Automatik;1622563 wrote:And who the fuck replies to these types of CNN polls?

The weak 59%? I don't buy into the "woe is me attitude." You want it, go and get it. Don't piss and moan through a fucking online poll.

Exactly!!! I'll keep making paper while these losers give Quacker Oats fuel for his posts.

economists estimate there are about 7 million more working-age Americans today than there were at the previous employment peak in January 2008.

Link.

Basically states the US has recovered from the "Great Recession" and the unemployment is steady at 6.3% which is a 5-year low.

OSH;1623177 wrote:Link.

Basically states the US has recovered from the "Great Recession"

Perhaps in terms of the number of jobs. When the quality of those jobs are taken into account, we're not even close.

queencitybuckeye;1623187 wrote:Perhaps in terms of the number of jobs. When the quality of those jobs are taken into account, we're not even close.

Not to mention that the fact that the population continues to grow, so while the total number of jobs has gone back to 2008 levels, the labor participation rate is not even close.

http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000

As of May 2014 the labor participation rate was STILL in decline. That is a much more telling statistic with regards to unemployment than the unemployment rate.

In a good economy the LFPR sticks around 66%, it has been declining since November 2008 and hasn't stop declining.

When that is back up to 66%, I would say yeah, we are out of the recession.

pretty good vid here from a conference i attended last week about 21st century education and the future

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmwwrGV_aiE&list=PLNf6s0ZHJ3ANFB4lF_wASuRevlKYeQJUK

Gblock;1623445 wrote:pretty good vid here from a conference i attended last week about 21st century education and the future

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmwwrGV_aiE&list=PLNf6s0ZHJ3ANFB4lF_wASuRevlKYeQJUK

There's no substitute for sheer numbers. I think it's pretty generally accepted that economic growth is directly correlated with population growth. The US has, historically, had a big advantage in being able to offset slower internal growth by attracting scores of highly capable immigrants.

I think a lot of the education debate is misguided - there is simply no way to teach rocket science to 95% of the population. I'm not saying it doesn't have to get better, but there are obvious inherent limits - most people just don't have the natural ability to become a doctor. Again, outside of technical degrees I think the idea that college education is the key to a more skilled workforce is off target. For such degrees, it is mainly a cheap and efficient way for lazy companies to filter candidates.

I've seen a few interesting pieces recently on workplace training, how that generally most companies don't invest in employee development/coaching anywhere like what they used to. Outside of technical degrees, there are very few jobs (including accounting) that a smart high school grad couldn't be on equal footing with an equally smart college grad after 2-3 months.

Used to be people would learn broad skills on-the-job and be marketable. Now, for a variety of reasons, many jobs are becoming highly specialized (or at least companies have little interest in even a modest level of training). Take that accounting grad - gets a job with a hotel and uses Cognos. He or she will now find it very difficult to go to another industry, or even another hotel using one of numerous other accounting software suites. If you want to keep yourself marketable, I think you should consider seeking promotions every 2-3 years into another industry (but same functional discipline).

It's bad. Maybe eventually we'll move toward a different model that replaces useless and un-enriching courses (guessing that constitutes as much as half my UG) with real world experience. Would students be better off spending a semester (or more) of fees to actually PAY for work experience that is valued by employers, as opposed to underwater basket weaving?

There are a lot more jobs for accountants than friggin bookeeping. I'd hope a smart high school grad could manage considering its basic level accounting. Honestly, if you graduate from college and get a job as a bookeeper, you're basically a failure.

Pick6;1623564 wrote:There are a lot more jobs for accountants than friggin bookeeping. I'd hope a smart high school grad could manage considering its basic level accounting. Honestly, if you graduate from college and get a job as a bookeeper, you're basically a failure.

Most corporate accounting jobs, good paying jobs with career progression, are "bookkeeping", or auditing books. And, um, Wall Street tends to hire non-business majors and train them finance/accounting in about 8-weeks. It's not rocket science.

None of that changes the point that if you aren't expanding your technical and industry expertise then you are limiting future career opportunities.

gut;1623565 wrote:Most corporate accounting jobs, good paying jobs with career progression, are "bookkeeping", or auditing books. And, um, Wall Street tends to hire non-business majors and train them finance/accounting in about 8-weeks. It's not rocket science.

None of that changes the point that if you aren't expanding your technical and industry expertise then you are limiting future career opportunities.

my charge rate to clients is $245 an hour and I'm bottom of the barrel. One would wonder why corporations wouldn't outsource work and pay hundreds of thousands of dollars on engagements when they could do it in house for maybe 1/10th the cost, especially when it's so simple that a high schooler could do it.

I cant even believe I'm wasting time defending this.

Pick6;1623564 wrote:There are a lot more jobs for accountants than friggin bookeeping. I'd hope a smart high school grad could manage considering its basic level accounting. Honestly, if you graduate from college and get a job as a bookeeper, you're basically a failure.

That is...unless one wants to be a bookkeeper.

OSH;1623597 wrote:That is...unless one wants to be a bookkeeper.

I dont know anybody who majored in accounting to be a bookkeeper. A bookkeeper isn't an accountant, a bookkeeper is a bean counter.

Pick6;1623616 wrote:I dont know anybody who majored in accounting to be a bookkeeper. A bookkeeper isn't an accountant, a bookkeeper is a bean counter.

That's fine. But if someone is happy being a bookkeeper, who is right to tell them that they're a failure?

OSH;1623623 wrote:That's fine. But if someone is happy being a bookkeeper, who is right to tell them that they're a failure?

Obviously if somebody is whatever they want to be than they are not a "failure". I know I said that, and it was extreme to make my point, but I don't see how you could have missed what I was really trying to say, but I'll spell it out.

Based on my experience, ~90% of accounting majors want to get jobs in public accounting. Say 9% want to get jobs in industry doing managerial accounting (not freaking journal entries). And giving you the benefit of the doubt, 1% want to go to school to become an AP clerk or become a quickbooks expert at a local small business. 90% of all students can't get jobs because employers have GPA requirements among other criteria that are used as benchmarks just to even get looked at. Therefore, those who don't get a decent job are underachievers and get stuck with shitty bookkeeping jobs that high schoolers could do, like gut said when he tried to use a small and least valuable sample to generalize a whole profession.

Pick6;1623630 wrote:Obviously if somebody is whatever they want to be than they are not a "failure". I know I said that, and it was extreme to make my point, but I don't see how you could have missed what I was really trying to say, but I'll spell it out.

Based on my experience, ~90% of accounting majors want to get jobs in public accounting. Say 9% want to get jobs in industry doing managerial accounting (not freaking journal entries). And giving you the benefit of the doubt, 1% want to go to school to become an AP clerk or become a quickbooks expert at a local small business. 90% of all students can't get jobs because employers have GPA requirements among other criteria that are used as benchmarks just to even get looked at. Therefore, those who don't get a decent job are underachievers and get stuck with shitty bookkeeping jobs that high schoolers could do, like gut said when he tried to use a small and least valuable sample to generalize a whole profession.

Which you've also stated that you are one of the most recent graduates on the OC, so your experience is pretty limited.

People can get into accounting positions and realize they don't want to do it, right? They could even realize that as they graduate college. They could realize it when they are in the actual accounting position. Heck, maybe they just do bookkeeping for any amount of time then go into accounting. Making broad sweeping generalizations isn't really the way to go, especially when there's limited experience in the "real world."

OSH;1623640 wrote:Which you've also stated that you are one of the most recent graduates on the OC, so your experience is pretty limited.

People can get into accounting positions and realize they don't want to do it, right? They could even realize that as they graduate college. They could realize it when they are in the actual accounting position. Heck, maybe they just do bookkeeping for any amount of time then go into accounting. Making broad sweeping generalizations isn't really the way to go, especially when there's limited experience in the "real world."

My statement has nothing to do with "real world" experience and everything to do with peer experience. The people I spent the past 4 1/2 years of my life going to class every day with and all other friends going to school for accounting. I am discussing what college students want, which is what this thread is about. Recent grads getting jobs. Not people who work in the profession for 3 years and decide they want out. It's very common for people to get out of public and go to industry by the way. Large public accounting is viewed as the "sexy" job to get into right out of school. Unfortunately, many students choose to attend colleges that lack campus recruiting, thus limited their chances to land that job. Not about to get in another one of these debates with you when it's just going to end up going in circles again.

Also, try to use the whole "limited" real world experience argument you want against me. But considering I'm an accountant and only 1 or 2 other people on this board are, I'd say I have more room to talk about it than just about anyone.

Pick6;1623649 wrote: Also, try to use the whole "limited" real world experience argument you want against me. But considering I'm an accountant and only 1 or 2 other people on this board are, I'd say I have more room to talk about it than just about anyone.

LMFAO....I have a little more direct, less limited "real world" experience. Maybe realize I probably know what I'm talking about more than someone a few years out of school. I mean, know what "peer experience" and a box of chocolates will buy you?

I can't wait for Sleeper to chime in with how a recent grad knows jack shit about how business actually works.

Pick6;1623575 wrote:my charge rate to clients is $245 an hour and I'm bottom of the barrel. .

lol.... Top MC's bill like $30k a week, at 60 hours that's $500/hr.

Accounting is among the most simple and non-value added work out there. They pay that rate for one reason: liability. Has very little to do with your expertise - that's why you take home a pittance of that alleged $250/hr. E&O insurance is a bitch.

But, seriously....Public accounting is great experience. Do it for 2-3 years and then go work for a real company for a few years before getting an MBA. If you want to do valuation/advisory, then great. But if not, realize that companies don't think that highly of [pre-mba] consultants as far as direct hires...they want people with hands-on functional experience, managing others in that specific industry. So if you don't want to be a partner with McGladrey, then come up with an exit plan sooner than later.

gut;1623662 wrote:LMFAO....I have a little more direct, less limited "real world" experience. Maybe realize I probably know what I'm talking about more than someone a few years out of school. I mean, know what "peer experience" and a box of chocolates will buy you?

I can't wait for Sleeper to chime in with how a recent grad knows jack shit about how business actually works.

That statement was relevant to the discussion, you know about recent college grads and what they want in my industry. Quit trying to take it out of context. What makes you an expert on the industry I work in again?

gut;1623664 wrote:lol.... Top MC's bill like $30k a week, at 60 hours that's $500/hr.

Accounting is among the most simple and non-value added work out there. They pay that rate for one reason: liability. Has very little to do with your expertise - that's why you take home a pittance of that alleged $250/hr. E&O insurance is a bitch.

Notice I said that is the bottom of the barrel rate. Another statement you're trying to cherry pick. I'm not the only one who works on engagements, so the average rate is much higher. I noticed you never answered if it is so easy, why these multi-billion dollar corporations aren't doing it internally at a much cheaper price. Compliance is maybe half of my work and consulting is the other half, but I wouldn't expect you to know that because it is apparent you are biased against my profession due to your prior statements. KPMG just acquired Rothstein Kass, and acquiring those types of firms are common in the industry. My firm acquired an Oracle consulting firm recently. But you're right, non-value added work : thumbup:

Pick6;1623649 wrote:My statement has nothing to do with "real world" experience and everything to do with peer experience. The people I spent the past 4 1/2 years of my life going to class every day with and all other friends going to school for accounting. I am discussing what college students want, which is what this thread is about. Recent grads getting jobs. Not people who work in the profession for 3 years and decide they want out. It's very common for people to get out of public and go to industry by the way. Large public accounting is viewed as the "sexy" job to get into right out of school. Unfortunately, many students choose to attend colleges that lack campus recruiting, thus limited their chances to land that job. Not about to get in another one of these debates with you when it's just going to end up going in circles again.

Also, try to use the whole "limited" real world experience argument you want against me. But considering I'm an accountant and only 1 or 2 other people on this board are, I'd say I have more room to talk about it than just about anyone.

The problem with recent grads getting jobs...is the same as any other 18-22 year old trying to get a degree -- they often have no idea what things will be in the "real world." The "sexy" job isn't so "sexy" when they get into it. So, college students and/or recent college grads often have no idea what it's like in the "real world." So, while the accounting job may be "sexy" at one time, they get out into a "bookkeeping" job, they may thoroughly enjoy it and stay there.

You are the one that said "failure" to a career/position. Work is one an individual makes it. It's also up to the individual on what they think of their career. Just because there's a wet-behind-the-ears accountant is where he wants to be doesn't mean everyone wants to be where you are.

Pick6;1623715 wrote: I noticed you never answered if it is so easy, why these multi-billion dollar corporations aren't doing it internally at a much cheaper price.

Seriously? Are you that clueless? The answer is very simple. #1 Liability. #2 temporary need.

What do you do? M&A due diligence? QE? Auditing? You're a rubber stamp, whether you are able to recognize/admit it or not.

Pick6;1623715 wrote:Compliance is maybe half of my work and consulting is the other half, but I wouldn't expect you to know that because it is apparent you are biased against my profession due to your prior statements. KPMG just acquired Rothstein Kass, and acquiring those types of firms are common in the industry. My firm acquired an Oracle consulting firm recently. But you're right, non-value added work : thumbup:

I'm not biased against "your industry", I'm just not the mediocre professional that typically requires your services. Someday you'll sober up from the company kool-aid and realize 80% of your work is driven by #1 CYA and #2 limited resources

I'll say it one more time so that it may sink in...You're marketability from what you are doing now hits a cliff after 3-4 years, tops. I'm not the one with a bias against consultants - companies and hiring managers tend to be biased against mid-level managers and above who have never actually been accountable and/or had ownership of decisions.

I know plenty who have been down your path and exited at various points. There is a large gap between associate and MD where you lack BOTH the functional and strategic expertise valued by employers. And, sorry, but accounting advisory is the bottom of the barrel as far as consulting...I might hire a KPGM guy as a Controller, which is a nice job, but the fact is accounting advisory is 3rd tier consulting.

LMAO accounting being "sexy". Never more than a means to an end.

Corporate accounting is where it's at. Haven't done Public accounting but my best friend did and it sounded like it wasn't much fun, though he built some good connections and is now training to be the CFO of a local bank.

Terry_Tate;1623990 wrote:Corporate accounting is where it's at. Haven't done Public accounting but my best friend did and it sounded like it wasn't much fun, though he built some good connections and is now training to be the CFO of a local bank.

A very good, succinct post.

The problem is accountants, even in corporate, dead-end quickly. The lines are blurry, but you don't want to be an "accounting" guy you want to be the "finance" guy. The latter can become CFO or even CEO.

Public accounting experience is great, arguably even necessary. But the point is to check the box and move on. After 3+ years it only makes sense if you want to advance in the public accounting realm. If public accounting is not for you, then after 3 years you're wasting your time.

gut;1623994 wrote:A very good, succinct post.

The problem is accountants, even in corporate, dead-end quickly. The lines are blurry, but you don't want to be an "accounting" guy you want to be the "finance" guy. The latter can become CFO or even CEO.

Public accounting experience is great, arguably even necessary. But the point is to check the box and move on. After 3+ years it only makes sense if you want to advance in the public accounting realm. If public accounting is not for you, then after 3 years you're wasting your time.

Very true about public. Do it for a few years, get your CPA, then go into corporate seems to be the trend from people I know. If you want to become a partner, which there's good money there, then stick with it, but from the few guys I know it's "pay your dues" then move on.

And plenty of CPAs go on to be CFOs and even CEOs, but like you said, they can do way more than just "bean counting."

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cachenline.wsj.com/articles/andrew-puzder-why-young-people-cant-find-work-1402355248


"The main culprits are policies that make jobs more expensive"



Excellent analysis in Tuesday's Wall St. Journal.