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Confederate Flag doesn't hate

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majorspark's avatar

majorspark

Senior Member

5,122 posts
Jul 8, 2015 12:11 AM
Wolves of Babylon;1739481 wrote:I don't know, I think I would rather be killed than be a slave. As the saying goes, give me liberty or give me death
I have often wondered why so many of the Jews (no doubt hearing the rumors) allowed themselves to be shuttled off in cattle cars into supposed forced labor did not resist to the death. Its easy to quote give me liberty or give me death as an individual. But when the barrel of the gun is pointed at your wife and children I can understand why some may think they can get through it and survive.
Jul 7, 2015 8:11pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 8, 2015 12:21 AM
majorspark;1739494 wrote:I have often wondered why so many of the Jews (no doubt hearing the rumors) allowed themselves to be shuttled off in cattle cars into supposed forced labor did not resist to the death. Its easy to quote give me liberty or give me death as an individual. But when the barrel of the gun is pointed at your wife and children I can understand why some may think they can get through it and survive.
"Around 2.2 million Africans died during these voyages where they were packed into tight, unsanitary spaces on ships for months at a time. Measures were taken to stem the onboard mortality rate, such as enforced "dancing" (as exercise) above deck and the practice of force-feeding enslaved persons who tried to starve themselves.[SUP]"
[/SUP]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade#Atlantic_shipment

Middle Passage
Jul 7, 2015 8:21pm
W

Wolves of Babylon

Senior Member

408 posts
Jul 8, 2015 1:00 AM
majorspark;1739494 wrote:I have often wondered why so many of the Jews (no doubt hearing the rumors) allowed themselves to be shuttled off in cattle cars into supposed forced labor did not resist to the death. Its easy to quote give me liberty or give me death as an individual. But when the barrel of the gun is pointed at your wife and children I can understand why some may think they can get through it and survive.
You are right, it is easy to say now. However I just don't get why people are defending a flag because of heritage or southern pride or whatever ridiculous reason. No one is preventing people from owning a confederate flag or displaying one at your home. It just shouldn't be flying in front of government buildings. Even if you are ignore the obvious racist symbol it has become, it is still a flag that represents treason against the U.S. and should never flu on a building representing the United States.

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Jul 7, 2015 9:00pm
majorspark's avatar

majorspark

Senior Member

5,122 posts
Jul 8, 2015 1:16 AM
ptown_trojans_1;1739484 wrote:Japan is a state. The South is not. Yes, there are issues with the Japanese flag, but one cannot compare it to the Confederate flag. The South lost and did not become a country. Two different cases.
The Japs lost. We forced them to change a lot mainly their form of government. We could have forced them to change their symbols and colors of their flag and we did not because that is not what really matters. The remaking of their government is what really mattered.
ptown_trojans_1;1739484 wrote: I sorta agree on your last point. Sure, it is just a symbol and will not end racism, but come on, it is at least a step in the right direction. The flag is a symbol of hate, rebellion, and protest to civil rights. It does not deserve to be flown on Government grounds.
It should not be flown in any official capacity on government grounds but in a historical context I really have no problem with it. What really matters is the change in governance.
Jul 7, 2015 9:16pm
majorspark's avatar

majorspark

Senior Member

5,122 posts
Jul 8, 2015 1:30 AM
isadore;1739495 wrote:"Around 2.2 million Africans died during these voyages where they were packed into tight, unsanitary spaces on ships for months at a time. Measures were taken to stem the onboard mortality rate, such as enforced "dancing" (as exercise) above deck and the practice of force-feeding enslaved persons who tried to starve themselves.[SUP]"[/SUP]
And none of those 2.2 million died under the confederate battle flag. Those flags or close variations of them are flying on flag poles of nation states today.
Jul 7, 2015 9:30pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 8, 2015 1:42 AM
majorspark;1739503 wrote:And none of those 2.2 million died under the confederate battle flag. Those flags or close variations of them are flying on flag poles of nation states today.
"What’s less well known is that the Civil War also had immense significance for the ending of slavery elsewhere, especially in the Americas. Indeed, few people recognize that it took a war to finally bring the brutal transatlantic slave trade to a close. In all likelihood, without a Union victory, slavery would have remained a central institution underpinning global economic growth until possibly the present day."
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/13/the-transatlantic-slave-trade-and-the-civil-war/?_r=0
Jul 7, 2015 9:42pm
majorspark's avatar

majorspark

Senior Member

5,122 posts
Jul 8, 2015 3:38 AM
Wolves of Babylon;1739496 wrote:You are right, it is easy to say now. However I just don't get why people are defending a flag because of heritage or southern pride or whatever ridiculous reason. No one is preventing people from owning a confederate flag or displaying one at your home. It just shouldn't be flying in front of government buildings. Even if you are ignore the obvious racist symbol it has become, it is still a flag that represents treason against the U.S. and should never flu on a building representing the United States.
Are people really defending the flag or have a problem with this sudden feigned outrage against it. That is where I am at. I am not a southerner nor hold any pride in the flag. Card carrying Ohioan since birth. Had I been born 130yrs ago I would have fought to preserve the Union.

As for treason I see it primarily as a malicious attempt to over through the central government or harm it. Primarily by a small group of individuals. Not collectively leave it in mass by democratically elected governments. You are looking more at a popular rebellion. The victor does have the final say however and I get that. Lets not forget not all of the states that eventually made up the confederacy were in active rebellion against the union when Lincoln ordered them to muster troops to subdue the rebellion in the south by military invasion. This drove the remaining state governments into rebellion. As a libertarian you can understand its a big deal to be ordered to take up arms against any one especially your countrymen no matter your differences. Call them all traitors if it makes you feel better.

This is why the federal government did not have the leaders of the confederacy hung as treasonous individuals. It was a war between democratically elected government entities. One side lost.
Jul 7, 2015 11:38pm
Glory Days's avatar

Glory Days

Senior Member

7,809 posts
Jul 8, 2015 3:47 AM
John Stith Pemberton- Fought for the Confederate Army, later invented Coca Cola.

An estimated 18 million americans today had direct links to the civil war on either side.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-04-07-civil-war-anniversary-ancestors_N.htm

Robert E. Lee V is athletic director and football coach at Potomac School outside Washington. His father, Robert E. Lee IV, is a retired distillery executive whose accent hints at the city where he was raised —New York.

J.E.B. Stuart IV, a retired Army colonel and great-great-grandson of Lee's cavalry general, lives in Richmond, Va., where his son J.E.B. V is an orthopedic surgeon.

J.E.B. Stuart VI is a sophomore in college, and Robert E. Lee VI is in grade school.

Confederate Gen. Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson's great-great-grandson, Henry Shaffner, 75, is a professional songwriter who married the daughter of a Lincoln buff and has lived for the past half-century in Philadelphia.

When Dred Scott Madison II was a boy, few outside his family realized the kid called "Scott" was descended from the man whose 1857 Supreme Court case strengthened slavery's legal underpinnings and set the stage for the war. That anonymity is gone, says Madison, 52, an air-traffic controller
Jul 7, 2015 11:47pm
majorspark's avatar

majorspark

Senior Member

5,122 posts
Jul 8, 2015 3:55 AM
isadore;1739505 wrote:"What’s less well known is that the Civil War also had immense significance for the ending of slavery elsewhere, especially in the Americas. Indeed, few people recognize that it took a war to finally bring the brutal transatlantic slave trade to a close. In all likelihood, without a Union victory, slavery would have remained a central institution underpinning global economic growth until possibly the present day."
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/13/the-transatlantic-slave-trade-and-the-civil-war/?_r=0
No doubt the shedding of blood hastened the end of slavery in the Americas. The advent of the industrial age and the advance of industrialized nations would have rendered slave labor economically unfeasible. Was the death of 600,000 + Americans worth moving the needle up several decades.
Jul 7, 2015 11:55pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 8, 2015 11:49 AM
majorspark;1739531 wrote:Are people really defending the flag or have a problem with this sudden feigned outrage against it. That is where I am at. I am not a southerner nor hold any pride in the flag. Card carrying Ohioan since birth. Had I been born 130yrs ago I would have fought to preserve the Union.

As for treason I see it primarily as a malicious attempt to over through the central government or harm it. Primarily by a small group of individuals. Not collectively leave it in mass by democratically elected governments. You are looking more at a popular rebellion. The victor does have the final say however and I get that. Lets not forget not all of the states that eventually made up the confederacy were in active rebellion against the union when Lincoln ordered them to muster troops to subdue the rebellion in the south by military invasion. This drove the remaining state governments into rebellion. As a libertarian you can understand its a big deal to be ordered to take up arms against any one especially your countrymen no matter your differences. Call them all traitors if it makes you feel better.

This is why the federal government did not have the leaders of the confederacy hung as treasonous individuals. It was a war between democratically elected government entities. One side lost.
Article III, Section 3, Clause I of the Constitution. "Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against it, or in adhering to its enemies, giving them aid and comfort." You can try to make up your own definition but this is the one accepted by all the Southern leaders before secession. In fact if you substitute Confederate States for United States, it is the same definition found in Article III, Section 3, Clause I of the CSA's Constitution. That was the universally accepted definition of treason in America. Most The last 6 Confederate states had no problem with the firing on Fort Sumter but used Lincoln's attempt to save the Union as an excuse to secede. Democracy cannot succeed if people will not accept the results of popularly held elections. A slave owning clique drove secession because they could not accept Lincoln's election. His crime opposing the extension of slavery. They were traitors and they knew it, even if you won't accept it. The fact Lincoln was humane, does not change their crime.
Jul 8, 2015 7:49am
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 8, 2015 11:56 AM
majorspark;1739535 wrote:No doubt the shedding of blood hastened the end of slavery in the Americas. The advent of the industrial age and the advance of industrialized nations would have rendered slave labor economically unfeasible. Was the death of 600,000 + Americans worth moving the needle up several decades.
Gosh a ruddies doubting the value of a war to end slavery, it is so easy for you to say that given you are not a slave. Hey the Confederacy chose secession and they fired the first shots of the war at Fort Sumter. Chattel slavery was not a dying institution. in 1860 it was a growing institution in the American South. It had made the South the richest section of America at the time. The Dred Scott decision had opened up even more territory to chattel slavery.
Jul 8, 2015 7:56am
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Jul 9, 2015 7:21 AM
isadore;1739548 wrote:Gosh a ruddies doubting the value of a war to end slavery
To be fair, modern liberals would just have kept hiking the sales tax on slaves....would have made owning slaves prohibitively expensive AND soaked the rich. How could you not get behind that?
Jul 9, 2015 3:21am
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 9, 2015 11:16 AM
gut;1739720 wrote:To be fair, modern liberals would just have kept hiking the sales tax on slaves....would have made owning slaves prohibitively expensive AND soaked the rich. How could you not get behind that?
and gosh a ruddies, and to be fair modern conservatives would have called plantation owners, "job creators" and fought against any tax on them and their slave property.
Jul 9, 2015 7:16am
Belly35's avatar

Belly35

Elderly Intellectual

9,716 posts
Jul 9, 2015 11:43 AM
isadore;1739723 wrote:and gosh a ruddies, and to be fair modern conservatives would have called plantation owners, "job creators" and fought against any tax on them and their slave property.
Stop! Community organizer believes that the plantation owner didnt create those jobs government did...
Jul 9, 2015 7:43am
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Jul 9, 2015 3:55 PM
Flag will be removed tomorrow morning at 10am.

The end of racism is here.
Jul 9, 2015 11:55am
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 9, 2015 5:14 PM
a step in the right direction.
Jul 9, 2015 1:14pm
Q

QuakerOats

Senior Member

8,740 posts
Jul 9, 2015 5:32 PM
isadore;1739827 wrote:a step in the right direction.
no doubt ............ when does the book burning begin?
Jul 9, 2015 1:32pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 9, 2015 8:42 PM
QuakerOats;1739832 wrote:no doubt ............ when does the book burning begin?
gosh a ruddies they are not going to burn the flag, just put it in a museum.
Jul 9, 2015 4:42pm
rmolin73's avatar

rmolin73

Senior Member

4,278 posts
Jul 9, 2015 10:43 PM
QuakerOats;1739832 wrote:no doubt ............ when does the book burning begin?
The drama Queen speaks.
Jul 9, 2015 6:43pm
majorspark's avatar

majorspark

Senior Member

5,122 posts
Jul 9, 2015 11:15 PM
QuakerOats;1739832 wrote:no doubt ............ when does the book burning begin?
Right after they bulldoze the Jefferson memorial.
Jul 9, 2015 7:15pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jul 9, 2015 11:31 PM
majorspark;1740028 wrote:Right after they bulldoze the Jefferson memorial.
a monument to a man who raped an underage slavegirl.
Jul 9, 2015 7:31pm
Bio-Hazzzzard's avatar

Bio-Hazzzzard

Senior Member

1,027 posts
Jul 10, 2015 1:59 AM
sleeper;1739790 wrote:Flag will be removed tomorrow morning at 10am.

The end of racism is here.
Gotta love the satirical notation here.

The lowering of the flag is just an equivocation promising a change to the nation, however, more than likely will ignite the flames of the true racists.
Jul 9, 2015 9:59pm
Heretic's avatar

Heretic

Son of the Sun

18,820 posts
Jul 10, 2015 1:33 PM
rmolin73;1740015 wrote:The drama Queen speaks.
Especially since it usually seems to be the hardcore religious nuts that organize the big book burnings and shit.
Jul 10, 2015 9:33am
iclfan2's avatar

iclfan2

Reppin' the 330/216/843

6,360 posts
Jul 10, 2015 6:10 PM
Well the flag is down. Racism and murders in sc are now eliminated. They can go back to putting the flag in historical sites now, cuz that's retarded (like fort Sumter and Moultrie, which were confederate forts).


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Jul 10, 2015 2:10pm
rmolin73's avatar

rmolin73

Senior Member

4,278 posts
Jul 10, 2015 6:41 PM
iclfan2;1740239 wrote:Well the flag is down. Racism and murders in sc are now eliminated. They can go back to putting the flag in historical sites now, cuz that's retarded (like fort Sumter and Moultrie, which were confederate forts).


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The crying from you fuckers here up north is hilarious. If you can't comprehend what this means well then remain in ignorance. Better yet keep relishing a loser since you do it so well.
Jul 10, 2015 2:41pm