raiderbuck;1743467 wrote:I agreed with your first post in this thread, but the above just does not jive with this Dubose situation. The cop chose to open the guy's car door. In what world or police handbook, tells you that it is ok to open the car door in a situation like that? Furthermore, he opened the door with his left hand, and with his right pointed the gun into the car. You can clearly hear the cop ask him to take his seat belt off while simultaneously grabbing on Dubose's car.

The cop reacted, and he reacted poorly. Plain and simple.

the cops right hand was on top of the car and empty when he reached to open the door with his left hand. its clear as day on the video. and generally you get people out of the car, so people don't turn the car on and drive away in these situations.

sherm03;1743368 wrote:No idea why he turned it on. And he definitely shouldn't have. But turning on your ignition doesn't mean you should be shot in the head. The cop tried to open the Drivers door...which is wrong. He never gave the driver a lawful order to step out of the car before trying to open the driver's door...which is wrong. And he panicked and went for the lethal option first...which is wrong. Then he lied about it in his report to cover it up...which is also wrong. All of that will lead to him going to jail.

generally speaking, Cops are not required to try other options before going to a lethal option if the threat of serious bodily injury is there. you most certainly can skip levels of the force continuum if needed.

just for perspective, here is what I expect to see if there was a dashboard video and that you cant see because of the position and proximity of the body cam to the car.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

sherm03;1743368 wrote:No idea why he turned it on. And he definitely shouldn't have. But turning on your ignition doesn't mean you should be shot in the head.

Completely agree. However, if he hadn't turned on his ignition he would still be alive.

To some extent I think these stories are fueling poor decisions that give rise to such situation. People start thinking "oh no, crazy cop is harassing me so I better do something to keep myself from getting shot".

You can try to run and maybe avoid being arrested for a few days, but you do so at the risk of serious bodily harm. Yes, there are some bad cops out there. But there's virtually no focus on being a good citizen and how to avoid escalating matters for such situation to potentially arise.

To some extent I think these stories are fueling poor decisions that give rise to such situation. People start thinking "oh no, crazy cop is harassing me so I better do something to keep myself from getting shot".

You can try to run and maybe avoid being arrested for a few days, but you do so at the risk of serious bodily harm. Yes, there are some bad cops out there. But there's virtually no focus on being a good citizen and how to avoid escalating matters for such situation to potentially arise.

totally agree.

This article gave a very interesting break down and made me re-think some things about this incident. (Ignore the poor grammar and spelling and just pay attention to the content).
http://brandonjsullivan.com/rants/instant-replay-samuel-dubose/

He brings up 2 main points: the driver grabbing the officer's arm and the officer being dragged.

The first question I have in response to those points: should the officer have reached into the car in the first place? There is a lot of talk about officer safety when it comes to interactions during traffic stops. So if someone is turning on the ignition, what's the protocol? Should the officer reach into the car and put himself in danger to try to stop the subject from fleeing? Or should he step back and prepare to give chase? I honestly don't know. But I'd be interested to know what the procedure manual states and officer should do in that situation. My second question: what is the timing of the dragging? If you go frame by frame, does the officer get dragged before he discharges his weapon? Or is he dragged after discharging the weapon? That is a key point in determining if he is in the right or wrong.

In an article I read, two officers, who were behind the traffic stop,(I.e. The same vantage point a dash cam would provide) stated that the officer wasn't dragged. If I can find the article, I'll post it. It'd be interesting if those officers' body cams become public as well

bigkahuna;1743853 wrote:In an article I read, two officers, who were behind the traffic stop,(I.e. The same vantage point a dash cam would provide) stated that the officer wasn't dragged. If I can find the article, I'll post it. It'd be interesting if those officers' body cams become public as well

That's very interesting. I had not read that. I'd be interested in seeing their body cam footage as well.

another officer killed
"CNN)A manhunt is underway for a suspect who fatally shot a police officer during a traffic stop in Tennessee, authorities said Sunday. Memphis Police Officer Sean Bolton, 33, was shot multiple times Saturday night by a person who was in the car he pulled over, police said.

<noscript><img alt="Memphis Police officer Sean Bolton was shot and killed during a traffic stop." class="media__image" src="http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/150802032850-memphis-police-officer-sean-bolton-large-169.jpg"></noscript>Memphis Police officer Sean Bolton was shot and killed during a traffic stop.

The assailant remains at large, Memphis police spokeswoman Karen Rudolph said.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/02/us/memphis-officer-killed-traffic-stop/

bigkahuna;1743853 wrote:In an article I read, two officers, who were behind the traffic stop,(I.e. The same vantage point a dash cam would provide) stated that the officer wasn't dragged. If I can find the article, I'll post it. It'd be interesting if those officers' body cams become public as well

this is where it gets confusing. the two officers did say that originally according to reports and the DA was calling the shooting officer a liar etc. So the other two cops were in the hot seat for their statements. Then the DA comes out and said it was just a misunderstanding and the officers' statements were something else and they wouldn't be charged for lying. I almost think this DA pulled what the Baltimore DA did by saying too much too soon. I think the Cinci DA calling the shooting officer a liar was a dumb move based on a slim view of the actual event.

isadore;1743872 wrote:another officer killed
"CNN)A manhunt is underway for a suspect who fatally shot a police officer during a traffic stop in Tennessee, authorities said Sunday. Memphis Police Officer Sean Bolton, 33, was shot multiple times Saturday night by a person who was in the car he pulled over, police said.

<noscript><img alt="Memphis Police officer Sean Bolton was shot and killed during a traffic stop." class="media__image" src="http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/150802032850-memphis-police-officer-sean-bolton-large-169.jpg"></noscript>Memphis Police officer Sean Bolton was shot and killed during a traffic stop.

The assailant remains at large, Memphis police spokeswoman Karen Rudolph said.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/02/us/memphis-officer-killed-traffic-stop/

all because of a "chicken shit" traffic stop checking on a car parked illegally. how can anything that minor end up violent? I am sure the cinci DA could explain.

sherm03;1743843 wrote:This article gave a very interesting break down and made me re-think some things about this incident. (Ignore the poor grammar and spelling and just pay attention to the content).
http://brandonjsullivan.com/rants/instant-replay-samuel-dubose/

He brings up 2 main points: the driver grabbing the officer's arm and the officer being dragged.

The first question I have in response to those points: should the officer have reached into the car in the first place? There is a lot of talk about officer safety when it comes to interactions during traffic stops. So if someone is turning on the ignition, what's the protocol? Should the officer reach into the car and put himself in danger to try to stop the subject from fleeing? Or should he step back and prepare to give chase? I honestly don't know. But I'd be interested to know what the procedure manual states and officer should do in that situation. My second question: what is the timing of the dragging? If you go frame by frame, does the officer get dragged before he discharges his weapon? Or is he dragged after discharging the weapon? That is a key point in determining if he is in the right or wrong.

I think I saw a similar article. This video is going to be picked apart when this case goes to trial. I think most people only focus on the shooting itself and not what is actually going on in the whole situation. I actually think LAPD gets it right in regards to videos. they don't release any videos of incidents like this until the case is closed.

the problem is, there is no way to have some by the book answer for every situation. and usually when there is, its because something like this happens. and for every time a cop follows the by the book answer, there is a time when the cop doesn't and the situation turns out just fine. imagine if the officer does nothing but stand back as the guy flees only to hit a kid on a bike a block away? generally you don't want to reach into the car, but sometimes it has to happen. I've done it when I found a drunk driver passed out at a redlight with the car in drive etc.

gut;1743784 wrote:Completely agree. However, if he hadn't turned on his ignition he would still be alive.

To some extent I think these stories are fueling poor decisions that give rise to such situation. People start thinking "oh no, crazy cop is harassing me so I better do something to keep myself from getting shot".

You can try to run and maybe avoid being arrested for a few days, but you do so at the risk of serious bodily harm. Yes, there are some bad cops out there. But there's virtually no focus on being a good citizen and how to avoid escalating matters for such situation to potentially arise.

Exactly.

sherm03;1743843 wrote:This article gave a very interesting break down and made me re-think some things about this incident. (Ignore the poor grammar and spelling and just pay attention to the content).
http://brandonjsullivan.com/rants/instant-replay-samuel-dubose/

He brings up 2 main points: the driver grabbing the officer's arm and the officer being dragged.

The first question I have in response to those points: should the officer have reached into the car in the first place? There is a lot of talk about officer safety when it comes to interactions during traffic stops. So if someone is turning on the ignition, what's the protocol? Should the officer reach into the car and put himself in danger to try to stop the subject from fleeing? Or should he step back and prepare to give chase? I honestly don't know. But I'd be interested to know what the procedure manual states and officer should do in that situation. My second question: what is the timing of the dragging? If you go frame by frame, does the officer get dragged before he discharges his weapon? Or is he dragged after discharging the weapon? That is a key point in determining if he is in the right or wrong.

I think the solution is simple.... When stopped / pulled over the first action of the driver is to turn off the car/ truck and put the keys on top of the roof or hand them to the officer... when the officer sees or request the keys on top of the car or handing them to the officer, he may then proceed to do more questioning.

Belly35;1743981 wrote:I think the solution is simple.... When stopped / pulled over the first action of the driver is to turn off the car/ truck and put the keys on top of the roof or hand them to the officer... when the officer sees or request the keys on top of the car or handing them to the officer, he may then proceed to do more questioning.

I respectfully disagree. I'm not putting my keys on the roof nor am I handing them to a cop.

Belly35;1743981 wrote:When stopped / pulled over the first action of the driver is to turn off the car/ truck and put the keys on top of the roof or hand them to the officer...

Belly is in permanent "full retard" mode.

And yet he calls me a troll, LOL.

2nd cop killed this week, this time in Shreveport.

So the Texas State Trooper who pulled over Sandra Bland pulled over the same number of whites and blacks. Even the reasons for the traffic stops were basically equal:



http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-sandra-bland-trooper-encinia-20150810-story.html

According to the 2010 United States census, the racial composition of Texas was the following:[SUP][188][/SUP]

• White American 70.4 percent (Non-Hispanic whites 45.3 percent)
• Black or African American: 11.8 percent
• American Indian: 0.7 percent
• Asian: 3.8 percent <small>(1.0 percent Indian, 0.8 percent Vietnamese, 0.6 percent Chinese, 0.4 percent Filipino, 0.3 percent Korean, 0.1 percent Japanese, 0.6 percent Other Asian)</small>
• Pacific Islander: 0.1 percent
• Some other race: 10.5 percent
• Two or more races: 2.7 percent
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas#Race_and_ethnicity

isadore;1745326 wrote:According to the 2010 United States census, the racial composition of Texas was the following:[SUP][188][/SUP]

• White American 70.4 percent (Non-Hispanic whites 45.3 percent)
• Black or African American: 11.8 percent
• American Indian: 0.7 percent
• Asian: 3.8 percent <small>(1.0 percent Indian, 0.8 percent Vietnamese, 0.6 percent Chinese, 0.4 percent Filipino, 0.3 percent Korean, 0.1 percent Japanese, 0.6 percent Other Asian)</small>
• Pacific Islander: 0.1 percent
• Some other race: 10.5 percent
• Two or more races: 2.7 percent
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas#Race_and_ethnicity

Then I guess we should stop diversity initiatives at the work place since most people in this country are white anyway.

isadore;1745326 wrote:According to the 2010 United States census, the racial composition of Texas was the following:[SUP][188][/SUP]

• White American 70.4 percent (Non-Hispanic whites 45.3 percent)
• Black or African American: 11.8 percent
• American Indian: 0.7 percent
• Asian: 3.8 percent <small>(1.0 percent Indian, 0.8 percent Vietnamese, 0.6 percent Chinese, 0.4 percent Filipino, 0.3 percent Korean, 0.1 percent Japanese, 0.6 percent Other Asian)</small>
• Pacific Islander: 0.1 percent
• Some other race: 10.5 percent
• Two or more races: 2.7 percent
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas#Race_and_ethnicity

Bullshit. I live about 25 minutes from where she was picked up. If that is the cops jurisdiction, that stretch of Waller County where she was pulled over, it is like 35% black 40% white and 25% latino.

EDIT:

I don't mean to make it sound like a rough neighborhood, it's mostly like middle class suburbs, a few little country podunk towns. I'd say lower middle class to upper lower class as far as the standard of living. It's no where near the really bad parts just down FM 290 heading to downtown.

gosh a ruddies, Waller County
Male Population 21,395 49.5%
Female Population 21,810 50.5%
White 25,254
Black or African American 10,793
Latino or Hispanic 12,536
Median HH Income 49,222 +/- 2,848
Median Family Income 57,042 +/- 6,632
Per Capita Income 21,882 +/- 1,143

http://www.wallercounty.org/demographics.php?Type=1

isadore;1745366 wrote:gosh a ruddies, Waller County
Male Population 21,395 49.5%
Female Population 21,810 50.5%
White 25,254
Black or African American 10,793
Latino or Hispanic 12,536
Median HH Income 49,222 +/- 2,848
Median Family Income 57,042 +/- 6,632
Per Capita Income 21,882 +/- 1,143

http://www.wallercounty.org/demographics.php?Type=1

Does this include the people in jail?

sleeper;1745370 wrote:Does this include the people in jail?

gosh a ruddies

Bland or Post Bland?

isadore;1745373 wrote:gosh a ruddies

Bland or Post Bland?

Who cares? When are black people going to grow up and follow the law?