ClassyPoster - - - the reason Craft didnt run PG in the second half was because they box and 1'ed Aaron Craft and threw Eli on him. Eli was so close to Craft that he could have kissed him. LB's coach didnt want to see his team run without Craft...Genoa wanted to see LB run without Craft. Heck LBs coach was yelling at Craft in the 3rd quarter...."You need to get the ball and be our PG"... Craft didnt say anything but he gave him a look like what do you want me to do.

Sorry for 3 consecutive posts in a row but heres a little example of REFS improving before COACHES....

Im sure this is happening with Rolf too...

A good coach will tell Wonnell that he is 6'9'' and doesnt need to do ANYTHING to block a shot. Put your hands up. Dont move. That will alter the shot. (Biggest thing Wonnell has done this year....not get himself into foul trouble and it has helped a ton, solid defender)

Now come game time he does just that. He is in great position and simply puts his hands up. A player runs into him and they call a foul on Wonnell. How is it far to "penalize" someone for being tall or strong?

The refs need to improve WAY before coaching should because good coaching wont show until the refs let the players actually play. Sorry for blowing off steam... Im not made that Genoa lost yesterday...they didnt deserve to win. Im just sick of going to SLL basketball games and seeing terrible officials after terrible officials after terrible officials....and its been like that for years now!

How about everyone start's playing better basketball and quit bitching about the ref's? You ever tried to officiate a game? It's a thankless and hard job filled with having to listen to idiot's like us moan and complain about everything that doesnt go their way.

You want break's like Liberty-Benton gets? Play better basketball and earn it!

In my opinion, every SLL team should play Liberty Benton every year and learn from what this team does. LB plays basketball the way every SLL team wishes they do. I look at that LB team and imagine how good Genoa or a few other SLL teams could be if they played that way. LB is not the most talented team every night but plays like one and that's how they win.

I find myself no longer blaming referees for bad calls or no calls because you're going to have lackluster officiating all over in high school basketball. It's just something you cannot change. I mean in some aspects of the game, at least in SLL play, I don't envy a referee at all. I mean what are they supposed to do on certain plays where there are so many loose balls and players falling all over eachother so often? Or on some rebounding situations nobody is in position for the board and you get three of four players just jumping into eachother. What wold you call? A few times during games I find myself humming circus music because that's the only metaphor I can think of. As soon as the SLL plays better the reffing problems wont be as evident.

Tinkertrain wrote: How about everyone start's playing better basketball and quit bitching about the ref's? You ever tried to officiate a game? It's a thankless and hard job filled with having to listen to idiot's like us moan and complain about everything that doesnt go their way.

You want break's like Liberty-Benton gets? Play better basketball and earn it!

Well you are right about that. Basketball games are extremely hard to ref because they're so subjective. It's easily to say call it by the rule book but there's so many different circumstances

Ok Talk let me put this in your terms. If a pitcher is wild then throws a close pitch close to the corner etc what happens? A good ump will not give him the call as he has been wild all day. If the pitcher was not been wild he will probably get that call. In basketball refs are not going to bailout a player when they are not under control flying thru the lane etc quite a bit. If said was playing under control(Craft) and then drove to hole he is more often than not going to get a call. Thats what Tink and I are talking about basketball knowledge.

Your case was not made any better with the pitcher/umpire analogy. The ump either believes it was a strike or not. Previous pitches made have NOTHING to do with the next pitch. Why should they? To have "knowledge" of those referees or umpires who call the game that way, fine, that is helpful to the success of a basketball or baseball player. But to say that the referee is "good" because they make calls for those reasons is just wrong, and against the spirit and fairness of the game.

^^^ Talk will understand He pitches in college He knows exactly what I am talking about

It is not a matter of understanding. I had a college scholarship in baseball. It is a matter of agreeing with your contention that it is OK to go against the rules of the game. I say no.

The debate here seems to be the way things are (unfortunately too often) and the way things ought to be. There is no logical positiion to take except to agree with Ross -- Follow the rules. Call the game accordingly. While officiating is not an exact science, this fundamental principle must be applied. Otherwise, the official is overstepping his authority. Period.

Happens in every sport. Like it or not. The players with the knowledge of that sport understand how to work the ump/ref to get the calls. We can agree to disagree. But I cant reward a player who is out of control when driving to hoop etc Again if you watch the game a player out of control usually does not get the call. A player under control usually does. Like it or not thats is the way its always been.

You are deviating from your original statements. There was nothing about "out of control"...you said there would be fouls sometimes that you would not call. No way that can be justified. Dribbling against a zone you said would get a player penalized whereby it would be justified not to call a foul. No way that can be justified. You were talking not only about the "way it has always been", but how it ought to be. The only thing we agree on is that having knowledge of how a ref is going to call a game can be very important. Otherwise, the debate is pointless.

insurance guy- I know exactly what your talking about....I understand that refs are not "robots" and they are just human beings. However, refs or umpires are to call a foul when they see it or call a strike when it is a strike. Does that happen....no! I feel calling a strike when a pitcher is everywhere is alot harder than to call a foul when a player is getting thrown to the ground or pushed to the ground trying to drive to the basket in control or not. Im just sick of High school officiating in basketball. I understand your points 100% and I know what you say is correct. Like I said, if Genoas big 3 are getting knocked to the ground frequently...something is wrong! But it is ok for you to be patty cake when the ball is on the other end of the court.

Peoples points say this though....an SLL team can never beat LB because they dont play "pure basketball". They dont play the game right in driving to the basket or playing "under control". LB deserves more calls or fewer calls because of their reputation. Everyone with a sports brain HAS to know that that is just BS. However, that is exactly what happened. You cant come into a game as a ref, fan, player, coach, or whoever and already have a team checked off as a loss. THINGS HAPPEN!

^^^ I agree no game should be checked off as a loss by anyone.
L-B does have a reputation. I agree. But they earned it by playing the game the correct way. Which is why they drilled Genoa in the 1st half. Any ref could see L-B knew exactly how to play the game and Genoas knowledge was questionable at best. You earned the right your Senior year in baseball to get calls because you played the game the proper way was around the plate all the time and earned that reputation. And yes calls went your way but you definately earned them. Same thing here . Genoa as a team is not earning those calls because good refs dont respect the way Genoa or the SLL for that matter is playing the game. Trust me I have talked with a couple refs and they state the SLL has talent but they have average coaching which is leading to average knowledge of the game. There is a way to get calls in any sport and in basketball the SLL lacks knowledge in that area.

Agree with that^^^^......

The last thing I will say about this whole thing is that

Good Reputation shouldn't equal favoritism in calling a game. It happens but shouldnt. Even if Genoa was the team being favored... I would still say it shouldnt happen. A good ref should be able to look past reputations or styles of play.

^^^ Now that I agree with. But since that will never happen as long as we are alive the SLL or some team in the SLL needs to earn that reputation.

You don't EARN anything by reputation in terms of getting different calls than someone else. When the game starts, EVERYONE should be equal under the rules of the game and in the eyes of those who officiate it. We are not supposed to use words such as "stupid" in terms of arguments, but if I could....L-B and Craft have earned nothing with respect to favoritism. They may be getting it, but it is flat out wrong.

^^^ In a perfect that would happen. But again it never does and never will. You are complaining about the problem instead of fixing it. One thing I've always said the ump/ref is not going to adjust to you or your team. You have to adjust to them. The definition on insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and still getting the same result. That is what the SLL does. We keep doing the same thing and expect the different results. We need to change the way we play the game not the refs calls or lack there of. A good team figures out how the game is going to be called and plays accordingly. Genoa and SLL does not change or even try too. Once you see that a call is not going to be made why would you keep doing the same thing? Go a different direction. By the time Genoa figured that out it was way too late. Again basketball knowledge.

Finally that last post I can agree with. But that is NOT and never has been the objection from some of us to what you said earlier -- that GOOD refs will and should call the game differently because of who you are and how you play the game, and that thinking is just nonsense.
Best judgment and equal treatment is the only acceptable way to attempt to do the job of referee or umpire. Should good teams adjest to a ceertain style of officiating? Of course.

Central Catholic 51
Genoa 34

I couldn't make the game but I was told CC was just too fast. It makes sense because CC is ranked #1 in The Blade poll for D1. Genoa is now 3-3 but the hardest part of their schedule is over. They have 5 games until they play Eastwood at home 1/28, and then Clyde at home is 2/6. All the games in between (as well as Eastwood/Clyde) are very winnable.

bwcomet89 wrote: Central Catholic 51
Genoa 34

I couldn't make the game but I was told CC was just too fast. It makes sense because CC is ranked #1 in The Blade poll for D1. Genoa is now 3-3 but the hardest part of their schedule is over. They have 5 games until they play Eastwood at home 1/28, and then Clyde at home is 2/6. All the games in between (as well as Eastwood/Clyde) are very winnable.

bwcomet, it would appear that the Eastwood game may not be as challenging as many thought. The Eagles lost 54-44 to a struggling Elmwood team last night and right now, with the possible exception of Genoa, there may not be a single team in the SII that can be called a good team. Otsego? I really like their coach. Perhaps they will emerge.

We shouldn't make too much of any one game.

^^ Ok I won't. The SLL is 10-19 out of conference so far this year. Not one really good win against a quality team. Eastwood,Elmwood,Genoa and Otsego the supposed top 4 are 4-11 out of conference. The SLL is bad and quite frankly I have yet to see anything that is making me think this is going to change.

The Genoa vs CC game could have been closer. Should have Genoa won....ummm NO!!! However, they missed about 2 million layups, a couple turnovers, and CC is a very good team.

KEY NOTES FOR THE GAME.....The refs were actually really good

They actually let the players play the game and didnt have fun blowing their dang whistles all night....imagine that....city league officials better than SLL officials....never thought that would be the case

Ive told many people that Eastwood isnt nearly as good as last year and I have a feeling Genoa will put a hurting on them when they come to comet country...Genoa shot terribly and still made a game of it in the first meeting!