dlazz;1485090 wrote:

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about with regard to this subject. This only further proves that point.

Manhattan Buckeye;1485083 wrote:What the hell is alcohol withdrawal?

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/alcohol-abuse/alcohol-withdrawal-symptoms-treatments

And please tell me you are joking.

Manhattan Buckeye;1483943 wrote:Hmm, thought of another one from an entertainment standpoint. That's a tricky subject since there are very subjective topics, but I'm in the super-minority of my generation that never understood the appeal of the show "Friends." I don't hate it, I just don't get it. It isn't funny to me, the characters don't appeal and even for a sit-com it seemed unrealistic. 95% of my college friends would disagree. I feel the same way about the Big Bang Theory. Don't get the humor at all.

For any scientific person, The Big Bang Theory is the funnies show ever on TV

jmog;1485120 wrote:For any scientific person, The Big Bang Theory is the funnies show ever on TV

Not unless reclegend says its the funniest show on TV.

reclegend22;1485100 wrote:Again, you have no idea what you are talking about with regard to this subject. This only further proves that point.

LOL'd

Rec...

Compared to alcohol, opiates are actually much safer and healthier for your body and will cause absolutely no neurotoxicity from use, which is the direct opposite of what will happen to your brain after prolonged alcohol abuse.

So you're comparing the safe administration of opiates with prolonged alcohol abuse claiming one is safe, and the other's not. Gotcha. By the way, before this goes any farther, have you ever seen opiates administered in person? The window of titration is incredibly tiny. Give too little, their intended use (pain control) is ineffective. Give too much, you risk death. That's why in the hospital setting, Fentanyl and morphine require constant if not ongoing monitoring of several life functions (RR, SpO2, HR, BP). I honestly don't even know why you're comparing the two. Alcohol, for the most part, is a social drug that can be consumed responsibly a heavy majority of the time. No one goes to the bar after work to inject themselves with morphine??

Any negative effects from opiates are typically of the indirect variety -- bad injection technique, change of lifestyle, impurities from street purchase, etc.

You forgot to mention the person who takes too much and kills themselves, which is actually a lot easier to do than with alcohol.

Opiates, when taken in their pure form without acetaminophen or ibuprofen -- such as pure codeine or morphine or hydrocodone -- also do not have any impact on your liver whatsoever, unlike alcohol which will shut it down forever and kill you after years of abusing it.

You're comparing the safe consumption of one with abusing the other. You're also citing death from withdrawal -- which is hardly common, unless you've statistics that prove otherwise. To just quit cold turkey would actually go against medical advice, anyways. Most facilities provide inpatient options for an alcoholic to be weaned off of appropriately safely. That is also the extreme category of alcoholics.

As a pretext to this long post, I first simply want to say that I agree with some of your points and, before the legalization of drugs could ever conceivably happen, a lot of thought would have to go into how to go about doing it. Obviously, even more than with alcohol, there would have to be some sort of regulation in place to stop inexperienced people from dying.

friendfromlowry wrote:By the way, before this goes any farther, have you ever seen opiates administered in person? The window of titration is incredibly tiny. Give too little, their intended use (pain control) is ineffective. Give too much, you risk death. That's why in the hospital setting, Fentanyl and morphine require constant if not ongoing monitoring of several life functions (RR, SpO2, HR, BP). I honestly don't even know why you're comparing the two. Alcohol, for the most part, is a social drug that can be consumed responsibly a heavy majority of the time. No one goes to the bar after work to inject themselves with morphine??

Injecting opiates, especially morphine or Fentanyl, is incredibly dangerous. We are in agreement there. Since I am not familiar with that form of administration and personally wouldn't want to be, all of my posts are in regard to prescription pills taken orally. Perhaps that wasn't clear. And yes, if Dilaudid were on the menu, I'd stop by TGI Fridays after work tomorrow night and have one or two in lieu of a martini.

You forgot to mention the person who takes too much and kills themselves, which is actually a lot easier to do than with alcohol.

I did actually mention this point in a separate post above, and I think it goes without saying. But I do agree that it's definitely much more difficult to die overdosing on alcohol. No argument there. On the other hand, because alcohol is severely nuerotoxic when abused or even when taken every day in amounts that would constitute more than casual intake, an alcoholic has a very high chance over the long-term of developing fatal conditions such as liver disease, brain damage relating to Korsakoff's Syndrome, heart attack, stroke, or a number of other serious problems. Opiates, conversely, are not neurotoxic and will lead to none of those conditions, even when abused for years and years (assuming, of course, that they are pure and do not contain paracetamol or NSAIDS). Hence, why I claimed that abusing opiates, aside from the overdose factor, is not as inherently dangerous as abusing alcohol.

You're comparing the safe consumption of one with abusing the other.

One doesn’t need to overdose on a painkiller in order to achieve a high that would be equivalent to, say, drinking enough alcohol to get drunk. In that sense, it is actually possible to abuse a painkiller “responsibly” (if by "responsibly," you mean "not overdosing"). For example, from my personal experience using narcotics, I know the precise amount I need to take of a given painkiller – whether it is codeine or Vicodin or Percocet – to reach Lil’ Wayne status.

You're also citing death from withdrawal -- which is hardly common, unless you've statistics that prove otherwise. To just quit cold turkey would actually go against medical advice, anyways. Most facilities provide inpatient options for an alcoholic to be weaned off of appropriately safely. That is also the extreme category of alcoholics.

But it is possible. Severe alcohol withdrawal is always life threatening, if not supervised under the care of medical professionals. Severe painkiller withdrawal is its own hell, but not in and of itself a deadly situation. While this life-threatening condition may only apply to the extreme category of alcoholics, as you say, it is still a possibility and, since many abusers of alcohol do not understand just how deadly quitting on their own can be, it makes the situation all the more serious. While I do not have any statistics, I don't think it would be a stretch of the imagination by any means to assume that there are many alcoholics without the money or the resources or time to go to rehab, who, if they ever decide to quit, would probably try to do it on their own, not knowing -- like ManhattanBuckeye -- that alcohol withdrawal is a real medical thing.

As this thread is evidence of, a lot of people have no idea that abrupt cessation or significant reduction of alcohol after a period of heavy drinking can be deadly. This potentially life-threatening condition of alcohol withdrawal can happen after a matter of years, months or merely weeks of heavy, prolonged drinking. While this type of condition might only occur in cases of extreme drinking, it never happens to somebody who abruptly decides to clean up their act and stop abusing opiates. The withdrawal will be horrible, sure, but quitting Vicodin or even heroin cold turkey will not end your life. That’s the point I was trying to make.

Do you guys know swimmers pee in the pool during practice?

Did one single solitary person read that? Unreal
...just unreal SMFH.

Tiernan;1485500 wrote:Did one single solitary person read that? Unreal
...just unreal SMFH.

While it's unlikely that anybody read it, it was written solely for friendfromlowry, who I felt I should respond to since he took the time to respond to me. He's free to read it or not, it doesn't really matter to me. Personally, I do not like really long posts, but sometimes it's easy to get caught up when typing.

Tiernan;1485038 wrote:What the hell does "optimal" Manhattan? Great parents come in all combos, colors and sexes. Are you even a parent yourself?

I know you voted for Obama and also supported the lesbian teacher at the christian school, but somehow I'm shocked you have an open minded opinion on anything :laugh:

Tiernan;1485500 wrote:Did one single solitary person read that? Unreal
...just unreal SMFH.

I'd rather read any long speels that he may submit than any retarded crap you come up with. Fuck off and let the adults talk. Rec, I'll get back to you later. At the ER because my mom sliced her finger SMH.

Where was her finger?

Unpopular opinions:

Polygamy should be legal.

All drug use should be legal, and whether or not their administration is tricky should be a responsibility entirely assumed by the user administrating their own. If opiates are dangerous, don't fucking use them unless you assume the responsibility of your life. If you die, then it's your own fucking fault.

Creationism should not be taught in science classes.

Origin theory should not be taught at all in science classes.

Time is anteriorly finite.

I adhere to the posits of the Kalam cosmological argument.

InBev sucks.

I don't think denying gay marriage discriminates on an orientational basis in a technical sense (for the record, I do think it is discriminatory).

I think state-sanctioned marriage should be 100% done away with.

Prostitution should be legal.

A fetus is not a person at conception.

One doesn’t need to overdose on a painkiller in order to achieve a high that would be equivalent to, say, drinking enough alcohol to get drunk. In that sense, it is actually possible to abuse a painkiller “responsibly” (if by "responsibly," you mean "not overdosing"). For example, from my personal experience using narcotics, I know the precise amount I need to take of a given painkiller – whether it is codeine or Vicodin or Percocet – to reach Lil’ Wayne status.

They also don't need to abuse alcohol to get drunk. They can drink the right amount to reach whatever level of drunk they want to achieve, whether it be just slightly buzzed or smashed drunk. I think the main problem with opiate consumption, besides addiction, is that it's so much easier to think you're taking the right amount, but really you're overdosing. With alcohol, you can drink a ton, but the body eventually just shuts down when you've had too much (blacking out). There are of course instances of alcohol poisoning but can be treated medically without much difficulty. Bottom line, we agree that both could be taken responsibly, but overdosing on alcohol is rarely life-threatening, where overdosing on opiates almost always is.

But it is possible. Severe alcohol withdrawal is always life threatening, if not supervised under the care of medical professionals. Severe painkiller withdrawal is its own hell, but not in and of itself a deadly situation. While this life-threatening condition may only apply to the extreme category of alcoholics, as you say, it is still a possibility and, since many abusers of alcohol do not understand just how deadly quitting on their own can be, it makes the situation all the more serious. While I do not have any statistics, I don't think it would be a stretch of the imagination by any means to assume that there are many alcoholics without the money or the resources or time to go to rehab, who, if they ever decide to quit, would probably try to do it on their own, not knowing -- like ManhattanBuckeye -- that alcohol withdrawal is a real medical thing.

Opiate withdrawal can be dangerous under the right circumstances. It's rare, just as it is with alcohol. Here's what I would tell you, though: Most people who attempt to quit drinking cold turkey might be able to go a day or two. But when they start to get the shakes and DT's and feel like shit, they're likely going to say "fuck it" and start drinking again -- just to immediately curb those awful feelings. I don't think a lot of people get to that point where they're in critical condition but are still determined stop drinking. That's just from my medical experience. If you or anyone has statistics to prove otherwise, then I'm all ears. I've seen a lot of patients admitted who will say "I've tried to stop drinking on my own but can never do it."

I don't think this is something the government keeps illegal and won't consider legalizing for whatever reason, like you could theorize with marijuana. Decades ago, countries across the world, backed by governing bodies, medical professionals, etc. decided it was in their best interest to keep this out of the hands of citizens. And to my knowledge, it's never been a real consideration to legalize it, like marijuana again for example.
In (your) perfect world, there's legal amounts available that, if fallen into the wrong hands, wouldn't cause too much harm, like with cigarettes, alcohol, or even marijuana. But cocaine, Dilaudid, heroin -- whatever, is worlds different than anything currently legal.

FatHobbit;1485511 wrote:I know you voted for Obama and also supported the lesbian teacher at the christian school, but somehow I'm shocked you have an open minded opinion on anything :laugh:

And apparently doesn't understand the definition of "optimal." Jeez, it is like saying something is "overrated." People don't understand the term.

By the way I tried to watch Big Bang Theory this morning before going to work - couldn't sit through it. It was the episode where the girls had a "girls night" and the guys went to see Indiana Jones. I think my main issue is the laugh track. It is constant and is distracting, especially when it isn't a joke. I don't hate all shows with laugh tracks, for example Seinfeld, but Seinfeld was more judicious in its use. With BBT it seems like after every line the laugh track kicks in.

If a beer is warm I won't drink it.

Not sure if this is unpopular, but shouldn't prostitution be legal? What else can you do that is illegal if you pay for it, but legal if it is free?

steubbigred;1485618 wrote:If a beer is warm I won't drink it.

Agreed

thavoice;1485780 wrote:Not sure if this is unpopular, but shouldn't prostitution be legal? What else can you do that is illegal if you pay for it, but legal if it is free?

I've actually always wondered why it was illegal.

friendfromlowry;1485538 wrote:They also don't need to abuse alcohol to get drunk. They can drink the right amount to reach whatever level of drunk they want to achieve, whether it be just slightly buzzed or smashed drunk. I think the main problem with opiate consumption, besides addiction, is that it's so much easier to think you're taking the right amount, but really you're overdosing. With alcohol, you can drink a ton, but the body eventually just shuts down when you've had too much (blacking out). There are of course instances of alcohol poisoning but can be treated medically without much difficulty. Bottom line, we agree that both could be taken responsibly, but overdosing on alcohol is rarely life-threatening, where overdosing on opiates almost always is.

Opiate withdrawal can be dangerous under the right circumstances. It's rare, just as it is with alcohol. Here's what I would tell you, though: Most people who attempt to quit drinking cold turkey might be able to go a day or two. But when they start to get the shakes and DT's and feel like ****, they're likely going to say "**** it" and start drinking again -- just to immediately curb those awful feelings. I don't think a lot of people get to that point where they're in critical condition but are still determined stop drinking. That's just from my medical experience. If you or anyone has statistics to prove otherwise, then I'm all ears. I've seen a lot of patients admitted who will say "I've tried to stop drinking on my own but can never do it."

I don't think this is something the government keeps illegal and won't consider legalizing for whatever reason, like you could theorize with marijuana. Decades ago, countries across the world, backed by governing bodies, medical professionals, etc. decided it was in their best interest to keep this out of the hands of citizens. And to my knowledge, it's never been a real consideration to legalize it, like marijuana again for example.

In (your) perfect world, there's legal amounts available that, if fallen into the wrong hands, wouldn't cause too much harm, like with cigarettes, alcohol, or even marijuana. But cocaine, Dilaudid, heroin -- whatever, is worlds different than anything currently legal.

Thanks for the thought-out response. I actually tend to agree with most of what you say, especially with regard to the dangers of inexperienced opiate users. That's a facet that, I think, many advocates of drug legalization tend to overlook or at least not give enough attention. There is no question that, while one of the oldest and safest drugs in the world -- when used in the correct amounts -- opiates are extremely dangerous in the wrong hands and that overdose can happen much easier than with alcohol.

I would still argue, however, that there is no comparison to the dangers of long-term opiate use with that of long-term alcohol use (assuming that we are ignoring the overdose factor, and simply concentrating on the inherent long-term effects of each drug on your body associated with long-term consumption). Say, for example, there is one person (with a relatively low tolerance) who takes just the right amount of single-ingredient oxycoodone every day over the course of a year's time that allows him to achieve a good buzz/high without overdosing. There is another person who every day drinks just enough alcohol in order to achieve a similar buzzed feeling without overdosing or succumbing to alcohol poisoning. While neither of these individuals is necessarily seriously "abusing" his respective substance, only the person partaking in daily alcohol consumption is at risk of serious medical problems as a result of his long-term use. You are obviously a medical professional, which I guess I didn't realize before, so I'm not trying to act as if I know more than you do on the subject -- I don't -- but it would be my view that drinking just enough alcohol every day to get buzzed for an entire year would put somebody at risk of developing serious liver problems or, at the very least, result in some mental distress. No? Maybe I am wrong on that.

Overall, though, while I still am for the legalization of certain drugs, I can definitely see your side of things.

Mortgage tax write off should be done away with, along with marriage tax write off.

reclegend22;1485793 wrote:I would still argue, however, that there is no comparison to the dangers of long-term opiate use with that of long-term alcohol use (assuming that we are ignoring the overdose factor, and simply concentrating on the inherent long-term effects of each drug on your body associated with long-term consumption).

Fair enough. Don't think I can dispute that.

Commander of Awesome;1485807 wrote:Mortgage tax right off should be done away with, along with marriage tax write off.

*write.