Fab4Runner;1638583 wrote:Nicknames, underwear practices, etc. would not bother me. But having to imitate a sexual act on my brother's lap...#nope. Would not be a huge fan of that.

I thought I'd get the full story before commenting seriously.

IMO this is bullshit and is symptomatic of what we have become as a society. Apparently, this stuff (much like old style fraternity/sorority hazing) has been going on for years...even when the Waters was a member of the band himself. Rather than a 2 month study, why not just say "Hey, we can't allow this anymore, so make sure it is stopped." Instead we have to pay people money to write reports, investigate, prosecute and fire people for what had previously got a free pass.

I tend to lean towards this...

HitsRus;1638801 wrote:Rather than a 2 month study, why not just say "Hey, we can't allow this anymore, so make sure it is stopped." Instead we have to pay people money to write reports, investigate, prosecute and fire people for what had previously got a free pass.

... but it also sounds like they tried to do that, but Waters wasn't having any of it.

My thoughts are...

OSU just can't catch a break. Can we PLEASE just stay out of trouble for THREE YEARS IN A ROW! I mean, CMON! How hard is it?!?!


I do feel sorry for the Band Director. An argument could be made that during his short time he was THE BEST GAMEDAY Band Director in the HISTORY of Band history. His formations/performances/whatever you want to call them were unrivaled. However, I do believe the right decision was made... he had to go.


As 'silly' and 'trivial' as this was... you simply can't be the authority figure, know that this is going on, and NOT do anything about it. Yeah it sounds like these "traditions" were entrenched in the history of TBDBITL - and he even probably partook in them during his times as a student-band-member himself, so I'm sure he felt emotionally tied/invested in 'em - but in today's society... you have to wake up and smell the coffee & put a kabosh on stuff like this. There's a line, and this foolery went pretty far past that line.


I hope the students will receive the counseling they need... I hope the school will be able to find 'the next best Band Director in the country' (I'm sure they will with their rich band history)... and football season just can't get here fast enough, so that all this stupid stuff can be brushed to the side.

Scarlet_Buckeye;1638826 wrote:I hope the students will receive the counseling they need...

Give me a break. This is exactly what the hell is wrong with our society. No one can take a friggin thing anymore. If the band was offensive to someone, THEN QUIT. This BS about needing counseling? Guys who've fought in Afghanistan and Iraq warrant counseling, not a fat ass flute player who was the victim of college hijinks. Clearly we are becoming a nation of total wimps if we can't figure this stuff out. Again, if you are so offended by the whole thing, then TAKE YOURSELF OUT OF THE SITUATION. Is that fair? No it is not - LIFE ISN'T FAIR SO QUIT TRYING TO MAKE IT SO!!! Jesus Christ, what a bunch of total wimps and how absolutely pathetic of the university to turn it into Watergate II.

If this is what we have in store at Ohio State - another president who uses the ***** gauge to make decisions, the place is lost.

Wisconsin had something similar happen a few years ago. What is it with band people?

This was caused by a parent complaining. What a loser. Your kid is an adult, stay out of their lives. The director being fired is stupid.

I don't think it is "band people" as much as close knit groups of young adults in college....fraternities, sororities etc. These group develop 'traditions'... rituals...rites of passage....initiations. Thinking back to my fraternity days, what we did for initiation was considered pretty mild compared to other frats, but by today's standards they would be labelled as awful, sexist, degrading etc.... I just cannot imagine anybody getting fired or prosecuted over it. I realize this is 2014 not 1975, but really, do we have to take it to the nth degree?

Dr Winston O'Boogie;1638843 wrote:Give me a break. This is exactly what the hell is wrong with our society. No one can take a friggin thing anymore. If the band was offensive to someone, THEN QUIT. This BS about needing counseling? Guys who've fought in Afghanistan and Iraq warrant counseling, not a fat ass flute player who was the victim of college hijinks. Clearly we are becoming a nation of total wimps if we can't figure this stuff out. Again, if you are so offended by the whole thing, then TAKE YOURSELF OUT OF THE SITUATION. Is that fair? No it is not - LIFE ISN'T FAIR SO QUIT TRYING TO MAKE IT SO!!! Jesus Christ, what a bunch of total wimps and how absolutely pathetic of the university to turn it into Watergate II.

If this is what we have in store at Ohio State - another president who uses the ***** gauge to make decisions, the place is lost.

Dr. Boogie. Take a chill pill. By "I hope the students will receive the counseling they need" I was referring to the ones who were affected/offended by this "sexualized" environment. Yes... there were plenty of students that probably didn't mind or have any problem with it, but clearly there was at least a handful of students were were emotionally disturbed (and in some cases, probably rightly so), by some of the findings in this internal report.

So... again... chill out. I wasn't saying that every single OSU student or even every single OSU band member needs counseling. Like anything, your first concern should always be towards the victim, and clearly there were A COUPLE victims here. Those are the students I hope receive the counseling they obviously need, because obviously they were emotionally affected by all of this.

HitsRus;1638864 wrote:I don't think it is "band people" as much as close knit groups of young adults in college....fraternities, sororities etc. These group develop 'traditions'... rituals...rites of passage....initiations. Thinking back to my fraternity days, what we did for initiation was considered pretty mild compared to other frats, but by today's standards they would be labelled as awful, sexist, degrading etc.... I just cannot imagine anybody getting fired or prosecuted over it. I realize this is 2014 not 1975, but really, do we have to take it to the nth degree?

Groups can have 'traditions'... rituals... rites of passage... but those traditions, rituals, & rites of passages don't need to be groping/sexual assult, personal attacks, and alcohol abuse.

Read the report before try to insinuate 'it's just tradition'.

Scarlet_Buckeye;1638976 wrote:Dr. Boogie. Take a chill pill. By "I hope the students will receive the counseling they need" I was referring to the ones who were affected/offended by this "sexualized" environment. Yes... there were plenty of students that probably didn't mind or have any problem with it, but clearly there was at least a handful of students were were emotionally disturbed (and in some cases, probably rightly so), by some of the findings in this internal report.

So... again... chill out. I wasn't saying that every single OSU student or even every single OSU band member needs counseling. Like anything, your first concern should always be towards the victim, and clearly there were A COUPLE victims here. Those are the students I hope receive the counseling they obviously need, because obviously they were emotionally affected by all of this.

I agree with Dr.Boogie! Soft society the minority rule we can't hurt anybody's feelings. Counseling needs to be to people like you that think you can make everybody happy and never upset anyone. Yes I think this should be stopped but also don't think anyone was scared for life or anything. You can find worse in any frat house in any college. Grow a pair!

Scarlet_Buckeye;1638976 wrote:Dr. Boogie. Take a chill pill. By "I hope the students will receive the counseling they need" I was referring to the ones who were affected/offended by this "sexualized" environment. Yes... there were plenty of students that probably didn't mind or have any problem with it, but clearly there was at least a handful of students were were emotionally disturbed (and in some cases, probably rightly so), by some of the findings in this internal report.

So... again... chill out. I wasn't saying that every single OSU student or even every single OSU band member needs counseling. Like anything, your first concern should always be towards the victim, and clearly there were A COUPLE victims here. Those are the students I hope receive the counseling they obviously need, because obviously they were emotionally affected by all of this.

The whole thing is a politically correct BS project. Unfortunately, I think it is what we get to look forward to in this new administration. If you're a president and your band leader is letting this go on and you want it stopped, you go tell him, "Cut this crap out right now". Chances are, that'll be all of it. Instead, we have to fire someone, hold a press conference, act like murder has been committed and then proceed to waste everyone's time and money by bringing in accounting firms to evaluate what really happened so they can produce a slick report. Those are the actions of the weak and afraid. Gordon Gee was weak and afraid and now this guys seems worse. What a a complete and total joke. Anyone who was offended and didn't remove themselves from the situation voluntarily is stupid and thin skinned. Those individuals will grow to become the "mommies and daddies" of the world that see injustice everywhere and determine that acquiessance is the one and only way to handle problems.

Dr Winston O'Boogie;1638991 wrote:The whole thing is a politically correct BS project. Unfortunately, I think it is what we get to look forward to in this new administration. If you're a president and your band leader is letting this go on and you want it stopped, you go tell him, "Cut this crap out right now". Chances are, that'll be all of it. Instead, we have to fire someone, hold a press conference, act like murder has been committed and then proceed to waste everyone's time and money by bringing in accounting firms to evaluate what really happened so they can produce a slick report. Those are the actions of the weak and afraid. Gordon Gee was weak and afraid and now this guys seems worse. What a a complete and total joke. Anyone who was offended and didn't remove themselves from the situation voluntarily is stupid and thin skinned. Those individuals will grow to become the "mommies and daddies" of the world that see injustice everywhere and determine that acquiessance is the one and only way to handle problems.

Amen!

Dr Winston O'Boogie;1638991 wrote:The whole thing is a politically correct BS project. Unfortunately, I think it is what we get to look forward to in this new administration. If you're a president and your band leader is letting this go on and you want it stopped, you go tell him, "Cut this crap out right now". Chances are, that'll be all of it. Instead, we have to fire someone, hold a press conference, act like murder has been committed and then proceed to waste everyone's time and money by bringing in accounting firms to evaluate what really happened so they can produce a slick report. Those are the actions of the weak and afraid. Gordon Gee was weak and afraid and now this guys seems worse. What a a complete and total joke. Anyone who was offended and didn't remove themselves from the situation voluntarily is stupid and thin skinned. Those individuals will grow to become the "mommies and daddies" of the world that see injustice everywhere and determine that acquiessance is the one and only way to handle problems.

Nothing to deny about that post.

Dr Winston O'Boogie;1638991 wrote:The whole thing is a politically correct BS project. Unfortunately, I think it is what we get to look forward to in this new administration. If you're a president and your band leader is letting this go on and you want it stopped, you go tell him, "Cut this crap out right now". Chances are, that'll be all of it. Instead, we have to fire someone, hold a press conference, act like murder has been committed and then proceed to waste everyone's time and money by bringing in accounting firms to evaluate what really happened so they can produce a slick report. Those are the actions of the weak and afraid. Gordon Gee was weak and afraid and now this guys seems worse. What a a complete and total joke. Anyone who was offended and didn't remove themselves from the situation voluntarily is stupid and thin skinned. Those individuals will grow to become the "mommies and daddies" of the world that see injustice everywhere and determine that acquiessance is the one and only way to handle problems.

I don't know if the president did, but the report did acknowledge that attempts were made/expressed to Waters to stop certain behaviors, and no action resulted. So...

Scarlet_Buckeye;1638825 wrote: ... but it also sounds like they tried to do that, but Waters wasn't having any of it.

If this is true, it's the only reason this should be a story.

Scarlet_Buckeye;1639011 wrote:I don't know if the president did, but the report did acknowledge that attempts were made/expressed to Waters to stop certain behaviors, and no action resulted. So...

That may be. My original point though is that these kinds of things are not national security scandals. They're stupid college hijinks. I remember this kind of stuff. And it gets out of hand sometimes. So when that happens, you don't take part. If that means the band's not available to you, then so be it. There are ways to handle this kind of stuff without making it a Defcom 5 type incident. We are a nation of wimps. That's one reason fatness prevails.

ts1227;1639015 wrote:If this is true, it's the only reason this should be a story.

"Notably, Waters learned of this investigation on May 26, 2014, when he was told that it involved allegations about the Band's culture." - Page 5

"These witnesses also stated that they had seen or heard of students being groped during the march." - Page 8

"One witness stated that Waters texted dirty limericks to students." - Page 11

"One witness stated that she complained to Waters about having to change clothes on the bus and he ignored her. " - Page 11

"One witness described the Band’s long-term culture as “sexualized.” The witness stated that during his first year in the Marching Band (circa 2007), an upperclassman shared a story about his new girlfriend, a cheerleader, who was very sexually conservative. According to the witness, the upperclassman played “just the tip,” which involved the upperclassman telling his girlfriend that he would only insert the tip of his penis into her vagina. The upperclassman told the witness that instead of doing that, he fully penetrated his girlfriend. The witness believed that this “sounded like rape.” After relating this story, the witness stated that the culture had not changed during his tenure (2007 – 2011) and “absolutely needs to be fixed.”"

" the interviews highlighted multiple situations in which students did not welcome this misconduct. " - Page 15

"Waters knew or reasonably should have known about sexual harassment that created a hostile environment. " - Page 17

"As detailed in Section III above, Waters was aware of extensive sexual harassment.8
In particular:
 Waters knew about Midnight Ramp, and observed and monitored it as staff. Almost every
witness stated that he was present and witnessed the annual Midnight Ramp tradition.
 Waters admitted that fifty percent of rookie nicknames are considered offensive or sexual in
nature. Moreover, Waters provided a copy of the TBDBITL Alumni Directory, which was
updated in June 2014 and lists sexually explicit nicknames, including some given to new
members in 2013. Waters also stated that he knows that “tricks” exist in connection with
nicknames.
 Witnesses stated that Waters would receive copies of Trip Tics on bus trips. According to
one witness, the X row members would typically give a copy to Waters.
 One witness stated that she complained to Waters about changing on the bus in front of
members of the opposite sex and he ignored her. " Page - 15



"Given the nature and volume of the information available to Waters, he had knowledge of sexual harassment that created a hostile environment. " - Page 19

"During his second interview on July 1, Waters said he would provide a list of efforts he has made to address the Band’s culture. We subsequently emailed him on July 3 to remind him that such a list would be helpful in this investigation. On July 11, Waters stated that his computer malfunctioned and the list that he was preparing was lost. On July 14, Waters provided a document describing his thoughts about the Band’s culture and his efforts to improve it; the document does not change the analysis in this report. Witnesses did not, however, report any significant change, or effort to change. In fact, only one witness stated that there had been transition in the culture of any kind. Another witness stated that speaking with Band directors about the culture was futile. " - Page 19

"CONCLUSION AND RECOMMENDATIONS FOR CORRECTIVE ACTION
For the reasons described above, we make the following findings:
1) The Marching Band’s culture facilitated acts of sexual harassment, creating a hostile
environment for students.
2) Jonathan Waters knew or reasonably should have known about this culture but failed to
eliminate the sexual harassment, prevent its recurrence, and address its effects. " - Page 21



You just can't have this type of stuff / allow it.

New leaked recording...

http://thelantern.com/2014/07/audio-former-ohio-state-band-director-jonathan-waters-yells-curses-at-student/

Sounds like there's only 3 people in that room... a drum band member, an assistant director, and Waters. Won't be hard for Waters to figure out who that drum member was/is.

Someone with an agenda.

Dr Winston O'Boogie;1638991 wrote:The whole thing is a politically correct BS project. Unfortunately, I think it is what we get to look forward to in this new administration. If you're a president and your band leader is letting this go on and you want it stopped, you go tell him, "Cut this crap out right now". Chances are, that'll be all of it. Instead, we have to fire someone, hold a press conference, act like murder has been committed and then proceed to waste everyone's time and money by bringing in accounting firms to evaluate what really happened so they can produce a slick report. Those are the actions of the weak and afraid. Gordon Gee was weak and afraid and now this guys seems worse. What a a complete and total joke. Anyone who was offended and didn't remove themselves from the situation voluntarily is stupid and thin skinned. Those individuals will grow to become the "mommies and daddies" of the world that see injustice everywhere and determine that acquiessance is the one and only way to handle problems.

Hate to agree with you because your a grumpy old man but this is spot on.

Scarlet_Buckeye;1639032 wrote:New leaked recording...

http://thelantern.com/2014/07/audio-former-ohio-state-band-director-jonathan-waters-yells-curses-at-student/

Sounds like there's only 3 people in that room... a drum band member, an assistant director, and Waters. Won't be hard for Waters to figure out who that drum member was/is.

Someone with an agenda.

That sure didn't seem like any big deal.

Not only did the band director get fired but now the band can't go on with their "50 shades of Scarlet and Gray" halftime show.

I talked to a friend today who is semi involved with OSU and the band. He said that Waters was given steps to save his job and those steps included sexual harassment training. He didn't go to the sexual harassment training and that sealed his fate.

The band has been a collection of dweebs , douche bags and misfits since the first script Ohio appeared, but even these dickweeds should be allowed to enjoy the hi jinks and shenanigans all college kids participate in without some over protective helicopter Mom going apeshit over her pimply faced fat ass tuba playing son being called "Tube Steak". And I kinda liked the "hanging 69" tradition...that would actually take some athletic agility to pull off, something you wouldn't expect many of these wuss bags to have. Go Waters! Sue the shit out of Drake and the UniversitY.

Scarlet_Buckeye;1638976 wrote:Those are the students I hope receive the counseling they obviously need, because obviously they were emotionally affected by all of this.

Then the solution would be for these "emotionally affected" students to quit...simple enough. The level of Nanny Statism effecting American society these days is the real problem here, not emotionally traumatized adult-aged college students.

You tell Boogie to chill. The PC crowd needs to chill.

We've become a society of whiny children with entitlement mentalities.