Manhattan Buckeye;1620556 wrote:"I agree with both of these.:

That's because this is no black and white issue. It is a ton of shades of grey (no pun intended). Out of the 7 classes of HS I attended one person matriculated into Ohio State, and transferred after a semester. Because in the 80's and early to mid 90's Ohio State was toxic. Open admissions, racial problems, crappy dorms, 400+ classes, etc.. There was a brain drain out of Ohio, and for those that didn't leave they people went to Miami or OU-Athens. Scholarships were non-existent. Ohio State would have been the most expensive school I could have attended...because there were no scholarships.

Now that there are actual standards to be admitted to the Columbus campus Ohio State has improved tremendously. If I was a high school student now I would consider it seriously and many of my alma mater's class will be attending there, in my day though Ohio State wasn't even an option. It was a cesspool so deep our guidance counselor told us not to go to OSU.

And sadly there are still some who think OSU is like it was in the 80's(mostly delusional boomers). I wouldn't send my children anywhere other than OSU and you can take that to the bank.

gut;1620535 wrote:Yeah, I don't understand it. The goal should be to attend a top-50 program in your targeted field of study, which is going to be mainly large state schools and the Ivy+ schools. And for an undergrad degree I don't really think the Ivy+ are really worth the money relative to top state schools.

The other funny thing about Ivy undergrads - it's mainly the only route to banking and management consulting jobs out of undergrad. But then those kids go to MBA programs, and if they choose to return to IB or MC they're at the same level and pay as any of their cohorts from a variety of pre-MBA backgrounds.

I would never go the Ivy's. My guidance counselor in high school said she may be able to help get me into an Ivy and I flat out told her no. I only wanted to go to OSU and since OSU offered me a substantial scholarship anyway it was a no brainer.

dlazz;1620567 wrote:I'd say I come from an "average income family" and I received absolutely nothing from FAFSA.

You don't "receive something from FAFSA", other than a number that indicates your expected family contribution. If it's say $8,000, that should be your "out the door" price for state schools and some private schools.

Classyposter58;1620587 wrote:That's fine I'll accept being dumb and making over a grand a week in my early 20s lol. Poor me

That's all well and good, the question is does it lead to career opportunities? There are $50K jobs out of school that can lead to $70K in 20 years, and $30K jobs that can lead to $300K in 20 years. Which is the better job?

queencitybuckeye;1620595 wrote:You don't "receive something from FAFSA", other than a number that indicates your expected family contribution. If it's say $8,000, that should be your "out the door" price for state schools and some private schools.

FAFSA is a broken joke.

Pick6;1620602 wrote:FAFSA is a broken joke.

Thank you for your usual level of insight. It added a lot to the discussion.

Ohio State is much better...that much is true. The Ivies and others (Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Vandy, Georgetown, Amherst, Williams....blah blah blah) have the alumni network and scholarship opportunities to make the investment worth it.

But there is a student loan bubble, so much more obvious than the housing bubble and it is going to burst. Don't wan't to take this to the political thread but it seems as if nobody wants to address it.

queencitybuckeye;1620595 wrote:You don't "receive something from FAFSA", other than a number that indicates your expected family contribution. If it's say $8,000, that should be your "out the door" price for state schools and some private schools.

No, FAFSA kicks open the door to the Pell grant, most institutional financial aid, federal loans, state assistance and so forth.

The Pell grant alone is up to $5615, so that is something.

Manhattan Buckeye;1620610 wrote:Ohio State is much better...that much is true. The Ivies and others (Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Vandy, Georgetown, Amherst, Williams....blah blah blah) have the alumni network and scholarship opportunities to make the investment worth it.

But there is a student loan bubble, so much more obvious than the housing bubble and it is going to burst. Don't wan't to take this to the political thread but it seems as if nobody wants to address it.

I see what you did there.

Manhattan Buckeye;1620610 wrote: But there is a student loan bubble, so much more obvious than the housing bubble and it is going to burst. Don't wan't to take this to the political thread but it seems as if nobody wants to address it.

Plenty of state schools have large, quality alumni networks as well. I don't think the Ivy+ are worth it for undergrad - wouldn't have said that 20 years ago but for many professions the graduate school is what differentiates now (an even then becoming increasingly commoditized)

If you go to a top grad program, where you went to undergrad isn't really going to matter. If you went to Harvard ug, and then for some reason got a grad degree from a 3rd tier school I'd think WTF?!?

gut;1620616 wrote:Plenty of state schools have large, quality alumni networks as well. I don't think the Ivy+ are worth it for undergrad - wouldn't have said that 20 years ago but for many professions the graduate school is what differentiates now (an even then becoming increasingly commoditized)

If you go to a top grad program, where you went to undergrad isn't really going to matter. If you went to Harvard ug, and then for some reason got a grad degree from a 3rd tier school I'd think WTF?!?

I don't have the stats in front of me but from the very small sample size I've encountered in my life, its very rare for an Ivy league undergrad to pursue a grad degree at a 3rd tier school. Most of my friends that did the Ivy route are going back to an Ivy or another top 20 school.

sleeper;1620631 wrote: or another top 20 school.

Like Case? *LOL*

dlazz;1620632 wrote:Like Case? *LOL*

Top 26.

dlazz;1620589 wrote:You do know sales jobs are high failure/high turnover, right? Not to mention usually (nearly) 100% commission?

Haha this isn't like that at all trust me. More of a corporate setting, salaried at over $50k and it's booking events and groups at a hotel

sleeper;1620612 wrote:I see what you did there.

Yeah, great academics and hot (heterosexual) women.

Go to an Ivy league school and you are likely seeing hair in the wrong places (Brown, I'm looking at you!). Vandy girls are amazing. Beautiful women and smart.

Classyposter58;1620587 wrote:That's fine I'll accept being dumb and making over a grand a week in my early 20s lol. Poor me

lol keep being delusional little guy. Just a rule of thumb. If it's too good to be true, then it most likely is for an entry level job. ESPECIALLY somebody who goes to BG with an education degree LOL. No real "sales" job in the low cost of living Midwest is going to offer a 50k base commission.

Classyposter58;1620634 wrote:Haha this isn't like that at all trust me. More of a corporate setting, salaried at over $50k and it's booking events and groups at a hotel

I work for a bank. I know the job you are referring to, in it's exact form.

It's not 50k a year in Chicago. So it's not 50k in fucking Detroit.

So you're either lying or the person who hired you is slipping a gullible person some exaggerations.

It can happen. A girl I know was "selling" financial services right out of college, banking. She's also hot with very good verbal communication skills.

Classyposter58;1620634 wrote:Haha this isn't like that at all trust me. More of a corporate setting, salaried at over $50k and it's booking events and groups at a hotel

like_that;1620644 wrote:lol keep being delusional little guy. Just a rule of thumb. If it's too good to be true, then it most likely is for an entry level job. ESPECIALLY somebody who goes to BG with an education degree LOL. No real "sales" job in the low cost of living Midwest is going to offer a 50k base commission.

SportsAndLady;1620651 wrote:I work for a bank. I know the job you are referring to, in it's exact form.

It's not 50k a year in Chicago. So it's not 50k in fucking Detroit.

So you're either lying or the person who hired you is slipping a gullible person some exaggerations.

Classy, what sayeth you???

sleeper;1620631 wrote:I don't have the stats in front of me but from the very small sample size I've encountered in my life, its very rare for an Ivy league undergrad to pursue a grad degree at a 3rd tier school.

Of course it's rare, they'd be stupid to do it (though a few probably do Thunderbird!). But aside from not having a leg up in admissions really (other than their alma mater, which isn't the best choice to double where you did ug) there's enough Ivy League and top programs to absorb those grads.

My point was you can be in the same place, post-grad, without the huge ug debt and killing yourself as an IB/MC monkey. The hourly rate actually kinda sucks, before even factoring in COL.

gut;1620535 wrote:Yeah, I don't understand it. The goal should be to attend a top-50 program in your targeted field of study, which is going to be mainly large state schools and the Ivy+ schools. And for an undergrad degree I don't really think the Ivy+ are really worth the money relative to top state schools.

So...that mean's hardly any schools should exist and all others are crap? Why should a school have to be top-50? Who determines those rankings? What determines those rankings?

Manhattan Buckeye;1620610 wrote:Ohio State is much better...that much is true. The Ivies and others (Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Vandy, Georgetown, Amherst, Williams....blah blah blah) have the alumni network and scholarship opportunities to make the investment worth it.

But there is a student loan bubble, so much more obvious than the housing bubble and it is going to burst. Don't wan't to take this to the political thread but it seems as if nobody wants to address it.

Definitely agree on the student loan bubble.

But alumni networks exist far beyond those "elite" schools. The scholarship opportunities do too.

gut;1620616 wrote:If you go to a top grad program, where you went to undergrad isn't really going to matter. If you went to Harvard ug, and then for some reason got a grad degree from a 3rd tier school I'd think WTF?!?

Location or school of undergrad doesn't matter. It's easy to look through all the business and education studies that show that school doesn't matter -- just getting a degree matters.

OSH;1620668 wrote: Location or school of undergrad doesn't matter. It's easy to look through all the business and education studies that show that school doesn't matter -- just getting a degree matters.

Ehhhh, I wouldn't bet MY money on that. Keep in mind, when surveys look at people in late 40s/50s/60s a lot of them climbed the ladder when a college degree was all that DID matter, and could still get done without it. Now a college degree is mostly a commodity, but anyone who tells you school and location doesn't matter is either clueless or full of shit. It might be true that a smart, successful kid from UM would accomplish the same thing from a 3rd tier school...but it's the fact that 99% of those types tend to choose UM instead that makes recruiters and hiring managers notice UM on the resume.

I'm sorry, but the best firms still hire almost exclusively from top "feeder" programs, and maybe 1-2 local schools. And starting your career off at a blue-chip company is a leg up that just continues to appreciate throughout your career.

I'm not saying a non-top 50 program is a waste of money...but it's a degree that checks a box, not opens doors. Checking the box is still important, but if you have the choice go to the better program even if it means $40-$50k in debt.

OSH;1620668 wrote:Who determines those rankings? What determines those rankings?

Among other factors, SAT/ACT, placement, salary, alumni success and recruiting companies. Shit that, you know, should matter when plunking $100k down for a degree.

OSH;1620668 wrote: Who determines those rankings? What determines those rankings?

Whoever pays them the most

gut;1620676 wrote:Ehhhh, I wouldn't bet MY money on that. Keep in mind, when surveys look at people in late 40s/50s/60s a lot of them climbed the ladder when a college degree was all that DID matter, and could still get done without it. Now a college degree is mostly a commodity, but anyone who tells you school and location doesn't matter is either clueless or full of shit. It might be true that a smart, successful kid from UM would accomplish the same thing from a 3rd tier school...but it's the fact that 99% of those types tend to choose UM instead that makes recruiters and hiring managers notice UM on the resume.

I'm sorry, but the best firms still hire almost exclusively from top "feeder" programs, and maybe 1-2 local schools. And starting your career off at a blue-chip company is a leg up that just continues to appreciate throughout your career.

I'm not saying a non-top 50 program is a waste of money...but it's a degree that checks a box, not opens doors. Checking the box is still important, but if you have the choice go to the better program even if it means $40-$50k in debt.

Sure, there are unique places that hire out of certain areas. No doubt about that. There are certain organizations (few) and certain employers (few) that certainly are selective in who, what, when, and where they hire from. That has little bearing on the majority of potential employees. Actually, to throw your arbitrary number, for 99% of students...those particular schools do matter. Outside of that, get the degree or degrees and you can get a job...with some additional work/help/sweat/blood/tears.

But, outside of that, I will tell you that school and location don't matter, and I know the studies and articles that continue to prove that. If schools and locations mattered, we wouldn't have 3,500 4-year schools all producing talented students and productive employees. You have absolutely no idea on how and where the "smart, talented kids" go to school...so arbitrary numbers like 99% go "here instead of there" is completely ridiculous.

And, like some have said (and I know/agree) many of these state or "good" schools will take someone just as much in debt as any other school that may not be classified as "good." That can be private or public school, it doesn't matter.

Which recent article/study do you want? This, this, or this.

gut;1620680 wrote:Among other factors, SAT/ACT, placement, salary, alumni success and recruiting companies. Shit that, you know, should matter when plunking $100k down for a degree.

Much of that is untraceable (other than SAT/ACT) or even researched. Every school says they have 100% placement in medical school, 85% placement in graduate school, etc. etc. etc. All those ranking things are highly biased and political.

The thing is, all of higher education knows this, but students (and parents) fall for all the statistics and rankings.