skank wrote:

riders1 wrote: Despite Ursulines "PA", the ceiling in D 5 only allows a difference of 51 boys (the descrepency in Crestview and Ursuline is 40 boys), unlike the unlimited variety in D I.

The difference is more than 51 boys, look at the area each draws from Crestview from their district and Ursuline from their diocese,
(and they even have some boys that actually play in the band) Let Crestview be able to attract boys from all over Ashland county, then
you would be on a more even palying field.

I think you are misunderstanding me, I'm on your side of this argument, I think, I was just pointing out the difference in Div V and Div I. Division V consists of schools with enrollments between 125 and 176 boys, that is a difference of 51 boys, no matter how you look at it. Division I consists of schools with enrollments of 518 boys and up.
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Right you are but the D5 or D6 Parochials have a much better chance of recruit eeerrrr I mean enrolling football players from all over their area over a public that only has the much smaller district to pick their 125 to 176 boys, they can't just say we have our 175 boys and not let anymore come to school you have to take all in your district athletes or band members , where as the parochial will say they have reached their limit , come back next year.

Know it all wrote: Davidson would beat Mooney and Alter by 2 touchdowns. By the way I was at the Hilliard Davidson championship rally in the school gym and coach White spoke on this topic. He specifically said...we won our state championship with players strictly from our community not "recruited" as some other schools do. And he did mention a few schools. He simply spoke the truth. Looks like this "private" vs. "public" debate has finally pissed a few perople off. It's about time something is finally done about it.

I would hope Cleveland Glenville " Academic" was at the top of his list. Knowing Coach White and his wife and both of their backgrounds I would doubt he would throw his Coaching and family heritage under the bus in front of a roomful of kids.

riders1 wrote:where as the parochial will say they have reached their limit , come back next year.

Which school did this occurr at?

TCSoup....obviously you weren't there and obviously you don't know coach White or his wife. It was said take it or leave it and many of us "there" agree with what he said.

CardsFlyinHigh wrote: It's beacause once the post season comes around, the wayne county schools are matched up against privates in the playoffs

Right. Both the Smithville boys and girls basketball teams went undefeated but lost in the playoffs. boys lost to cleve. cent. cath and girls lost to Regina.

Orrville has been losing to private schools since the 80's. We lost in the football playoffs in three straight years (83-85), two of those in the state finals. If anyone should have been leading the charge 20 yrs ago, it's us. But now the small county schools are po'd so it gets traction again.

I've got some more thoughts on this issue at my blog.
http://www.redridersportsblog.com/2009/12/public-vs-private.html

Aren't the MAC schools small county schools?

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rmolin73 wrote: Aren't the MAC schools small county schools?

Yes they are! [/align]

Let me throw this out just to further the discussion. Private schools have kids who want to and choose to be at the schools they are at. Whereas public school kids attend a school based on where they live. So given a choice to be somewhere, as opposed to being thrown at the closest school seems like it owuld make a difference in a kids attitude.

Secondly, and I know I will get lit up for this statement, however... for the most part due to the higher academic standards at a private school you have kids who are more accustom to learning and perhaps grasp some more complex situations more quickly. I remember in college the kids that went to private schools seemed to know how to study, studied less and got better grades than us public school kids.

Just a couple of points that I have seen being the internal difference between private and public schools.

The4rings: I'd say it has as much or more to do with parents who care and are involved in the education process. If a parent is shelling out the type of cash a private school requires I highly doubt the tolerate a bunch of bad or even so-so grades! Many public school parents could not care less. Many do, but you don't have that popluation in a private school.

redstreak one wrote: I expect the percentage of students not allowed to enroll in private schools to range from 25 to 30 percent.

Could you explain this further? Who is not allowed to enroll?
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Most likly a kid who's flunking out, parents don't care and has to literly be drug to school by the sheriff wouldn't be allowed into the private school but is required by law to go to the public one.

Odds are disruptive kids aren't allowed to go/stay in private schools.

People who don't have the resources to afford a private school.

Special needs students. (the VAST majority of private schools do not enroll special needs students while public schools are required by law.

So far we have a majority of the population that is "not allowed to enroll". Do you need more?

^^Dead on. They achieve in the classroom and on the field of play because they can basically pick and choose who they want....and just as important, who they DON'T want.

So are we saying that if the "laws of political correctness" that govern the students behavior/attitude in the public schools were apllied to the private schools the field would be more level?

And yes RedRider1 private schools can exclude people based on a variety of reasons. But public schools are taking state money, and as the old saying goes....if you are going to kick a tiger in the ass you better have a plan ready to deal with it's teeth. If you are privately funded, you have a higher level of control (By the way I am not advocating in any way the superiority of private schools v. public schools. I just don' t get all amped up for this debate).

Somebody needed to address this issue a long time ago

The4ringz: Nobody is saying private schools should be forced to take anyone. Nobody is saying public schools should not do their best to educate everyone.

The issue is athletics, not achedemics. We all KNOW there is a difference. Nobody can claim with a straight face they are on the same playing field in terms of the number of kids they have. A small public school with 100 boys is NOT on an equal playing field with a small private school with 100 boys. We all know that beyond a doubt.

The issue becomes: do we do anything about it?

Some say no and point to the occasional championship like the earlier poster about Hilliard football (even as he bitterly calls Glennville an all-star team). Some say yes.

If we do something, what?

Seperate them like a few states?

Have a "multiplier" to help address the fact that private school 100 kids does not equal public school 100 kids? (Mainly based on the fact that it is statistically a much larger issue the smaller the school.)?

"Play up" one division?

There are lots of solutions.

Most of the debate comes down to ego. Private schools love the advantages they can have, though MOST don't use. It's less of an issue in larger schools so by definition it's the smaller parts of the population that shout the loudest.

Is it an advantage on isn't it? I don't think anyone can debate it is.
So given we know it's an advantage, we need to address it rather than burry our head in the sand. (we address other competitive advantages like having divisions based on schools size)

The reason nothing happens is that nobody can agree on HOW to address it. Once we decide on that it will be a slam dunk to implement it.

Make it voluntary. Divisions 1-A through Whatever-A are for private schools and public who wish to complete at the highest level. Divisions 1-B though Whatever-B are for public schools who would rather play "on a level field".

Once again why has tha MAC had so much success over the years? I mean apparently they have it right don't they? Why does everyone keep ignoring this fact? Complain as much as you want but if you eliminate the private schools the MAC schools will own DIV-DVI as if they already don't. Be careful what you wish for. Where I'm from you play whomever is placed in front of you win or lose there isn't any complaining. Hopefully your student bodies aren't a bunch of whiny asses like you guys are.

rmolin73 wrote: Once again why has tha MAC had so much success over the years? I mean apparently they have it right don't they? Why does everyone keep ignoring this fact? Complain as much as you want but if you eliminate the private schools the MAC schools will own DIV-DVI as if they already don't. Be careful what you wish for. Where I'm from you play whomever is placed in front of you win or lose there isn't any complaining. Hopefully your student bodies aren't a bunch of whiny asses like you guys are.

In many of the MAC communities, a catholic school would be 99-100% redundant.

Why is that?

Because the community is 99-100% Catholic.

Isn't Delphos St. Johns a Catholic school?

It is.

so rmolin73: you'd think it was fine if the MAC schools had to play Hilliard Davidson and Cleveland Glenville or D1/D2 private schools?
I don't think so. So you have issues with some advantages (size) but not others (private)? That's very selective of you. The top private schools just happened to be located in other areas of the state.

the MAC schools do fine.
BUT, take the private St Johns out and the 10 remaining schools have 19 state titles total. Which is awesome!

So the 10 Schools left have 19 state titles!

That's 2 LESS than St Johns, Cardinal Mooney and Newark Catholic have combined for! (only 3 schools)

So even in the shining light of the public schools in the MAC. It's dwarfed by just a couple top private schools.

Congrats to Coldwater for making the state finals but 6 of the 8 teams in the D6 - D3 finals were private and all 4 winners.

Given only about 10-15% of the schools are private. The advantage is indisputable.

Here is my suggestion to the "unfairness" that DOES SEEM to exist.... rather than just divisions for how many boys are in the school.... how about an exepmtion for % of boys playing compared to # of boys available.... when at most you can have 176 (using the DV that were previous sited) boys in the school and 80 of them go out for football that is a huge advantage to that school.. the schools that only have 30 kids come out can't continuely compete its impossible.. sure a year here or there but not consistant. and i'm talking all players not just varsity... jv and frosh included... cause if you DV school team that can without quesiton have a frosh team every year thats a huge advantage a number of DIV schools have a hard time fielding Frosh teams... not sure where to put percentages at but just for the sake of agrueing lets say if 50% of the boy available play then you move up 2 division if 35% play then one division and if less than 35% you stay were you are.... i'd say the same for reverse too if you can only muster say 20% then you could elect to move down a division... i mean i'd think that Ursiline would like to move up a division or two and play some better competion would you? just a thought go ahead and rip me apart now

*edit* this would go for both private and public schools

How about this as a solution?.. Let's teach our public school kids that no matter what it is in life high school sports, getting into a college, finding a job, once you start and continue your career, have kids, raise them, hell even trying to find your future spouse, that someone, somewhere is always going to have an advantage over you. And the only way to level the playing field is to work your ass off twice as hard as someone who seems to have that advantage. Guess that is how we used to do it, what has changed? The kids? No. The parents? Maybe. The school adminsitration? Perhaps. Society in general who thinks everyone should be equal in the opportunites presented to them? Yes. (Notice I said "presented to them" not "that they create for themselves").

thereddragin wrote: Here is my suggestion to the "unfairness" that DOES SEEM to exist.... just a thought go ahead and rip me apart now

*edit* this would go for both private and public schools

In a vacuum this would work. But peer pressure would reduce those going out for the sport in order to keep the numbers down and in a lower division.

Sonofanump wrote:

thereddragin wrote: Here is my suggestion to the "unfairness" that DOES SEEM to exist.... just a thought go ahead and rip me apart now

*edit* this would go for both private and public schools

In a vacuum this would work. But peer pressure would reduce those going out for the sport in order to keep the numbers down and in a lower division.

and whats wrong with that? keep the kids that don't really want to be there away make them MAKE the team... rather than say ok we only have 30 boys so you can be on the team...

personally i don't think they should change it.. cause when a public wins its that much sweeter... tho i do think there is an advantage..