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How to better protect our schools?

Home ▸ Archive ▸ Serious Business ▸ How to better protect our schools?
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gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Dec 18, 2012 1:47 PM
WebFire;1346006 wrote: 4. Liability for schools. You are setting up the school for a lot of potential liability. Proper training, proper care of guns, accidental discharges, improper use of the gun, etc. People are sue happy these days.
That's the side of the equation being completely ignored. Any number of the issues you mentioned are many, many more times likely to happen than a Columbine or Newton-type event.

I don't see it as a deterrent, either. CCW is effective because most criminals don't want to get involved in a shootout, they just want your car or money. But these shooters are expecting to die or commit suicide. Perhaps they would choose another target if the school is not so easy because of CCW. I don't really see this happening at a mall or theater or McD's instead as somehow less tragic.

It's a little cliche, but you can't live in a free society and protect people from any and all tragedies. How many people, and children, die in car accidents every year? We don't make personal autos illegal and force everyone to take public transit.
Dec 18, 2012 1:47pm
B

BoatShoes

Senior Member

5,703 posts
Dec 18, 2012 2:05 PM
Let's imagine a reality where every school in America has teachers walking around with concealed weapons. It is more likely that one of these teachers will start offing kids intentionally or the gun killing kids accidentally than it is that they will take down a surprise school shooter on a rampage in body armor.
Dec 18, 2012 2:05pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Dec 18, 2012 2:06 PM
BoatShoes;1346552 wrote:Let's imagine a reality where every school in America has teachers walking around with concealed weapons. It is more likely that one of these teachers will start offing kids intentionally or the gun killing kids accidentally than it is that they will take down a surprise school shooter on a rampage in body armor.
You wouldn't see a rampage in body amour if your scenario existed.
Dec 18, 2012 2:06pm
bases_loaded's avatar

bases_loaded

Senior Member

6,912 posts
Dec 18, 2012 2:13 PM
I didn't read through the pages, but saw a great idea on Facebook. Arm our unemployed Vets and station them at schools. Solves two problems.
Dec 18, 2012 2:13pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Dec 18, 2012 2:15 PM
ccrunner609;1346020 wrote:you keep talking about how a armed person in a school may not be able to do anything.,....the national policies amongst schools of playing hide and seek arent going to do anything ever. Any form of self defense in that school was 1,000,000 times better then what they had.
Passive measures would be far more effective at preventing an incident in the first place. Money and resources are better spent at keeping the shooter out of the building. I can't believe it's even a debate otherwise.

The knee-jerk reactions from the left and right seem to be less guns vs. more guns. Both are piss-poor solutions.
Dec 18, 2012 2:15pm
Pick6's avatar

Pick6

A USA American

14,946 posts
Dec 18, 2012 2:16 PM
I think I might be more concerned with unemployed vets then gun-weilding school officials.
Dec 18, 2012 2:16pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Dec 18, 2012 2:24 PM
bases_loaded;1346561 wrote:I didn't read through the pages, but saw a great idea on Facebook. Arm our unemployed Vets and station them at schools. Solves two problems.
Or pay off-duty cops who would be more than happy to do it and pick-up a few extra bucks.

I still say eliminate first floor floor-to-ceiling windows and glass entrances and it's a hell of a lot more difficult, and more time consuming, to even get into the building in the first place.

Should we really be devoting scarce resources to TRYING to shift the target on a 1 in a million event to someplace else? The shock and tragedy of such events tends to cause people to think irrationally.
Dec 18, 2012 2:24pm
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Benny The Jet

Senior Member

2,987 posts
Dec 18, 2012 2:31 PM
WebFire;1346507 wrote:Benny, did you watch the video?
I did not, I'm not able to access them while at work. I will when I get home though.

And for boatshoes, unless I'm reading it wrong, I don't think you'd have to worry about a teacher carrying around a gun during school in their back pocket. It'd be locked up in a safe at all time. Like someone said earlier, I like the idea of it being tied into an alarm that's triggered whenever opened.
Dec 18, 2012 2:31pm
bases_loaded's avatar

bases_loaded

Senior Member

6,912 posts
Dec 18, 2012 2:37 PM
gut;1346575 wrote:Or pay off-duty cops who would be more than happy to do it and pick-up a few extra bucks.

I still say eliminate first floor floor-to-ceiling windows and glass entrances and it's a hell of a lot more difficult, and more time consuming, to even get into the building in the first place.

Should we really be devoting scarce resources to TRYING to shift the target on a 1 in a million event to someplace else? The shock and tragedy of such events tends to cause people to think irrationally.
This too
Dec 18, 2012 2:37pm
W

WebFire

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14,779 posts
Dec 18, 2012 2:59 PM
Benny The Jet;1346588 wrote:I did not, I'm not able to access them while at work. I will when I get home though.

And for boatshoes, unless I'm reading it wrong, I don't think you'd have to worry about a teacher carrying around a gun during school in their back pocket. It'd be locked up in a safe at all time. Like someone said earlier, I like the idea of it being tied into an alarm that's triggered whenever opened.
Locked up? If by key, too late in many cases. Not sure how else you could secure it to keep kids out and let adults in quickly. Probably have to be a fingerprint lock, but the cost is too great.
Dec 18, 2012 2:59pm
Pick6's avatar

Pick6

A USA American

14,946 posts
Dec 18, 2012 3:03 PM
WebFire;1346618 wrote:Locked up? If by key, too late in many cases. Not sure how else you could secure it to keep kids out and let adults in quickly. Probably have to be a fingerprint lock, but the cost is too great.
What makes you say that? Use this case for example. Teacher hears gun shots in hallway. Hides under desk. Coward comes in classroom where she could have a clear shot to immobilize the murderer. Would have worked perfect in this scenario. Its not realistic to think that would be "too late" in most cases. Maybe if it was the first person the gunman encounters, then yes it would be too late for them. Not everybody else.
Dec 18, 2012 3:03pm
W

WebFire

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14,779 posts
Dec 18, 2012 3:05 PM
Pick6;1346624 wrote:What makes you say that? Use this case for example. Teacher hears gun shots in hallway. Hides under desk. Coward comes in classroom where she could have a clear shot to immobilize the murderer. Would have worked perfect in this scenario. Its not realistic to think that would be "too late" in most cases. Maybe if it was the first person the gunman encounters, then yes it would be too late for them. Not everybody else.
Maybe. But I just have to think of the risk of having a gun in every classroom. Where are the keys kept?
Dec 18, 2012 3:05pm
Pick6's avatar

Pick6

A USA American

14,946 posts
Dec 18, 2012 3:09 PM
WebFire;1346633 wrote:Maybe. But I just have to think of the risk of having a gun in every classroom. Where are the keys kept?
Its impossible to eliminate all risk. Why does it have to be a key? Cant it be a combination lock?
Dec 18, 2012 3:09pm
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sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Dec 18, 2012 3:15 PM
WebFire;1346633 wrote:Maybe. But I just have to think of the risk of having a gun in every classroom. Where are the keys kept?
Why not put tasers in the classroom? EZ
Dec 18, 2012 3:15pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Dec 18, 2012 3:18 PM
sleeper;1346640 wrote:Why not put tasers in the classroom? EZ
Or how about a half-dozen pitbulls patrolling the halls?
Dec 18, 2012 3:18pm
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sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Dec 18, 2012 3:20 PM
gut;1346641 wrote:Or how about a half-dozen pitbulls patrolling the halls?
That would kill too many children. Pitbulls eat about 3 per day.
Dec 18, 2012 3:20pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Dec 18, 2012 3:22 PM
sleeper;1346644 wrote:That would kill too many children. Pitbulls eat about 3 per day.
Yes, but they would prevent THIS incident from happening again!
Dec 18, 2012 3:22pm
Pick6's avatar

Pick6

A USA American

14,946 posts
Dec 18, 2012 3:30 PM
gut;1346645 wrote:Yes, but they would prevent THIS incident from happening again!
Keep mocking all you want. At least I have came up with something better than making the first floor of every school essentially a fortress. Really cost effective there.

Taken from Sonofanump's post in the poli forum:


- A 1997 high school shooting in Pearl, Miss., was halted by the school's vice principal after he retrieved the Colt .45 he kept in his truck.
- A 1998 middle school shooting ended when a man living next door heard gunfire and apprehended the shooter with his shotgun.
- A 2002 terrorist attack at an Israeli school was quickly stopped by an armed teacher and a school guard.
- A 2002 law school shooting in Grundy, Va., came to an abrupt conclusion when students carrying firearms confronted the shooter.
- A 2007 mall shooting in Ogden, Utah, ended when an armed off-duty police officer intervened.
- A 2009 workplace shooting in Houston, Texas, was halted by two coworkers who carried concealed handguns.
- A 2012 church shooting in Aurora, Colo., was stopped by a member of the congregation carrying a gun.
• At the recent mall shooting in Portland, Ore., the gunman took his own life minutes after being confronted by a shopper carrying a concealed weapon.

2500 times last year alone legal gun owners stopped violent crime when confronted with it long before any police assistance .
Dec 18, 2012 3:30pm
W

WebFire

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14,779 posts
Dec 18, 2012 3:37 PM
Pick6;1346634 wrote:Its impossible to eliminate all risk. Why does it have to be a key? Cant it be a combination lock?
I don't know, I asked you first. ;) Combo might work, but I think you underestimate what the mind goes through during these things. Combo may not be the best. And what is happening while the teacher fumbles with the lock? Then no one is attending to the kids. Easy to say they can hide themselves, but we are talking very young children, and scared ones at that.

It seems like it should play out great, but I just don't believe it would.
Dec 18, 2012 3:37pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Dec 18, 2012 3:37 PM
Pick6;1346651 wrote:Keep mocking all you want. At least I have came up with something better than making the first floor of every school essentially a fortress. Really cost effective there.
It is, actually. It's a larger upfront cost (though not nearly as much as you would think, other options beside retro-fitting windows), but that's it for decades. And if you design the schools right in the first place, the cost is much smaller.

And it doesn't exactly close the deal talking about guns stopping these shootings. You're ignoring all the other incidents introduced, such as accidental and improper shootings. You're just introducing new problems in an attempt to solve a far less likely issue. As I said, it's not a solution at all.

Otherwise, we never should have cracked down on guns and knives in the schools...the solution was more guns, arm the teachers and administrators, right?
Dec 18, 2012 3:37pm
W

WebFire

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14,779 posts
Dec 18, 2012 3:55 PM
Here is the rest of the video from earlier. This part touches on the how focused the last shooter was that she nearly took out her own.

[video=youtube;rLN6_s66wTg][/video]
Dec 18, 2012 3:55pm
B

BoatShoes

Senior Member

5,703 posts
Dec 18, 2012 4:37 PM
Con_Alma;1346555 wrote:You wouldn't see a rampage in body amour if your scenario existed.
LoL. What makes you so confident in that assertion? The kind of dude that is going to attack a crowd of kids is not exactly a rational person. :rolleyes:
Dec 18, 2012 4:37pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Dec 18, 2012 5:53 PM
ccrunner609;1346711 wrote:There are 117,00 schools in the US and none of them can keep someone out that really wants in. If you think money spent on keeping them out and practicing hide and seek are the best method.....we have passed that era friday.
That school offered virtually no resistance to getting in for someone that wanted to.

Advocating CCW for officials is just something the NRA will propose in a knee jerk reaction to the same from the left. Just as predictable - their solution is always more guns.

If you want to keep kids truly safe (including from CCW people making mistakes, among other things), you do a much better job of controlling access.

It isn't that expensive, and likely cheaper in the long-run than paying for arms and training.

Besides, your plan fails when you can't find volunteers to do this. And smaller grade schools with mostly women? You're plan is a non-starter. So then you have to pay someone, which is going to be much more expensive than some relatively simple and easy engineering fixes.
Dec 18, 2012 5:53pm