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mella
Posts: 647
Jun 30, 2012 12:21pm
I never implied TM was an angel. Both people could have apparently handled the evening differently. Only one of them had a gun and only one got killed. GZ reminds me of a lot of "tough guys". He seems to be that little guy that talks trash when his larger friends are around but when he is alone he is the first one pissing down his leg. Take the gun out of the equation, GZ could still be an effective neighborhood watch guy armed with a camera and a cell phone. I am not anti gun or anti protection, he handled the situation wrong.
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gut
Posts: 15,058
Jun 30, 2012 12:22pm
Yet getting out of your car and even confronting someone is not a crime. Unless you can prove Zimmerman started the fight, I don't think you can negate self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. The gray area is shooting someone vs. whether a jury considers getting your head bashed on cement as life-threatening. Personally I tend to think it is and wouldn't say "well twice is not life-threatening, but 3 times is". Basing someone's head on cement is assault with a deadly weapon, perhaps not technically but not a distinction I'd expect a juror to make.mella;1215751 wrote:I'm not saying GZ will be found guilty beyond a resonable doubt. But he is a piece of crap that was looking for trouble, felt like a man because he was carrying a gun, should have stayed in his car and let the police do their job. None of the points have to stand alone because they did not occur alone, they are sequential events that all occurred on the same evening that resulted in one person shooting another person.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Jun 30, 2012 12:23pm
Him handling it "right" or wrong is no longer the issue.mella;1215760 wrote:I never implied TM was an angel. Both people could have apparently handled the evening differently. Only one of them had a gun and only one got killed. GZ reminds me of a lot of "tough guys". He seems to be that little guy that talks trash when his larger friends are around but when he is alone he is the first one pissing down his leg. Take the gun out of the equation, GZ could still be an effective neighborhood watch guy armed with a camera and a cell phone. I am not anti gun or anti protection, he handled the situation wrong.
The question now is did he handle it in an illegal manner or not.
Speedofsand
Posts: 5,529
Jun 30, 2012 12:24pm
If prosecutors cannot produce evidence that Zimmerman initiated the fight – and a state investigator testified on April 20 that it can not – “I think the state’s really in trouble,” Tennis said.
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gut
Posts: 15,058
Jun 30, 2012 12:27pm
I agree with all of that. I don't think the law makes a distinction, but I almost feel like if you have a gun and are in the relative safety of your house or car, getting out with your gun means you are no longer "standing your ground". The law should discourage people like Zimmerman from going looking for trouble because they are emboldened by having a gun.mella;1215760 wrote:I never implied TM was an angel. Both people could have apparently handled the evening differently. Only one of them had a gun and only one got killed. GZ reminds me of a lot of "tough guys". He seems to be that little guy that talks trash when his larger friends are around but when he is alone he is the first one pissing down his leg. Take the gun out of the equation, GZ could still be an effective neighborhood watch guy armed with a camera and a cell phone. I am not anti gun or anti protection, he handled the situation wrong.
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gut
Posts: 15,058
Jun 30, 2012 12:31pm
Add to that that TM was supposedly shot at point blank range - less than 24". In my unqualified opinion, that is consistent with what I would expect with a fight/struggle.Speedofsand;1215763 wrote:If prosecutors cannot produce evidence that Zimmerman initiated the fight – and a state investigator testified on April 20 that it can not – “I think the state’s really in trouble,” Tennis said.
If the state can't prove who started the fight, then I really think the case should be thrown out. However, given the politics it's much easier for the judge to punt this to a jury. Perhaps the prosecution is really hoping to plea the case out to some sort of reasonable and deserved punishment. But, again, given the politics I'm not sure a plea is a satisfactory outcome.
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mella
Posts: 647
Jun 30, 2012 12:35pm
I don't think there is enough evidence to find him guilty of murder and I don't think there is enough evidence to find him legally guilty of much. It is a he said - he said situation and one person can't testify to what happened. I've just been stating my opinion of what I think of GZ. GZ was emboldened by the fact that he was carrying a gun and he helped to create a situation in which a person was shot and killed.Speedofsand;1215763 wrote:If prosecutors cannot produce evidence that Zimmerman initiated the fight – and a state investigator testified on April 20 that it can not – “I think the state’s really in trouble,” Tennis said.
Speedofsand
Posts: 5,529
Jun 30, 2012 12:42pm
GZ gave a bunch of statements to police, he passed 2 voice stress tests, he cooperated fully from the minute it happened. If he was looking to confront TM with a gun, he could have done it twice before the fight. He could have drawn before TM got close enough to punch him and tackle him and, as a witness described...'got on him and was hitting his head MMA ground and pound style.'
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Big_Mirg_ZHS
Posts: 2,079
Jun 30, 2012 12:49pm
All i know here is one man was walking with skittles the other following him around in a vehicle with a gun.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Jun 30, 2012 1:03pm
He also passed 2 lie detector tests the night of the incident.Speedofsand;1215768 wrote:GZ gave a bunch of statements to police, he passed 2 voice stress tests, he cooperated fully from the minute it happened. If he was looking to confront TM with a gun, he could have done it twice before the fight. He could have drawn before TM got close enough to punch him and tackle him and, as a witness described...'got on him and was hitting his head MMA ground and pound style.'
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bigdaddy2003
Posts: 7,384
Jun 30, 2012 1:10pm
Can we drop the innocent helpless little kid carrying Skittles story? Im getting tired of hearing that.
Big_Mirg_ZHS
Posts: 2,079
Jun 30, 2012 1:19pm
Well i mean seriously what threat was trayvon and why did Z feel the need to follow him?? GZ just goes home like a normal person this doesnt happen.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Jun 30, 2012 1:24pm
It was unknown if there was a threat or not. The history of the neighborhood and the trouble with break-ins they had been having lends to the desire to determine if there was a threat or not.Big_Mirg_ZHS;1215781 wrote:Well i mean seriously what threat was trayvon and why did Z feel the need to follow him?? GZ just goes home like a normal person this doesnt happen.
Big_Mirg_ZHS
Posts: 2,079
Jun 30, 2012 1:32pm
So GZ profiled to say this kid with a hoodie on is causing problems?? And shut it with the liberal media shit. Dont bring politics into this.
Big_Mirg_ZHS
Posts: 2,079
Jun 30, 2012 1:33pm
It was pot not like he had crack. You really think marijuana means you are a bad person?ccrunner609;1215784 wrote:Skittle that night and drugs and stolen jewlery other times. Lets not let the left wing media muddy the water
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120504/Trayvon-Martin-case-He-suspended-times-caught-burglary-tool.html
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Jun 30, 2012 1:47pm
Here's the profile.....someone GZ didn't know..the hoodie is irrelevant.....he didn't know if the persons was causing problems or not. That's the point.Big_Mirg_ZHS;1215789 wrote:So GZ profiled to say this kid with a hoodie on is causing problems?? And shut it with the liberal media ****. Dont bring politics into this.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Jun 30, 2012 1:47pm
It means you are breaking the law.Big_Mirg_ZHS;1215791 wrote:It was pot not like he had crack. You really think marijuana means you are a bad person?
Big_Mirg_ZHS
Posts: 2,079
Jun 30, 2012 1:51pm
Do you speed?Con_Alma;1215795 wrote:It means you are breaking the law.
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Al Bundy
Posts: 4,180
Jun 30, 2012 1:51pm
If you are going to attack someone, don't bring skittles to a gunfight. It is stupid to attack someone when you have no idea if he may be carrying a weapon.Big_Mirg_ZHS;1215781 wrote:Well i mean seriously what threat was trayvon and why did Z feel the need to follow him?? GZ just goes home like a normal person this doesnt happen.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Jun 30, 2012 1:52pm
I have. It's illegal. I am a law breaking citizen when I do.Big_Mirg_ZHS;1215797 wrote:Do you speed?
Big_Mirg_ZHS
Posts: 2,079
Jun 30, 2012 2:35pm
Seriously it carries the same penalty as running a stop sign or speeding. Its not weak sauce it is a valid argument.ccrunner609;1215809 wrote:LOL, dont bring the weak sause in here.
Big_Mirg_ZHS
Posts: 2,079
Jun 30, 2012 2:35pm
BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE NEVER HAPPENED IT TM was WHITEccrunner609;1215811 wrote:politics and race were brought into this in a matter of one day by the media, sports figures, black activists and the president. If TM were white or GZ were black you would of NEVER heard of this.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Jun 30, 2012 2:38pm
The severity of such criminal activity hasn't been questioned. It's still illegal. That was the point being reinforced.Big_Mirg_ZHS;1215818 wrote:Seriously it carries the same penalty as running a stop sign or speeding. Its not weak sauce it is a valid argument.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Jun 30, 2012 2:39pm
No one has disputed that. There are many things in hind-sight that would have changed the outcome. The issue is did Mr. Zimmerman act illegally. We shall soon see what a jury of his peers say.Big_Mirg_ZHS;1215819 wrote:BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE NEVER HAPPENED IT TM was WHITE
rmolin73
Posts: 4,278
Jun 30, 2012 2:42pm
Ccrunner doesn't get that trust me. To him a black thug got killed and to him thats a good thing. Probably because he has the same personality traits as Zimmerman.