Run away Run away .. I don’t think so “I’m Standing My Ground”

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WebFire

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Nov 21, 2013 11:18 AM
LJ;1540352 wrote:Go ahead and make that decision yourself and you can pay the consequences when they come to you. Myself, I'm about self preservation. I'll never escalate a situation myself.
If I feel I am in danger, you're damn right I make that decision.
Nov 21, 2013 11:18am
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queencitybuckeye

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Nov 21, 2013 11:19 AM
WebFire;1540347 wrote:Wow really? So playing the stat game with your life is cool with you? It's not with me. I don't want to be on the wrong side of that stat.

And assuming an outcome is exactly a hypothetical.
You're changing the argument, which as you're losing this one badly, isn't really a surprise. It's not "your life". You get to defend your life. You do NOT get to defend the clerk's life. Were I the clerk, and you shot the robber, he'd be going to the morgue, you'd be going to the emergency room after I beat you to a puddle for getting involved in a situation I had under control.
Nov 21, 2013 11:19am
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LJ

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Nov 21, 2013 11:19 AM
WebFire;1540353 wrote:Exactly right. Which is why you don't base these decisions on hypothetical (or stats).

Fact: gunmen in store with the potential to kill.
You do base it on that.

"This guy with a gun hasn't shot anyone, he doesn't see me. What are the possible outcomes if I approach him with my weapon?". That's why you don't get involved.
Nov 21, 2013 11:19am
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LJ

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Nov 21, 2013 11:21 AM
WebFire;1540355 wrote:If I feel I am in danger, you're damn right I make that decision.
If you feel you are in danger? Or you feel that the loss of your life 100% going to happen? I'm not going to shoot someone because im in "danger". 2 guys fist fighting right next to me at a bar put me in "danger".
Nov 21, 2013 11:21am
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WebFire

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Nov 21, 2013 11:22 AM
queencitybuckeye;1540356 wrote:You're changing the argument, which as you're losing this one badly, isn't really a surprise. It's not "your life". You get to defend your life. You do NOT get to defend the clerk's life. Were I the clerk, and you shot the robber, he'd be going to the morgue, you'd be going to the emergency room after I beat you to a puddle for getting involved in a situation I had under control.
I am not losing, nor am I changing any argument. Yes, the conversation has swayed from defending the clerk to defending yourself, because we disagree with what defines defending yourself.

You prefer to wait until the barrel is pointed at your head, I do not. I am eliminated the threat, moreso than saving the clerk. The threat is just as valid to me as to the clerk.

Now, on the flip side, I agreed with your assessment if you are away from the action. I would not "approach" as you said, from the back of the store for instance.
Nov 21, 2013 11:22am
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GoChiefs

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Nov 21, 2013 11:23 AM
queencitybuckeye;1540341 wrote:Wrong word, it's not hypothetical, it's statistical. No, you don't get to shoot someone holding a gun on someone else when the odds are thousands to one that the trigger will not be pulled.
Hypothetically, someone points a gun at a 4 year old child, you just gonna stand there?
Nov 21, 2013 11:23am
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WebFire

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Nov 21, 2013 11:23 AM
LJ;1540360 wrote:If you feel you are in danger? Or you feel that the loss of your life 100% going to happen? I'm not going to shoot someone because im in "danger". 2 guys fist fighting right next to me at a bar put me in "danger".
Jesus Christ you are impossible. We aren't talking about a fist fight, now are we?
Nov 21, 2013 11:23am
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LJ

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Nov 21, 2013 11:24 AM
WebFire;1540367 wrote:Jesus Christ you are impossible. We aren't talking about a fist fight, now are we?
You keep going all "white knight" for the clerk while disregarding the impact it will have on your life and your family's life.
Nov 21, 2013 11:24am
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justincredible

Nick Mangold

32,056 posts
Nov 21, 2013 11:26 AM
LJ;1540357 wrote:You do base it on that.

"This guy with a gun hasn't shot anyone, he doesn't see me. What are the possible outcomes if I approach him with my weapon?". That's why you don't get involved.
I think the point he is trying to argue is what do you do when you're standing in line next to the guy with the gun, i.e. you're very much in sight of the bad guy.

Obviously if you're in the back of the store and no where near the "action" you duck and hang tight.
Nov 21, 2013 11:26am
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queencitybuckeye

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Nov 21, 2013 11:27 AM
GoChiefs;1540365 wrote:Hypothetically, someone points a gun at a 4 year old child, you just gonna stand there?
1. Different situation. The motives of the bad guy are clearly different.

2. The idea that the only options are to pull my own gun and shoot or to do nothing is a pretty flawed notion. Can we possibly think that depending on circumstances, there may be other options?
Nov 21, 2013 11:27am
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GoChiefs

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Nov 21, 2013 11:28 AM
queencitybuckeye;1540371 wrote:Different situation. The motives of the bad guy are clearly different.
But you aren't being directly impacted, and he hasn't fired a shot.
Nov 21, 2013 11:28am
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LJ

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Nov 21, 2013 11:29 AM
justincredible;1540369 wrote:I think the point he is trying to argue is what do you do when you're standing in line next to the guy with the gun, i.e. you're very much in sight of the bad guy.

Obviously if you're in the back of the store and no where near the "action" you duck and hang tight.

If that's the case, then the scenario was worded very poorly. 5 ft rule there. If you know all the details to an action that is not directly involving you, then being within 5ft puts you in an immediate threat.

If it's within 5ft and I don't know the whole situation, I back off unless the attention is directed towards me.
Nov 21, 2013 11:29am
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WebFire

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Nov 21, 2013 11:39 AM
LJ;1540376 wrote:If that's the case, then the scenario was worded very poorly. 5 ft rule there. If you know all the details to an action that is not directly involving you, then being within 5ft puts you in an immediate threat.

If it's within 5ft and I don't know the whole situation, I back off unless the attention is directed towards me.
Where the hell did you come up with that? LOL
Nov 21, 2013 11:39am
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WebFire

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Nov 21, 2013 11:40 AM
GoChiefs;1540372 wrote:But you aren't being directly impacted, and he hasn't fired a shot.
Bingo.
Nov 21, 2013 11:40am
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WebFire

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Nov 21, 2013 11:40 AM
LJ;1540376 wrote:If that's the case, then the scenario was worded very poorly.
No it wasn't. It's pretty much exactly the situation put forth.
Nov 21, 2013 11:40am
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WebFire

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Nov 21, 2013 11:41 AM
queencitybuckeye;1540371 wrote:1. Different situation.
It sure is. But you can't base laws off situations.
Nov 21, 2013 11:41am
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Me?

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Nov 21, 2013 11:41 AM
YAY! Let's all form arguments based on hypothetical situations and speak from what we call a factual basis as we change the parameters of the hypothetical situation in order to be able to claim someone else is losing the argument!
Nov 21, 2013 11:41am
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WebFire

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Nov 21, 2013 11:43 AM
LJ;1540368 wrote:You keep going all "white knight" for the clerk while disregarding the impact it will have on your life and your family's life.
No I don't. Pulling my gun means I made a conscience decision that I NEEDED to pull my gun. You act like a recklessly just pull a gun whenever there is conflict. This is untrue. This is exactly why this law is being discussed, because as it is today, you don't know the legal outcome. It can and has gone either direction.

People need clarity on what impact their decisions will have. It's far from a light decision.
Nov 21, 2013 11:43am
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queencitybuckeye

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Nov 21, 2013 11:44 AM
WebFire;1540397 wrote:It sure is. But you can't base laws off situations.
The laws are actually fairly clear.
Nov 21, 2013 11:44am
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LJ

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Nov 21, 2013 11:44 AM
WebFire;1540390 wrote:Where the hell did you come up with that? LOL
The TDI classes I have taken

http://tdiohio.com/
Nov 21, 2013 11:44am
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WebFire

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Nov 21, 2013 11:46 AM
LJ;1540405 wrote:The TDI classes I have taken

http://tdiohio.com/
Interesting, because gun glasses (including the CHL) put that circle at 20 feet or so. Have to look up the exact distance.
Nov 21, 2013 11:46am
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LJ

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Nov 21, 2013 11:46 AM
WebFire;1540393 wrote:No it wasn't. It's pretty much exactly the situation put forth.
No it wasn't
So I have a concealed gun, and someone comes in to the Speedway I am in and has a gun on the clerk


"Speedway I am in" could mean standing in the back at the beer case or waiting in line in for the shitter.
Nov 21, 2013 11:46am
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WebFire

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Nov 21, 2013 11:46 AM
queencitybuckeye;1540406 wrote:The laws are actually fairly clear.
But the enforcement is not. Nor is self-defense defined clearly.
Nov 21, 2013 11:46am
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Me?

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Nov 21, 2013 11:47 AM
If you're waiting in line for the shitter at a Speedway you deserve to get shot.
Nov 21, 2013 11:47am
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LJ

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Nov 21, 2013 11:47 AM
WebFire;1540408 wrote:Interesting, because gun glasses (including the CHL) put that circle at 20 feet or so. Have to look up the exact distance.
20 feet is your alert circle. You should remove yourself if anyone within 20 feet makes you uncomfortable. 5ft is an absolute and immediate threat that you must take decisive action on.
Nov 21, 2013 11:47am