If Holmgren is hired, Mangini is gone. He's the rare breed of asshole who not only can't coach, but also can provoke a locker room revolt at the drop of a hat.

This isn't "getting rid of loafers", this is getting rid of guys who might challenge his bloated and totally unjustifiably massive ego. Kellen Winslow is as competitive of an individual who has ever played in the NFL and is a top-five tight end in the league...why did he go? Braylon Edwards is exactly the type of receiver that every team loves to have...why did absolutely nothing of value come back? We saw this already when Butch Davis wanted to purge the locker room of anyone who might not be at the forefront of his college rah-rah garbage.

Being the sole leader in the locker room works one way: if the team has success. When all the team leaders go and the team itself struggles, a revolt against the coach is inevitable. Something about former Belichick guys just seem to have that effect...

I would much rather have Mangina than Urban Meyer.Hell, I would rather have Romeo than Urban Meyer.

^^^

Then you may be the most unintelligent football person I know

NNN wrote: If Holmgren is hired, Mangini is gone. He's the rare breed of asshole who not only can't coach, but also can provoke a locker room revolt at the drop of a hat.

This isn't "getting rid of loafers", this is getting rid of guys who might challenge his bloated and totally unjustifiably massive ego. Kellen Winslow is as competitive of an individual who has ever played in the NFL and is a top-five tight end in the league...why did he go? Braylon Edwards is exactly the type of receiver that every team loves to have...why did absolutely nothing of value come back? We saw this already when Butch Davis wanted to purge the locker room of anyone who might not be at the forefront of his college rah-rah garbage.

Being the sole leader in the locker room works one way: if the team has success. When all the team leaders go and the team itself struggles, a revolt against the coach is inevitable. Something about former Belichick guys just seem to have that effect...

I guess you missed the posts of mine where our two best players have made it publicly known that they thing Mangini and his plan are going to work. The so-called locker room revolt ended the minute Winslow, Edwards, Shaun Smith and Louis Leonard were shipped out of town. Amazing part is we managed to get 5 picks out of trading those four guys.

"Loafers". Of course they aren't loafers, but me first, team distraction, locker room cancers, that they are. Winslow wanted a contract he never earned, wasted two seasons during his time here trying to be a stunt motorcyclist and on I.R., yet wanted a record extension. Edwards is the type of player every team wants? Really? I guess you missed all the dropped passes, the ball that bounced off of his face mask a few weeks ago, all the downs compared to the I can count on one hand ups in his career. A top ten draft pick who managed to achieve his potential in ONE season, yet wanted the same type of money as a player thats put up all-world numbers his entire career, thats the type of player every team would want? The Jets are 4-6 since the trade, we are 3-7, with a lot less talent on this team. His drops, lack of composure, and lack of concentration have likely cost the Jets at least one win this season. There's a reason they haven't committed to giving him an extension, he just may not be worth it. Its laughable that you claim we got nothing back for him. He's had 31 receptions for 509 yards and 4 td's as a Jet, what kind of value do those numbers project out to be worth, exactly? Trusnik has played well, Stuckey has had some bright spots, and we gained two draft picks out of the deal. The only mistake we made was not taking the Giants offer of a 2nd, 5th, and Hixon, who really isn't doing much offensively anyways.

You speak very highly of BE and KW2, calling them "Team Leaders" and such. I may throw up now.

Elliot Stabler wrote: ^^^

Then you may be the most unintelligent football person I know

I suspect you won't know which NFL team you support until you see who wins the Super Bowl, but whoever it ends up being, you can have Urban and his spread. NFL QBs would get killed playing in Urban's offense.

My teams are the Browns(since birth) and the Vikings(because of Percy Harvin)

Did you see any games from his first two years at Florida?? He played a much more drop-back verison of the spread,as he had to adapt to a "regular" QB.

His offense could and would work in the NFL

I think people are putting an awful lot of faith into the 11 draft picks personally.

6 of them are 5th rounders or later. It's not like we stockpiled day 1 picks.

It's much more probable that a player drafted that late will be cut from the team entirely than become an important piece.

I hope Mangini is the head coach of the Browns next season. The team plays hard game in and game out. I think progress has been made defensively and I think another year under Rob Ryan and Mangini will only improve our team. Daboll can pack his bags tonight and I could careless. With Holmgren potentially coming in along with 11 picks and comfortable cap space I think the team can go in the right direction. Mangini is solid drafting in the past and this past draft is looking to be his M.O. as he took Oline first round with the Jets by getting Ferguson and Mangold. He has a plan in place and knows the type of guy he wants. Other than Brady/Moss in recent years the Patriots were a group of guys that were overlooked by other teams or maybe not the highest drafted. Yet each guy is smart and knows the fundamentals of the game. With the 09 draft class and players brought in through FA we can see this is already the trend and Mangini has had success with Bernard, Roth, Moore, and Jennings.

I am starting to believe that his personality and lack of media availability is what has put him on the hot seat. Why isn't Todd Haley, Spagnuolo, Schwartz, or Morris on the hot seat for having such poor first years? Everyone in those cities are understanding that the team is rebuilding yet here in Cleveland we had such high expectations for Mangini. If that is the case it is our own faults and shouldn't cost the man his job when progress has been made.

Mulva wrote: I think people are putting an awful lot of faith into the 11 draft picks personally.

6 of them are 5th rounders or later. It's not like we stockpiled day 1 picks.

It's much more probable that a player drafted that late will be cut from the team entirely than become an important piece.

I agree, one friend of mine said to trade some of our picks for another first rounder but that would take probably 10/11 picks to do so. The point I made in my post is that I think Mangini has been around an environment that has built success from guys that were undrafted or late round picks in NE that hopefully he has seen how to evaluate guys and find ones that fit into what he wants to build.

You're right, its better to not stockpile draft picks, and just overpay players that have managed to produce for a total of one season at an elite level on the field. New England and Philadelphia, two frequent playoff teams, have made it a point to obtain as many draft picks as possible. Tom Brady wasn't even New Englands first 6th round choice in 2000.

Elliot Stabler wrote:

No way in hell.

We've tried the "hire the college coaching phenom" and he ended up quitting on the team and was a lousy, lousy de facto GM.

I want someone with NFL experience.

h2thaizzo wrote: I guess you missed the posts of mine where our two best players have made it publicly known that they thing Mangini and his plan are going to work. The so-called locker room revolt ended the minute Winslow, Edwards, Shaun Smith and Louis Leonard were shipped out of town. Amazing part is we managed to get 5 picks out of trading those four guys.

A 2nd and a 5th for Winslow, 3rd and 5th for Edwards, and a "late" pick for Smith. That's a pretty feeble return.

Of course, then consider trading the #5 pick for what came out to #21, #52, #191, #195, and three largely useless players.

"Loafers". Of course they aren't loafers, but me first, team distraction, locker room cancers, that they are. Winslow wanted a contract he never earned, wasted two seasons during his time here trying to be a stunt motorcyclist and on I.R., yet wanted a record extension.

First season missed was thanks to the brilliant move to put him out there for an onside kick. Second, as soon as Winslow started talking contract extension he was traded. Mangini didn't want him around from Day One.

Edwards is the type of player every team wants? Really? I guess you missed all the dropped passes, the ball that bounced off of his face mask a few weeks ago, all the downs compared to the I can count on one hand ups in his career. A top ten draft pick who managed to achieve his potential in ONE season, yet wanted the same type of money as a player thats put up all-world numbers his entire career, thats the type of player every team would want? The Jets are 4-6 since the trade, we are 3-7, with a lot less talent on this team. His drops, lack of composure, and lack of concentration have likely cost the Jets at least one win this season. There's a reason they haven't committed to giving him an extension, he just may not be worth it. Its laughable that you claim we got nothing back for him. He's had 31 receptions for 509 yards and 4 td's as a Jet, what kind of value do those numbers project out to be worth, exactly? Trusnik has played well, Stuckey has had some bright spots, and we gained two draft picks out of the deal. The only mistake we made was not taking the Giants offer of a 2nd, 5th, and Hixon, who really isn't doing much offensively anyways.

Edwards has the talent that everyone loves without the production to match. You also forget that as soon as Mangini came in, the "Edwards is available" train started rolling....this was back in February.

You forget that this is a league that will draft and pay millions of dollars to guys who can't play football because of their combine numbers. And once one of those players has proven that he can't play, he'll still get plenty of chances to reinforce what was already known.

You speak very highly of BE and KW2, calling them "Team Leaders" and such. I may throw up now.

Winslow yes, Edwards no.

h2thaizzo wrote: You're right, its better to not stockpile draft picks, and just overpay players that have managed to produce for a total of one season at an elite level on the field. New England and Philadelphia, two frequent playoff teams, have made it a point to obtain as many draft picks as possible. Tom Brady wasn't even New Englands first 6th round choice in 2000.

I didn't say that at all. I just said that people are putting an awful lot of faith in picks that are likely going to be depth if anything and have a very good shot of being cut within 2 years.

Brandon McDonald, Melila Purcell, Chase Pittman, Syndric Steptoe, Ahtyba Rubin, Paul Hubbard, Don Carey, Coye Francies, James Davis.

^ Browns 5th or later round draft picks over the past 3 years.

How many of them are even still on the team? Brandon McDonald, who everyone so desperately wants to replace, is the only one who gets significant playing time.

We didn't get nearly enough for the guys we traded, but that's a different point entirely. My point was that I think the people talking about the 11 draft picks like they're going to significantly improve the team should probably check themselves.

And everyone knows Tom Brady is the exception to the rule. For every 1 Tom Brady there are 100 late round draft picks who never make an impact in the NFL.

People are saying that this year was essentially a mulligan for Mangini because it's a complete rebuild. Getting rid of Edwards, Winslow, etc. was necessary to start over. Well a complete rebuild is going to take much more than 1 season. If the Browns win 3-5 again next year will people still be patient with the Mangini rebuild? Because it won't be an immediate fix no matter who is in here.

That's not true at all..

The NFL is a year to year league in the truest form..

We've seen 1-15 or 2-14 teams go to the playoffs the next season...

All it takes is a solid draft and some key free agent signings.

I can't ever recall a team doing that besides the Dolphins. But to me, it seems like most quick turnaround years come from teams that were only down 1-2 seasons at most.

For example, the Dolphins won 10 games in 2003 and 9 in 2005. They were awful in 2007, but it wasn't a sustained period of being terrible. They were up and down all decade.

Baltimore went 13-3 in 2006. They dropped to 5-11 in 2007, but then rebounded immediately last year.

Who is the biggest turnaround story this year? The Bengals? Yeah, they only won 4 last year, but they went .500 or better every year from 2003-2006.

The teams that are consistently awful (Lions, Browns, Raiders, Rams now) will usually take longer to rebuild, especially when you completely clean house like the Browns pretty much did.

NNN wrote:

h2thaizzo wrote: I guess you missed the posts of mine where our two best players have made it publicly known that they thing Mangini and his plan are going to work. The so-called locker room revolt ended the minute Winslow, Edwards, Shaun Smith and Louis Leonard were shipped out of town. Amazing part is we managed to get 5 picks out of trading those four guys.

A 2nd and a 5th for Winslow, 3rd and 5th for Edwards, and a "late" pick for Smith. That's a pretty feeble return.

Of course, then consider trading the #5 pick for what came out to #21, #52, #191, #195, and three largely useless players.

"Loafers". Of course they aren't loafers, but me first, team distraction, locker room cancers, that they are. Winslow wanted a contract he never earned, wasted two seasons during his time here trying to be a stunt motorcyclist and on I.R., yet wanted a record extension.

First season missed was thanks to the brilliant move to put him out there for an onside kick. Second, as soon as Winslow started talking contract extension he was traded. Mangini didn't want him around from Day One.

Edwards is the type of player every team wants? Really? I guess you missed all the dropped passes, the ball that bounced off of his face mask a few weeks ago, all the downs compared to the I can count on one hand ups in his career. A top ten draft pick who managed to achieve his potential in ONE season, yet wanted the same type of money as a player thats put up all-world numbers his entire career, thats the type of player every team would want? The Jets are 4-6 since the trade, we are 3-7, with a lot less talent on this team. His drops, lack of composure, and lack of concentration have likely cost the Jets at least one win this season. There's a reason they haven't committed to giving him an extension, he just may not be worth it. Its laughable that you claim we got nothing back for him. He's had 31 receptions for 509 yards and 4 td's as a Jet, what kind of value do those numbers project out to be worth, exactly? Trusnik has played well, Stuckey has had some bright spots, and we gained two draft picks out of the deal. The only mistake we made was not taking the Giants offer of a 2nd, 5th, and Hixon, who really isn't doing much offensively anyways.

Edwards has the talent that everyone loves without the production to match. You also forget that as soon as Mangini came in, the "Edwards is available" train started rolling....this was back in February.

You forget that this is a league that will draft and pay millions of dollars to guys who can't play football because of their combine numbers. And once one of those players has proven that he can't play, he'll still get plenty of chances to reinforce what was already known.

You speak very highly of BE and KW2, calling them "Team Leaders" and such. I may throw up now.

Winslow yes, Edwards no.

Feeble return my ass. Whatever you're smoking, I'd love some. Winslow had ONE good season, Edwards, ONE good season. Those don't translate into number one picks bud. Shit, Edwards trade gave us potential to earn a 2nd round pick, and he hasn't even came close to hitting those numbers. When you're a top ten draft pick with one 1,000 yard season to boot, blasting your mouth off about how you want 10+mil per season, after leading the league in dropped passes, get the fuck off my team. Winslow is more of the same. Make whatever excuses you will, but the guy managed to produce for one season as a Brown. to expect more than a 2nd and 5th from the numbers and constant injury concerns he brought is insane.

I kind of hated losing Winslow, just because he was sure handed and did care about winning, but then he started flapping about a new (BIG) contract, something I wouldn't have been comfortable with as a Browns fan.. He had to go.

Braylon? Uh... Yea... He wasn't anything before or after that '07 season that really makes me regret trading him.

The Patriots, Colts, Steelers, etc. are good for a reason. They have plans and they have leadership. They don't fire their coaches every year.

Eric Mangini is the strong leadership the Browns need. He is turning it around. They've played hard all year which is a testament to him. He deserves more than one year. How people are for firing him 14 games into his first season is mind-boggling.

We'll be fine. Mangini is a fine coach too. This team really just didn't have talent when he came here. He's done everything you should do in that spot: trade down, amass picks, and get rid of polarizing veterans who whine (Edwards, K2, Shaun Smith, etc...also, look at how those guys have went on to help their teams since being traded).

I would like to see Mangini get another year, but the OC spot needs to be changed.

The Pats, Steelers, Colts, etc. are good because of their front office more so than their head coaches. Yes, their HCs help, but when your organization as a whole is a model franchise, that helps. Look at how there was no turnover when Tomlin and Caldwell took over. It isn't because they are fantastic head coaches. All three of those teams know how to draft and get players to buy in. Not to mention, FAs want to sign with them. Those are all things the Browns have no idea about and it will not start under Mangini. Hiring Holmgren is going to be a great move on the Browns start and hopefully take them in the direction of the Patriots, Steelers and Colts.

Lenin wrote: I love how people are so ecstatic about matching last season's win total. Oh boy! Four wins! It is the freaking NFL. It really isn't that hard to win four games. The worst team in the league is usually in the 3-4 win range. That is no accomplishment at all. If you didn't think the Browns would win at least four games prior to the season, you're an idiot.

You're an idiot. These guys don't have any talent outside of Cribbs, and he's a fucking return man. I didn't think they'd win one game, let alone 3. Mangina deserves another year. Let's see how the draft turns out and if they are playing like shit next year then he can get canned, but right now the guys are playing hard and thats all you can ask, because from a talent perspective they are outmatched every Sunday.

A couple things i've found funny reading through this thread......As a Steelers fan (thus having an unbiased opinion in this matter), I completely agree with h2thaizzo. Manhattan Buckeye doesn't know shit - talk all you want about the Jets being so happy to get rid of Mangini and how the Browns are 3-11, but evidently you haven't watched this team play. Sorry to say, but they play with much more passion than your Jets. Anyone who knows anything about football knows that regardless of how much talent you have, there needs to be a passion for the game and a passion to succeed. I've played my share of football, including college, and i'll gladly tell you that establishing passion in a locker room is much harder than establishing talent. That talent will come with some brains devising next year's draft picks. You can't coach effort though.....that's something that the men obviously are providing out of respect for their coach. So bitch about Mangini all you want and how glad you are that he's out of New York - your opinion of what's important in the locker room proves why New York is still struggling. Rex is the biggest baby and finger-pointer in the league. Guy loves to make excuses.

NNN......your evaluation of talent must not be very good. Your interests in Winslow and Edwards show a lack of insight. Edwards couldn't catch a cold in the winter time and had no desire to provide any production in Cleveland. He's had maybe 3 successful games in New York and still shows the uncanny ability to lose focus in a heart beat and drop passes that are put right in his chest. Complain about what they got in return for him, but they're lucky they even got guys that can suit up. I was thinking maybe the Jets would offer one of their water boys, a couple of gatorade containers, and maybe a sideline heater for the cold in Cleveland in order to get Edwards. As far as Winslow goes, I would have taken a pile of shit on my front porch to get rid of him. He has by far the worst mentality of any football player in the NFL and he's evidently missing a portion of the brain responsible for acting like a civilized human being.

Cleveland wasn't getting anything fro Winslow and Edwards who rarely produced for Cleveland and basically it was one year.

I want to give Mangini another year just for consistency purposes. I like how hard the team plays and what type of play he is trying to establish with little players he has. Ryan is going to be a very good DC if given some young defensive 1st and 2nd rounders like Berry, McClain, or another LB.

Cleveland does have a lot of late picks but you can package those together and move up into the mid-early rounds. Plus, the team has money for FA.

I was convinced the Browns needed to get rid of Mangini, but after the last two games, they need to give him one more year. This team is not talented at all, but they are playing hard despite playing for basically nothing but pride.

I'm really impressed with the win total, because early in the year I thought the Browns were the worst NFL team to ever take the field, but as the year progressed, they have become more competitive, which you would expect the opposite. And you have to give Mangini credit for that.

Mangini deserves one more year. Let's bring in the front office that should have been in place when we came back to the league. We need the talent scouts to do their job, fill the draft slots with quality players, and let Eric roll for at least 2 more years.