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A

Al Bundy

Senior Member

4,180 posts
Jan 26, 2015 8:48 PM
isadore;1700057 wrote:gosh a ruddies, counter examples, really. What the bulk of studies show 1. America less social mobility than most other advanced nations. 2. Social mobility is declining in America and our society is becoming more stratified. 3. That the nations with greater social mobility invest a larger part of their government spending in social welfare programs.
If you had any clue how logic works, you would know that it only takes one counterexample to prove your absolute statements to be false.

As far as your other studies, you are trying to compare the United States to places that no one wants to live. On top of that, you are not being honest for the reasons why some families have generational poverty.
Jan 26, 2015 3:48pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jan 26, 2015 9:00 PM
Al Bundy;1700060 wrote:If you had any clue how logic works, you would know that it only takes one counterexample to prove your absolute statements to be false.

As far as your other studies, you are trying to compare the United States to places that no one wants to live. On top of that, you are not being honest for the reasons why some families have generational poverty.
Your examples in no way refute the fact, that for the bulk of Americans, there is less opportunity than there has been and there is less opportunity than in other advanced nations. "countries where no one wants to live." really The US is being compared to Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, Norway, Germany in these studies. Well there are different reasons for generational poverty, physical and mental handicap, location, family tragedies.
Jan 26, 2015 4:00pm
Spock's avatar

Spock

Senior Member

2,853 posts
Jan 26, 2015 9:34 PM
isadore;1700057 wrote:gosh a ruddies, counter examples, really. What the bulk of studies show 1. America less social mobility than most other advanced nations. 2. Social mobility is declining in America and our society is becoming more stratified. 3. That the nations with greater social mobility invest a larger part of their government spending in social welfare programs.
you do realize that the taxpayers handouts in food stamps, disability benefits and housing subsidies are what is causing your examples to be amplified? But of course with your blinders on you wouldn't realize that.
Jan 26, 2015 4:34pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Jan 26, 2015 9:41 PM
isadore;1700063 wrote:Your examples in no way refute the fact, that for the bulk of Americans, there is less opportunity than there has been and there is less opportunity than in other advanced nations. "countries where no one wants to live." really The US is being compared to Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, Norway, Germany in these studies. Well there are different reasons for generational poverty, physical and mental handicap, location, family tragedies.
In summary, people are poor because of their own poor choices. Good.
Jan 26, 2015 4:41pm
CenterBHSFan's avatar

CenterBHSFan

333 - I'm only half evil

6,115 posts
Jan 26, 2015 9:43 PM
isadore;1700057 wrote:gosh a ruddies, counter examples, really. What the bulk of studies show 1. America less social mobility than most other advanced nations. 2. Social mobility is declining in America and our society is becoming more stratified. 3. That the nations with greater social mobility invest a larger part of their government spending in social welfare programs.

The lower strata of our society is right now getting more free stuff than they ever have in the history of our nation. Yet you are saying that their mobility is stagnant.

Why is that? What causes that?
Jan 26, 2015 4:43pm
Q

QuakerOats

Senior Member

8,740 posts
Jan 26, 2015 10:08 PM
sleeper;1700076 wrote:In summary, people are poor because of their own poor choices. Good.

And they tend to remain poor when government gets BIG, intrusive, and overreaching.
Jan 26, 2015 5:08pm
A

Al Bundy

Senior Member

4,180 posts
Jan 26, 2015 10:08 PM
isadore;1700063 wrote:Your examples in no way refute the fact, that for the bulk of Americans, there is less opportunity than there has been and there is less opportunity than in other advanced nations. "countries where no one wants to live." really The US is being compared to Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, Norway, Germany in these studies. Well there are different reasons for generational poverty, physical and mental handicap, location, family tragedies.
How many Americans do you think have any desire to live in Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, Norway, or Germany? If they do, we should make better use of our tax money and buy them a one-way ticket there. I'm not quite sure how it works, but they will become smarter and develop a work ethic once they arrive there.
Jan 26, 2015 5:08pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jan 26, 2015 10:25 PM
Al Bundy;1700083 wrote:How many Americans do you think have any desire to live in Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, Norway, or Germany? If they do, we should make better use of our tax money and buy them a one-way ticket there. I'm not quite sure how it works, but they will become smarter and develop a work ethic once they arrive there.
That is a completely idiotic argument. Most poor Americans would prefer to stay in their own country. As most people would prefer to remain in their homeland unless circumstance are most dire. Most Mexicans prefer to stay in Mexico. If you cut benefits as you wish, you might get some immigration out of the country. During the Depression more people left the country than came in. Most Americans would stay here because of family and culture. The nations I listed though have life styles comparable or better than ours. At least better for a larger portion of their population. Before you go shipping all these folks out, try to remember that is where most of our military comes from. Especially the 4th quintile.
Jan 26, 2015 5:25pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jan 26, 2015 10:30 PM
CenterBHSFan;1700078 wrote:The lower strata of our society is right now getting more free stuff than they ever have in the history of our nation. Yet you are saying that their mobility is stagnant.

Why is that? What causes that?
While food stamps are going to more folks because of the effects of the Bush Great Recession, overall welfare benefits for recipients are not increasing. The long term policies of our government for over 30 years have favored corporations and the rich, not those in the lower quintiles. These policies have helped to produce social stratification
Jan 26, 2015 5:30pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Jan 26, 2015 10:42 PM
isadore;1700089 wrote:The nations I listed though have life styles comparable or better than ours.
And better social "mobility". So what's stopping you from going there? Too lazy to make the trip? Too lazy to learn a foreign language?
Jan 26, 2015 5:42pm
Dr Winston O'Boogie's avatar

Dr Winston O'Boogie

Senior Member

1,799 posts
Jan 26, 2015 10:50 PM
THis program would cost less than 1% of the department of defense annual budget. That gravy train is the biggest redistribution of wealth in history. But the usual misdirection applies - don't be a non patriot by being critical of the bloated defense budget. Shit all over some program that attempts to help those in need get a couple of addiition years of training so that htey can be meaningful contributers and not welfare receipients.
Jan 26, 2015 5:50pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jan 26, 2015 10:50 PM
gut;1700097 wrote:And better social "mobility". So what's stopping you from going there? Too lazy to make the trip? Too lazy to learn a foreign language?
gosh a ruddies, I have to stay so I can work for Elizabeth Warren for President.
Jan 26, 2015 5:50pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Jan 26, 2015 10:51 PM
isadore;1700100 wrote:gosh a ruddies, I have to stay so I can work for Elizabeth Warren for President.
That's right, keep voting Dem....are you better of now under Obama than you were under Bush? Rich people definitely are.
Jan 26, 2015 5:51pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jan 26, 2015 10:58 PM
gut;1700101 wrote:That's right, keep voting Dem....are you better of now under Obama than you were under Bush? Rich people definitely are.
gosh a ruddies
I sure hope I never have to live through another economic downturn than the Bush Recession
Jan 26, 2015 5:58pm
A

Al Bundy

Senior Member

4,180 posts
Jan 27, 2015 2:21 AM
isadore;1700103 wrote:gosh a ruddies
I sure hope I never have to live through another economic downturn than the Bush Recession
During the next recession you should just move to Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, Norway, or Germany. They are magical places. You will suddenly become smart and hard working. Everyone can have free chocolate, beer, brats, skiis, and a windmill.
Jan 26, 2015 9:21pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jan 27, 2015 2:37 AM
Al Bundy;1700141 wrote:During the next recession you should just move to Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, Norway, or Germany. They are magical places. You will suddenly become smart and hard working. Everyone can have free chocolate, beer, brats, skiis, and a windmill.
gosh a ruddies through the efforts of all the decent Americans we will be able to bring those nations provide for their citizens to America.
Jan 26, 2015 9:37pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Jan 27, 2015 4:17 AM
Al Bundy;1700083 wrote:How many Americans do you think have any desire to live in Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, Norway, or Germany? If they do, we should make better use of our tax money and buy them a one-way ticket there. I'm not quite sure how it works, but they will become smarter and develop a work ethic once they arrive there.
This is actually a highly efficient use of our tax dollars? How many 1 way tickets can we buy for $60​B?
Jan 26, 2015 11:17pm
OSH's avatar

OSH

Kosh B'Gosh

4,145 posts
Jan 27, 2015 4:53 AM
Al Bundy;1700083 wrote:How many Americans do you think have any desire to live in Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, Norway, or Germany? If they do, we should make better use of our tax money and buy them a one-way ticket there. I'm not quite sure how it works, but they will become smarter and develop a work ethic once they arrive there.
Well, if we continue in the direction we have been headed for numerous years now under the current POTUS...those countries probably are better off! ;)

I've been to Sweden, it was nice. I wouldn't mind going to the other countries listed. If nothing else, it gets me away from morons like Mr. Gosh.
Jan 26, 2015 11:53pm
Cleveland Buck's avatar

Cleveland Buck

Troll Hunter

5,126 posts
Jan 27, 2015 5:25 AM
CenterBHSFan;1700078 wrote:The lower strata of our society is right now getting more free stuff than they ever have in the history of our nation. Yet you are saying that their mobility is stagnant.

Why is that? What causes that?
Poverty steadily declined throughout the history of this country from it's founding until Lyndon Johnson started his war on poverty and the dollar was set free from it's gold chains. Since then it has remained steady. Less economic freedom and currency debasement has historically been the way to inflict the most suffering on the poor, so let's double down on that and see how they like it.
Jan 27, 2015 12:25am
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FatHobbit

Senior Member

8,651 posts
Jan 27, 2015 6:27 AM
Cleveland Buck;1700193 wrote:Poverty steadily declined throughout the history of this country from it's founding until Lyndon Johnson started his war on poverty and the dollar was set free from it's gold chains. Since then it has remained steady. Less economic freedom and currency debasement has historically been the way to inflict the most suffering on the poor, so let's double down on that and see how they like it.
Link?
Jan 27, 2015 1:27am
Cleveland Buck's avatar

Cleveland Buck

Troll Hunter

5,126 posts
Jan 27, 2015 2:37 PM
FatHobbit;1700196 wrote:Link?



It doesn't go back to 1776, but apparently those numbers aren't available. It doesn't take a leap of faith to know that right before this chart was the Great Depression and World War II, so the rate was still higher. It still shows the trend.
Jan 27, 2015 9:37am
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jan 27, 2015 7:58 PM

http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v70n3/v70n3p1.html



The New Deal introduction of the social safety net has played the major role in the reduction of poverty
Jan 27, 2015 2:58pm
FatHobbit's avatar

FatHobbit

Senior Member

8,651 posts
Jan 27, 2015 8:12 PM
Cleveland Buck;1700253 wrote:

It doesn't go back to 1776, but apparently those numbers aren't available. It doesn't take a leap of faith to know that right before this chart was the Great Depression and World War II, so the rate was still higher. It still shows the trend.
Thanks for the link. I know wwii brought us out of the depression. I'd be curious to know what the poverty level was like before the depression.
Jan 27, 2015 3:12pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Jan 27, 2015 8:19 PM
What if we give everyone a free 4 years of tuition, room & board and then never give them another handout? That solves the poverty problem, right?
Jan 27, 2015 3:19pm
Cleveland Buck's avatar

Cleveland Buck

Troll Hunter

5,126 posts
Jan 27, 2015 8:34 PM
isadore;1700395 wrote:
http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v70n3/v70n3p1.html



The New Deal introduction of the social safety net has played the major role in the reduction of poverty
This chart is poverty among the elderly only. Though it's interesting that poverty among the elderly really hasn't improved in around 40 years either.
Jan 27, 2015 3:34pm