cavs GM with that logic.

Good grief. Where do I begin.
1. Doesn't play defense and it's well known, yet you don't have anything objective to support this? Did you look at the link I posted last night? It's one system that suggests that he's not that bad. Certainly not as bad as you make him out to be.
2. I'm not using his size as an excuse. I used it as a possible explanation. I've said that multiple times that perhaps his ability/effort still is a problem, too.
3. "Whether his size plays a role into his shitty defense or not (it probably does, I will give that to you), doesn't change the fact he is one of the worst defenders in the league amongst starting NBA players." -- So, is his size something to be considered, or is he a shitty defender, one of the worst amongst NBA starters?
4. I'm not ignoring the ticky tack fouls. If it happens then we'll talk about it then. He averaged 24ppg against Atlanta last year so he hardly had a huge drop off. Derozan and Lowry were within two games of going to the NBA finals last year so I'm not worried about them.
5. "I highly doubt any GM would select IT over Butler and PG. No GM is going to say "well the little guy can't play defense, because he is tiny, so it's not fair." Like I said, I'm not asking you to cut him any slack based on his size. He seems to be doing just fine.
6. I'm not going to hold the fact that he was traded from the fucking Kings against him. They and the Suns are perennially lost at sea so maybe they were the idiots for trading him. Butler and George have benefited from playing with competent coaches, players, and front offices.
7. "I think if you move PG/Butler to another team they will have a positive impact on that team regardless." No arguments here.
8. "I stand by my comment, anyone willing to draft IT over Butler/PG is an idiot" Agree to disagree. IMO, any GM would be happy to have any of them. If Dan Gilbert has to pick and picked IT, I'd doubt everyone else would be like "lolz what an idiot"

Laley23;1839635 wrote:I don't care what his effort is like. I don't care if He is the greatest 5-9 defender to ever live. He can't defend NBA players that well because he is short, and that makes him a liability. And it makes Jimmy Butler and Paul George better players.

The reason I got on this was because of the blanket statements like "worst defender in the league, atrocious, doesn't play defense" etc. -- which I'd associate as faults with his effort or ability. If we finally want to agree that his height more than anything is what makes him a liability, and why'd you select George or Butler over him, then okay.

friendfromlowry;1839638 wrote:Good grief. Where do I begin.
1. Doesn't play defense and it's well known, yet you don't have anything objective to support this? Did you look at the link I posted last night? It's one system that suggests that he's not that bad. Certainly not as bad as you make him out to be.
2. I'm not using his size as an excuse. I used it as a possible explanation. I've said that multiple times that perhaps his ability/effort still is a problem, too.
3. "Whether his size plays a role into his shitty defense or not (it probably does, I will give that to you), doesn't change the fact he is one of the worst defenders in the league amongst starting NBA players." -- So, is his size something to be considered, or is he a shitty defender, one of the worst amongst NBA starters?
4. I'm not ignoring the ticky tack fouls. If it happens then we'll talk about it then. He averaged 24ppg against Atlanta last year so he hardly had a huge drop off. Derozan and Lowry were within two games of going to the NBA finals last year so I'm not worried about them.
5. "I highly doubt any GM would select IT over Butler and PG. No GM is going to say "well the little guy can't play defense, because he is tiny, so it's not fair." Like I said, I'm not asking you to cut him any slack based on his size. He seems to be doing just fine.
6. I'm not going to hold the fact that he was traded from the fucking Kings against him. They and the Suns are perennially lost at sea so maybe they were the idiots for trading him. Butler and George have benefited from playing with competent coaches, players, and front offices.
7. "I think if you move PG/Butler to another team they will have a positive impact on that team regardless." No arguments here.
8. "I stand by my comment, anyone willing to draft IT over Butler/PG is an idiot" Agree to disagree. IMO, any GM would be happy to have any of them. If Dan Gilbert has to pick and picked IT, I'd doubt everyone else would be like "lolz what an idiot"

1. What exactly are you looking for? COA's video wasn't enough? It was a good breakdown on how shitty his defense is. You can google defensive compilations of IT if you want as well. As I said before, it is well known his defense is atrocious. Do you have anything objective to support your argument against this? So far all you have given me is "well his team has the 5th best record, and he is small," which literally says nothing on why his defense actually isnt that bad...

2. "which I suggested that his size - not ability or effort - is what makes him a defensive liability." Uhh, if that is not an excuse, then what is it? If his size is why his defense sucks ass, then that doesn't change the fact that his defense is atrocious. Still no idea where you are going with the size argument other than using it as an excuse for IT.


3. Again, I am sure his size plays a factor in his atrocious defense. Where does that change the fact that his defense sucks ass? If I am a GM and looking at his defense I am not going to think "oh well, his defense is only bad because he is small. We can't count that against him." It's like saying Drumond is god awful at free throws because of his size, but it doesnt change the fact he sucks ass at free throws.


4. Did you watch the series? Have you ever seen Lebron score a lot of points and think he had a shitty game because he wasn't efficient. Same shit applies to IT that series (especially when you factor in his defense). He wasn't even close to being as efficient as he was in the regular season. That's why a shitty hawks team nearly knocked them out in 5 games.


5. Cool, doesn't change the fact a GM would select IT over PG or Butler lol.


6. The point is Butler/PG can go to any team and have an immediate impact wherever they go, because they are two way players. IT needs the perfect fit. He found a team with a creative coach and a team that needs IT handling the ball/going ISO for most of the time. That shit isn't going to fly on many other rosters.


7. Ok.


8. Well first of all, if our owner is picking and not our GM I would be pissed. Second of all, if our gm picked IT over Butler/PG in a fantasy draft I would call him a fucking idiot and I would be pissed. Good thing Griffin isn't an idiot and wouldn't make that choice.

like_that;1839644 wrote:


8. Well first of all, if our owner is picking and not our GM I would be pissed. Second of all, if our gm picked IT over Butler/PG in a fantasy draft I would call him a fucking idiot and I would be pissed. Good thing Griffin isn't an idiot and wouldn't make that choice.

100% agree

Isiah Thomas is bottom 5 at best in the league on defense.

End of discussion.

like_that;1839644 wrote:1. What exactly are you looking for? COA's video wasn't enough? It was a good breakdown on how shitty his defense is. You can google defensive compilations of IT if you want as well. As I said before, it is well known his defense is atrocious. Do you have anything objective to support your argument against this? So far all you have given me is "well his team has the 5th best record, and he is small," which literally says nothing on why his defense actually isnt that bad...

I do actually have something objective to support his defense isn't atrocious, back in post 849. Go to basketball-reference.com and look at the advanced stats, too. His defensive win shares which literally means wins contributed by a player due to his defense. Last year IT was 2.5, this year he's 1.0. In comparison, Kyrie was 1.7 last year and 1.4 this year. Kyle Lowry is at 1.7 this year. Oh but IT's defense is so atrocious. Worst in the NBA!

""which I suggested that his size - not ability or effort - is what makes him a defensive liability." Uhh, if that is not an excuse, then what is it? If his size is why his defense sucks ass, then that doesn't change the fact that his defense is atrocious. Still no idea where you are going with the size argument other than using it as an excuse for IT.

See, the keyword there is that I suggested. I didn't absolutely say his size was the reason. That's what makes it not an excuse. Quite frankly, who gives a fuck. I've already proven his defense isn't as bad as you make it out to be. And Andre Drummond doesn't suck at free throws because of his size, it's because he's not a good shooter. Demarcus Cousin is the same size shoots literally x2 a better percentage.

If I am a GM and looking at his defense I am not going to think "oh well, his defense is only bad because he is small. We can't count that against him."

If you were a GM, you'd look at his 4th quarter scoring the highest of any player in the past two decades and an obvious reason for the Celtics success this season. Hasn't seemed to hurt them too much yet.

He wasn't even close to being as efficient as he was in the regular season. That's why a shitty hawks team nearly knocked them out in 5 games.

What's your definition of not even close? He shot 42.8% FG, 33.6% from 3PT in regular season on 22.2 ppg. In the playoffs he went 39.5%, 28.3%, on 24ppg. AND, his free throw attempts per game went up, which you've been saying wouldn't happen. Any objectivity? Any?

The point is Butler/PG can go to any team and have an immediate impact wherever they go, because they are two way players. IT needs the perfect fit. He found a team with a creative coach and a team that needs IT handling the ball/going ISO for most of the time. That shit isn't going to fly on many other rosters.

We'll see what Butler/PG do on different teams when they actually play on different teams. Until then, cool theory. And I'm not going to discount what he's doing because it didn't work on the fucking Kings or Suns.

Also, you have Sleeper agreeing with you now on basically the same substance-free logic. So good luck with that.

friendfromlowry;1839649 wrote:I do actually have something objective to support his defense isn't atrocious, back in post 849. Go to basketball-reference.com and look at the advanced stats, too. His defensive win shares which literally means wins contributed by a player due to his defense. Last year IT was 2.5, this year he's 1.0. In comparison, Kyrie was 1.7 last year and 1.4 this year. Kyle Lowry is at 1.7 this year. Oh but IT's defense is so atrocious. Worst in the NBA!



See, the keyword there is that I suggested. I didn't absolutely say his size was the reason. That's what makes it not an excuse. Quite frankly, who gives a fuck. I've already proven his defense isn't as bad as you make it out to be. And Andre Drummond doesn't suck at free throws because of his size, it's because he's not a good shooter. Demarcus Cousin is the same size shoots literally x2 a better percentage.



If you were a GM, you'd look at his 4th quarter scoring the highest of any player in the past two decades and an obvious reason for the Celtics success this season. Hasn't seemed to hurt them too much yet.



What's your definition of not even close? He shot 42.8% FG, 33.6% from 3PT in regular season on 22.2 ppg. In the playoffs he went 39.5%, 28.3%, on 24ppg. AND, his free throw attempts per game went up, which you've been saying wouldn't happen. Any objectivity? Any?



We'll see what Butler/PG do on different teams when they actually play on different teams. Until then, cool theory. And I'm not going to discount what he's doing because it didn't work on the fucking Kings or Suns.

Also, you have Sleeper agreeing with you now on basically the same substance-free logic. So good luck with that.

- You're right, he is only dead last in DPRM by 1.15. http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/12/sort/DRPM. That link you provided from fox sports has his defensive rating only at 113 points per 100 possessions when he is on the floor. This is with a roster of players that play good defense individually... He isn't that bad at defense though. No clue why you keep bringing up Kyrie. I am not defending Kyrie's defense. That has been a knock on him for awhile now and literally supports nothing that says Isiah's defense isn't god awful.

-Suggest or use his size as an excuse, it really doesn't fucking matter. It doesn't change the fact he is shitty at defense. A lot of true bigs (shaq, deandre jordan, drummond, etc) are shitty at shooting FTs or FGs in general because of their size. Regardless the point of the analogy was regardless of their body it doesnt change the fact they suck ass at shooting despite "suggesting" their size plays a role into it.


-If I were a GM that would be noted, and everything else would be noted. Taking everything into consideration I would be an idiot GM to take IT over Butler/PG period.


-Bradley was out after game 1 that entire series thus ITs usage rate went up. He only played 6 games, so his average is a little pumped up from his 2 good games at home in boston. Look at the games they lost. He was efficient at all, and thus the Hawks beat them. This is without even considering his shitty defense. The celtics best perimeter defender goes down (bradley) and all of sudden the Hawks are dropping over 100 pts every game (except one game). Hmmm.....


-Well it will take awhile to find out, because these GMs realize these guys are too good to be traded once, let alone twice in their careers.


-GTFO trying to pull the sleeper card on me, just because you are wrong. You are literally the only person defending IT's atrocious defense. Also lol at substance free. The only substance you provided is "IT gives up 113 pts per 100 possessions when he is on the floor. He is on the 4th page of the defensive ratings, but hey that's not that bad!" Every NBA scout would agree with me that IT is a shitty defender. I never asked sleeper for any help, I don't need it. You're reaching really hard if you are trying to pull that bullshit.

like_that;1839658 wrote:- You're right, he is only dead last in DPRM by 1.15. http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/12/sort/DRPM. That link you provided from fox sports has his defensive rating only at 113 points per 100 possessions when he is on the floor. This is with a roster of players that play good defense individually... He isn't that bad at defense though. No clue why you keep bringing up Kyrie. I am not defending Kyrie's defense. That has been a knock on him for awhile now and literally supports nothing that says Isiah's defense isn't god awful.

-Suggest or use his size as an excuse, it really doesn't fucking matter. It doesn't change the fact he is shitty at defense. A lot of true bigs (shaq, deandre jordan, drummond, etc) are shitty at shooting FTs or FGs in general because of their size. Regardless the point of the analogy was regardless of their body it doesnt change the fact they suck ass at shooting despite "suggesting" their size plays a role into it.


-If I were a GM that would be noted, and everything else would be noted. Taking everything into consideration I would be an idiot GM to take IT over Butler/PG period.


-Bradley was out after game 1 that entire series thus ITs usage rate went up. He only played 6 games, so his average is a little pumped up from his 2 good games at home in boston. Look at the games they lost. He was efficient at all, and thus the Hawks beat them. This is without even considering his shitty defense. The celtics best perimeter defender goes down (bradley) and all of sudden the Hawks are dropping over 100 pts every game (except one game). Hmmm.....


-Well it will take awhile to find out, because these GMs realize these guys are too good to be traded once, let alone twice in their careers.


-GTFO trying to pull the sleeper card on me, just because you are wrong. You are literally the only person defending IT's atrocious defense. Also lol at substance free. The only substance you provided is "IT gives up 113 pts per 100 possessions when he is on the floor. He is on the 4th page of the defensive ratings, but hey that's not that bad!" Every NBA scout would agree with me that IT is a shitty defender. I never asked sleeper for any help, I don't need it. You're reaching really hard if you are trying to pull that bullshit.

rekt

like_that;1839658 wrote:- You're right, he is only dead last in DPRM by 1.15. http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/12/sort/DRPM. That link you provided from fox sports has his defensive rating only at 113 points per 100 possessions when he is on the floor. This is with a roster of players that play good defense individually... He isn't that bad at defense though. No clue why you keep bringing up Kyrie. I am not defending Kyrie's defense. That has been a knock on him for awhile now and literally supports nothing that says Isiah's defense isn't god awful.

-Suggest or use his size as an excuse, it really doesn't fucking matter. It doesn't change the fact he is shitty at defense. A lot of true bigs (shaq, deandre jordan, drummond, etc) are shitty at shooting FTs or FGs in general because of their size. Regardless the point of the analogy was regardless of their body it doesnt change the fact they suck ass at shooting despite "suggesting" their size plays a role into it.


-If I were a GM that would be noted, and everything else would be noted. Taking everything into consideration I would be an idiot GM to take IT over Butler/PG period.


-Bradley was out after game 1 that entire series thus ITs usage rate went up. He only played 6 games, so his average is a little pumped up from his 2 good games at home in boston. Look at the games they lost. He was efficient at all, and thus the Hawks beat them. This is without even considering his shitty defense. The celtics best perimeter defender goes down (bradley) and all of sudden the Hawks are dropping over 100 pts every game (except one game). Hmmm.....


-Well it will take awhile to find out, because these GMs realize these guys are too good to be traded once, let alone twice in their careers.


-GTFO trying to pull the sleeper card on me, just because you are wrong. You are literally the only person defending IT's atrocious defense. Also lol at substance free. The only substance you provided is "IT gives up 113 pts per 100 possessions when he is on the floor. He is on the 4th page of the defensive ratings, but hey that's not that bad!" Every NBA scout would agree with me that IT is a shitty defender. I never asked sleeper for any help, I don't need it. You're reaching really hard if you are trying to pull that bullshit.

I'm giving you Kyrie as a comparison. You know how comparisons work? Like I did with Lowry. Anyone else? Dennis Schroder? His defensive wins shared is 1.7. Damian Lillard is actually worse. I still haven't found anything that'd support he's shitty at defense, especially worst in the league.

Bradley goes down and the Hawks score >100ppg (like they averaged all season long) must be IT's shitty defense! Anyone else on the Celtics have a decent offensive games to pick up the slack? They didn't have Horford yet so already down one starter did you expect them to play well and win?

Maybe they weren't traded because no other NBA GMs were making decent enough offers on stars on teams barely above .500. But if you think it's because the Pacers and Bulls so strongly valued them (despite them associated with numerous trade rumors) then that's okay, too.

I've actually provided numerous references suggesting he's not as bad as you make him out to be. Problem is it takes you a half-dozen posts to go back and read then you still ignore it anyways. And oh no, I'm the only one defending him. It's like a three person argument not counting CoA sucking you off two minutes after you post. We done with this now? Good. Agree to disagree.

friendfromlowry;1839663 wrote:I'm giving you Kyrie as a comparison. You know how comparisons work? Like I did with Lowry. Anyone else? Dennis Schroder? His defensive wins shared is 1.7. Damian Lillard is actually worse. I still haven't found anything that'd support he's shitty at defense, especially worst in the league.

Bradley goes down and the Hawks score >100ppg (like they averaged all season long) must be IT's shitty defense! Anyone else on the Celtics have a decent offensive games to pick up the slack? They didn't have Horford yet so already down one starter did you expect them to play well and win?

Maybe they weren't traded because no other NBA GMs were making decent enough offers on stars on teams barely above .500. But if you think it's because the Pacers and Bulls so strongly valued them (despite them associated with numerous trade rumors) then that's okay, too.

I've actually provided numerous references suggesting he's not as bad as you make him out to be. Problem is it takes you a half-dozen posts to go back and read then you still ignore it anyways. And oh no, I'm the only one defending him. It's like a three person argument not counting CoA sucking you off two minutes after you post. We done with this now? Good. Agree to disagree.

True sign of being butthurt about being wrong, making childish statements. He (and I) provided plenty of links and dispelled you links. You chose to ignore them. Great things about NBA stats, they're real whether you want to believe them or not.

Commander of Awesome;1839664 wrote:True sign of being butthurt about being wrong, making childish statements. He (and I) provided plenty of links and dispelled you links. You chose to ignore them. Great things about NBA stats, they're real whether you want to believe them or not.

Yeah stats are real until they don't look nice for players that I like. If IT makes the HOF, you will no doubt be sucking him off like you do with LT right now.

friendfromlowry;1839663 wrote:I'm giving you Kyrie as a comparison. You know how comparisons work? Like I did with Lowry. Anyone else? Dennis Schroder? His defensive wins shared is 1.7. Damian Lillard is actually worse. I still haven't found anything that'd support he's shitty at defense, especially worst in the league.

Bradley goes down and the Hawks score >100ppg (like they averaged all season long) must be IT's shitty defense! Anyone else on the Celtics have a decent offensive games to pick up the slack? They didn't have Horford yet so already down one starter did you expect them to play well and win?

Maybe they weren't traded because no other NBA GMs were making decent enough offers on stars on teams barely above .500. But if you think it's because the Pacers and Bulls so strongly valued them (despite them associated with numerous trade rumors) then that's okay, too.

I've actually provided numerous references suggesting he's not as bad as you make him out to be. Problem is it takes you a half-dozen posts to go back and read then you still ignore it anyways. And oh no, I'm the only one defending him. It's like a three person argument not counting CoA sucking you off two minutes after you post. We done with this now? Good. Agree to disagree.

He's a top player in the league. Don't let the haters pile on the "Well he sucks at defense" idea.

Nice work calling out CoA. It's about time he took his mouth out of Otto Graham and put it back on LT.

Cavs scoring tonight!

Kyrie is spectacular.

sleeper;1839669 wrote:Yeah stats are real until they don't look nice for players that I like. If IT makes the HOF, you will no doubt be sucking him off like you do with LT right now.

You just posted on the last page how IT is a bottom 5 defensive player in the league. Are you that butt hurt over the Otto graham discussion? LOL

Also, sleeper is agreeing with you Lowry. That's all you need to know. /lowrylogic

23 3's made tonight for Cavs

Ironman92;1839681 wrote:23 3's made tonight for Cavs

And the hawks are still in this game....

Fucking inexcusable.

How the hell did we choke this lead away? Loll

SportsAndLady;1839684 wrote:How the hell did we choke this lead away? Loll

IT-like defense

Embarrassing. This win feels like a loss.

LeBron 38/13/8

Kyrie 43/9 ast/4 steals

Cleveland fans are blessed to have the best player on the planet and also one of the most exciting to watch players on the planet.