how can you make me believe in (and obey) all the traffic laws of a country if you don't allow me to see the written laws? I can take someone's word for it, or i can be more sure and look at the actual laws.
. "the laws" are in the Bible. No one can "make" anyone believe them. It's every man's right and choice to do what he thinks is right. The consequences of making the right choice are pretty significant: eternity in hell or eternity in heaven. People tend to laugh it off and ridicule any who try to point others in the direction they think they should go. But in the end it's your choice and only yours. I pray you make the right one.

sleeper wrote:

ytownfootball wrote: Are you a betting man?

Don't accept = going to hell

Do accept = going to heaven

Seems like all gain and no loss to me.

Person A is a poor man living in small village in Africa who gives all his money to other people and lives the most basic of lives. He helps his friends and family toil in the fields, always treats people better than himself, and doesn't lie, cheat, steal or have sex before marriage. He has never heard of God, but lives the best possible life that he can.

Person B is a Catholic priest who molests children(because really, do they do anything else?), but without a doubt believes there is a God.

Who goes to heaven?

Well sadly according to Christianity the Priest gets to go. That is why I contend Christianty is an immoral position. That and many other reasons why it is immoral.

This alleged god (whatever it is) is going to punish people for not believing when it does not come down and show itself to everyone.

A first hand sighting of god is revelation them tell me it is so is hearsay. So because of hearsay this alleged god is going to roast people for all eternity.

Christians will plea, but it is your choice you chose to go to hell god does not want you to go to hell but you choose it so god is still good.

BAH that is one of the most immoral worldviews I have ever heard. It is exactly the same as this.

A young man holds a gun to a girls head and says " love me or I will kill you." She says No! he pulls the trigger and she is dead.

However according to the Christian worldview that is not immoral in fact he is godlike. Why?

Because she CHOOSE to die the young man did not want to kill her and he gave her a choice in the matter.

If you claim that god does not have to abide by that rule that is called special pleading and is logical fallacy and does not stand up to sound reasoning.

Christianity is an immoral worldview. A god who roasts people in hell for all eternity.

Remember though god loves you unconditionally/ rollseyes.

^^ diagree...that's not what christianity says.

Christianity? Overall, it's an unnecessary thing designed to promote one belief as the "one true" belief. No need to be convinced about it being good, bad, both or neither.

Pretty much all religions have their parables and tales detailing how to live a good life and there is good to be gained from reading and applying the lessons learned in a number of them. At the very least, the attitude that being a good, caring person is a desirable goal is a good one to have. But you don't need to attach a religious label to good deeds for them to have merit. And the whole, "do you want to burn in hell?" argument is just a pathetic scare tactic. Yeah.....who cares if you're a good person? If you don't subscribe to this belief, you're screwed! The epitome of comedy... SMH

Besides, these types of posts clearly are just aiming for put-downs, antagonisms, ridicule and the like.

Damn, I was right after all, eh?

BCSbunk wrote:

sleeper wrote:

ytownfootball wrote: Are you a betting man?

Don't accept = going to hell

Do accept = going to heaven

Seems like all gain and no loss to me.

Person A is a poor man living in small village in Africa who gives all his money to other people and lives the most basic of lives. He helps his friends and family toil in the fields, always treats people better than himself, and doesn't lie, cheat, steal or have sex before marriage. He has never heard of God, but lives the best possible life that he can.

Person B is a Catholic priest who molests children(because really, do they do anything else?), but without a doubt believes there is a God.

Who goes to heaven?

Well sadly according to Christianity the Priest gets to go. That is why I contend Christianty is an immoral position. That and many other reasons why it is immoral.

This alleged god (whatever it is) is going to punish people for not believing when it does not come down and show itself to everyone.

A first hand sighting of god is revelation them tell me it is so is hearsay. So because of hearsay this alleged god is going to roast people for all eternity.

Christians will plea, but it is your choice you chose to go to hell god does not want you to go to hell but you choose it so god is still good.

BAH that is one of the most immoral worldviews I have ever heard. It is exactly the same as this.

A young man holds a gun to a girls head and says " love me or I will kill you." She says No! he pulls the trigger and she is dead.

However according to the Christian worldview that is not immoral in fact he is godlike. Why?

Because she CHOOSE to die the young man did not want to kill her and he gave her a choice in the matter.

If you claim that god does not have to abide by that rule that is called special pleading and is logical fallacy and does not stand up to sound reasoning.

Christianity is an immoral worldview. A god who roasts people in hell for all eternity.

Remember though god loves you unconditionally/ rollseyes.

I think you have it wrong and a little misguided.

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)

It is also mentioned by Paul that those who follow the law will be judged by the law and that God judges all people righteously. I believe it also says those that never heard of the law will be judged by the law that God has placed in their hearts.

So I take this as if you follow the spirit/laws of Jesus Christ, you can enter into heaven without knowing his name. I think we are judged on what we know and how we act on it. So if you know about Jesus and fail to accept his as your savior, then you will go to Hell.

Also for this whole thing to work, God does give us all the law in our heart and our conscience and it is that reason if we disobey that we will be punished.

It is just like having children or employees at your job, if you tell them the law, make sure they understand the law, follow up with them and they still break the law, they deserved to be punished.

ricola wrote: how can you make me believe in (and obey) all the traffic laws of a country if you don't allow me to see the written laws? I can take someone's word for it, or i can be more sure and look at the actual laws.
. "the laws" are in the Bible. No one can "make" anyone believe them. It's every man's right and choice to do what he thinks is right. The consequences of making the right choice are pretty significant: eternity in hell or eternity in heaven. People tend to laugh it off and ridicule any who try to point others in the direction they think they should go. But in the end it's your choice and only yours. I pray you make the right one.

Can you prove there is a heaven or a hell? And why should the bible have any more credibility than say, a fiction novel?

of course it can't be proved. That's why it's called faith. And that's the great question everyone needs to answer own their own: is the Bible any more credible than a fiction novel? With the stakes as high as they are (or as high as some claim they are--the whole heaven and hell thing) it would behoove people to make sure they are certain of the answer to it. There are many who have studied that very question in depth, and many books written about it ("Evidence That Demands a Verdict" e.g.) who have come to their own conclusions. That's all anyone can ask, that you make an informed decision on your own-- rather than ridicule and antagonize anyone who might suggest otherwise. But of course that's your--or anyone's-- right as well. Just hope you're right.

Apple wrote: Is it possible to go to heaven if you, 1. follow the teachings of Jesus and 2. are not be a member of an organized church?

all you have to do is #1...never have to set foot in a church, and --unfortunately--you'd be far ahead of many people that are church members and/or regular church attenders.

tinkertrain, if you were actually serious or curious for answers, I would post my ideas. But, I know your responses from the last site and that you are "probably" trying to make this a non-serious thread. But, if you are serious and are interested in the Christian faith, pm someone who is a Christian on this site, instead of people arguing back and forth.

Cat's

The purpose of this thread is to get a guage on how many people have actually thought through their faith rather than just blindly following without thought. Believe it or not the majority of threads I post have a purpose other than just creating argument's.

Also if I were genuinely interested in christianity I would not post about it here and you would be about the last person i'd seek council from.

Some of you people will never get it. By the way....Jesus is the Son of God.....

onedawgpain wrote: Some of you people will never get it. By the way....Jesus is the Son of God.....

so waht?

TinkerTrain:

No matter how well you make your argument, I don't really understand what it is you hope to accomplish here. I think I'm pretty safe in guessing that exaclty 0 people will change, or even really take a hard look at their religious beliefs based on the posts of an anonymous poster on an internet message board.

Apple wrote: The Golden Rule works for me. Sometimes the most simple of concepts are best.

The golden rule predates Christianity.

sleeper wrote:
Can you prove there is a heaven or a hell? And why should the bible have any more credibility than say, a fiction novel?

Actually, there's quite a lot of independent evidence that (for example) Jesus Christ was an actual person. What exactly he was certainly remains a matter of faith.

Tinkertrain wrote: That christianity is the right path WITHOUT using bible versus.

Every major early disciple died a horribly painful death as a martyr for what they had lived and done (except for John, who died after merely being exiled to a remote island for his beliefs).

A man will die for what he knows to be true or what he believes to be true, but no man will die for something that he knows to be false. Therefore, it stands to reason that one of two scenarios is possible.
1) The early martyrs believed that their time with Jesus was time spent with the son of God and concocted an elaborate death and resurrection story to bear that out (even though it would also stand to reason that the death would be the final bell for this idea; many before Jesus had counseled or led the Israelites, and all had died and resulted in their various splinter factions dying away as well), or
2) What they wrote in the Gospels is what they witnessed and experienced.

The writings of Paul seem to bear out the second point. Paul ended up being tried and executed in Rome for being a Christian. Yet he was a Pharisee who persecuted the early church until a personal experience. He was there with the early church as it grew from a few hundred people into blanketing the Middle East and into Greece and Rome. Would Paul be willing to die for something that he knew never happened? Or would he be willing to die for refusing to deny something that he experienced?

dislike.

queencitybuckeye wrote:

sleeper wrote:
Can you prove there is a heaven or a hell? And why should the bible have any more credibility than say, a fiction novel?

Actually, there's quite a lot of independent evidence that (for example) Jesus Christ was an actual person. What exactly he was certainly remains a matter of faith.

Correct.

But, that does not prove that he's the Son of God, and there has NEVER been any evidence of any divine SHIT other than in the bible throughout history.

The DaVinci Code by Dan Brown has a lot of history in it too, but the story is 100% false. I feel that's a good comparison for the bible, but what the hell do I know, I'm just an atheist.

sleeper wrote:

queencitybuckeye wrote:

sleeper wrote:
Can you prove there is a heaven or a hell? And why should the bible have any more credibility than say, a fiction novel?

Actually, there's quite a lot of independent evidence that (for example) Jesus Christ was an actual person. What exactly he was certainly remains a matter of faith.

Correct.

But, that does not prove that he's the Son of God, and there has NEVER been any evidence of any divine SHIT other than in the bible throughout history.

The DaVinci Code by Dan Brown has a lot of history in it too, but the story is 100% false. I feel that's a good comparison for the bible, but what the hell do I know, I'm just an atheist.

Divine shit lol

sleeper wrote:

ytownfootball wrote: Are you a betting man?

Don't accept = going to hell

Do accept = going to heaven

Seems like all gain and no loss to me.

Person A is a poor man living in small village in Africa who gives all his money to other people and lives the most basic of lives. He helps his friends and family toil in the fields, always treats people better than himself, and doesn't lie, cheat, steal or have sex before marriage. He has never heard of God, but lives the best possible life that he can.

Person B is a Catholic priest who molests children(because really, do they do anything else?), but without a doubt believes there is a God.

Who goes to heaven?

Whichever one believes Jesus saved them from their sins.

What you have to understand is that in the eyes of God, no sin is worse than any other sin.

So, while that child molesting priest's sin looks much worse than say just that African saying one white lie sometime in his life, in God's eyes the 2 sins are the same. There is no "worse" sin, they all separate us from God, period, no matter how "white" or "dark" the sin is.

So, also, you'd be surpised how many African's have had the chance due to missionaries to accept it.

There's your answer to your question according to the Bible.

If the Priest truly believes in Jesus Christ as his savior and has asked him to take away his sins, he goes to heaven.

If the African truly believes in Jesus Christ as his savior and has asked him to take away his sins, he goes to heaven.

So, to answer your question, no one truly knows but the person himself/herself if they are going to heaven, because only THEY know if they've accepted Jesus.

How about we get away from the garbage hypotheticals of "who gets into Heaven?" when NO ONE on Earth could know for certain?

The only thing that's guaranteed is that you'll be judged and sent to wherever you deserve to go.

So what you are saying essentially is I can kill people and still go to heaven?

What's the point of living a moral life then? Right before I die, I'm going to say "Jesus I believe in you, and I ask for your forgiveness. I really didn't meant to kill 1,000 people, or rape those babies, can I come to heaven?"

Delusional.

NNN wrote: How about we get away from the garbage hypotheticals of "who gets into Heaven?" when NO ONE on Earth could know for certain?

The only thing that's guaranteed is that you'll be judged and sent to wherever you deserve to go.

Guaranteed? LOL

I don't think its guaranteed that you will be judged, unless you have some evidence to the contrary.

sleeper wrote:

Correct.

But, that does not prove that he's the Son of God, and there has NEVER been any evidence of any divine SHIT other than in the bible throughout history.

The DaVinci Code by Dan Brown has a lot of history in it too, but the story is 100% false. I feel that's a good comparison for the bible, but what the hell do I know, I'm just an atheist.

Actually Josephus (Yosef Ben Matityahu) was a Jewish historian from the late 1st century AD who wrote on many historical facts from the Roman destruction of the Jewish temple to the political happenings between Rome and Jerusalem. He was a stated non-believer in Jesus as the Christ but also talked about Jesus being a miracle worker.

A non-believer from that time, saying Jesus was a miracle worker....but that can't be true could it?

I mean...really, no one but Christians really believe Jesus did miracles?

The people who saw him do them did, and they wrote about it even if they didn't believe he was the "Messiah" for the Jews.