isadore;1157971 wrote:I think you would find the bulk of people on benefits fall into one of the three categories I listed.
we have the unemployed mostly put there by structural and cyclical unemployment, I guess you want to punish them. And of course we have alot of single mothers, we can punish them. Gosh we got Romney and his wife wanted her to stay at home while he requires these women to work.

I have volunteered helping out many of these people at food shelters. I suggest you volunteer some day, and you will see that most people there do not fall into the 3 categories that you described as 1) little kids, 2) extremely old, 3) disabled to the point that they cannot do any job.

Al Bundy;1157980 wrote:I have volunteered helping out many of these people at food shelters. I suggest you volunteer some day, and you will see that most people there do not fall into the 3 categories that you described as 1) little kids, 2) extremely old, 3) disabled to the point that they cannot do any job.

I did mine in rural area and that is exactly who I saw.

isadore;1157948 wrote:The point is that the people retain the power and have used it. The overarching control belongs to WE THE PEOPLE and their representative
gosh a ruddies is sarcastic, I thought of it as a rather innocent exclamatory phrase. I think you are a very intelligent person. Some of your beliefs are troubling to me.

I understand your point regarding were the power exists. That doesn't usurp the clarification of the title and type of government.

My beliefs may be troubling but what is gained by name calling? Can't we discuss issue without such antics?

isadore;1157916 wrote:Gosh a ruddies the Articles of Confederation Articles required a vote of all 13 states in order to amend the document. The Representatives of the People got to together and just threw the whole document out. As the People's Representatives can throw out the whole Constitution

And if some of them said no they would be on their merry way.

I know you people hate the constitution. Its been quite an obstacle on your road to tyranny. You just can't accept that 10's of millions of Americans don't want bureaucrats in Washington lording all over us. Heck the transportation secretary is calling for federal law banning talking on cell phones while driving. Ban children from working on family farms. Yeah thats what Americans want. Obama put the kibosh to that one. It would have cost him states in the midwest. But the beat will go on.

Go ahead and call a Constitutional convention. You would never get 38 states. And if you break the Union contract that requires 38, states would take their balls elsewhere. Some would be thankful for the opportunity. Face it your stuck with it.

Cleveland Buck;1157973 wrote:What about the other quotes? Any one of them individually proves you wrong, so please explain away all of them.

Quotes from the founders are like kryptonite to big government leftists.

Cleveland Buck;1157973 wrote:What about the other quotes? Any one of them individually proves you wrong, so please explain away all of them.

for all your quotes, all I have to write is consider the source. You have been shown to have supplied a totally dishonest quote. the man's opinion was exactly the opposite of what you made it out to be. He loved majority rule but you dishonestly tried to show him to believe the exact opposite. What you write, what you cite can not be trusted.

Con_Alma;1158002 wrote:I understand your point regarding were the power exists. That doesn't usurp the clarification of the title and type of government.

My beliefs may be troubling but what is gained by name calling? Can't we discuss issue without such antics?

We were and are a democratic republic, power is vested from the inception of our nation with the people. No document overpowers that truth.

majorspark;1158009 wrote:And if some of them said no they would be on their merry way.

I know you people hate the constitution. Its been quite an obstacle on your road to tyranny. You just can't accept that 10's of millions of Americans don't want bureaucrats in Washington lording all over us. Heck the transportation secretary is calling for federal law banning talking on cell phones while driving. Ban children from working on family farms. Yeah thats what Americans want. Obama put the kibosh to that one. It would have cost him states in the midwest. But the beat will go on.

Go ahead and call a Constitutional convention. You would never get 38 states. And if you break the Union contract that requires 38, states would take their balls elsewhere. Some would be thankful for the opportunity. Face it your stuck with it.

I hate the Nuremberg Race Laws the Nazis enforced, I don’t hate the Constitution. It is amusing to hear your raves. Gosh on the farm laws Obama acted like a leader in a representative democracy and followed
the will of the people, repealing the regulations. That how things work in a representative democracy. Popular Sovereignty, the will of the people.
Why would we call a ConstituItional Convention right now.

majorspark;1158011 wrote:Quotes from the founders are like kryptonite to big government leftists.

gosh I thought all my Jefferson quotes were just great. Now if I need any big government quotes, I will just go to Hamilton for those.

isadore;1158029 wrote: Now if I need any big government quotes, I will just go to Hamilton for those.

Why not just go to Obama?

isadore;1158022 wrote:for all your quotes, all I have to write is consider the source. You have been shown to have supplied a totally dishonest quote. the man's opinion was exactly the opposite of what you made it out to be. He loved majority rule but you dishonestly tried to show him to believe the exact opposite. What you write, what you cite can not be trusted.

So you give up. You always do. Because you are always wrong.

isadore;1158028 wrote:Gosh on the farm laws Obama acted like a leader in a representative democracy and followed the will of the people, repealing the regulations.

Leaders lead followers follow. He quickly backtracked in an election year because he feared it was going to cost him some states in the Midwest. A leader would take his case to the people and lead them to see the logic and reason behind his initiative. Not immediately piss down his leg and pull the plug.

isadore;1158024 wrote:We were and are a democratic republic, power is vested from the inception of our nation with the people. No document overpowers that truth.

No document has been suggested to overpower anything. Lol It doesn't change the fact that the people define their operations in the document. The most accurate descriptive title of our form of government is a Constitutional Republic.

Cleveland Buck;1158038 wrote:So you give up. You always do. Because you are always wrong.

lol you get caught in a complete misrepresentation, a purposeful lie and you try to turn it on me. That's chutzpah. Oh and I am right. And I don't make up quotes to prove it.

Al Bundy;1158032 wrote:Why not just go to Obama?

They have been using framers, not great leaders of the 21st century.

majorspark;1158051 wrote:Leaders lead followers follow. He quickly backtracked in an election year because he feared it was going to cost him some states in the Midwest. A leader would take his case to the people and lead them to see the logic and reason behind his initiative. Not immediately piss down his leg and pull the plug.

Leaders listen to the logical presentation of their constituents and act in the interests of the people they represent, in a representative democracy.

Con_Alma;1158052 wrote:No document has been suggested to overpower anything. Lol It doesn't change the fact that the people define their operations in the document. The most accurate descriptive title of our form of government is a Constitutional Republic.

No document overpowers the truth that the ultimate source of power is the people. As they announced to the world in the Preamble. And their power was explained to the world in the 2nd paragraph of the Declaration of Independence. People were sovereign. Rule by the people through their representatives, a representative democracy.

The U.S is a Constitutional Republic

"How often have you heard people refer to America as a Democracy? When was the last time that you heard America referred to as a Republic? There is a very good reason that our Pledge of Allegiance refers to our country as a Republic and there is a very good reason that our Declaration of Independence and our constitution do not even mentioned the word "democracy".


Many people are under the false impression our form of government is a democracy, or representative democracy. This is of course completely untrue. The Founders were extremely knowledgeable about the issue of democracy and feared a democracy as much as a monarchy. They understood that the only entity that can take away the people's freedom is their own government, either by being too weak to protect them from external threats or by becoming too powerful and taking over every aspect of life.
They knew very well the meaning of the word "democracy", and the history of democracies; and they were deliberately doing everything in their power to prevent having a democracy.

In a Republic, the sovereignty resides with the people themselves. In a Republic, one may act on his own or through his representatives when he chooses to solve a problem. The people have no obligation to the government; instead, the government is a servant of the people, and obliged to its owner, We the People. Many politicians have lost sight of that fact.
A Constitutional Republic has some similarities to democracy in that it uses democratic processes to elect representatives and pass new laws, etc. The critical difference lies in the fact that a Constitutional Republic has a Constitution that limits the powers of the government. It also spells out how the government is structured, creating checks on its power and balancing power between the different branches.
The goal of a Constitutional Republic was to avoid the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy but what exists in America today is a far cry from the Constitutional Republic our forefathers brought forth.
Today we have DO have a mobocracy occurring in our streets all across America. Sadly, such mobocracy or 'mob rule' was endorsed and encouraged by Sen. John McCain who praised the recent wave of pro-illegal immigration demonstrations by saying . . . "if the protesters hang tough they will succeed in forcing Congress to liberalize immigration laws. If such demonstrations continue, I think we will have a bill for the President to sign soon . . . The more debate, the more demonstrations, the more likely we will prevail.' He was of course referring to the Senate's massive illegal-alien amnesty bill S. 2611 which did in fact, pass. Was S. 2611 passed to appease the mob? If so, it is a perfect example of rule by mobocracy!
Article IV Section 4 of the Constitution states: "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion . . .
Not only is our Constitution being ignored, the exact OPPOSITE is being encourage by John McCain and seconded by ALL those who voted for S. 2611 in the Senate. If you want to preserve the Constitutional Republic you should vote out of office . . . every single senator that voted for S. 2611.
My favorite quote is by Tom Tancredo who speaks to the treasonous position of those who would promote anarchy and mobocracy in our streets. He said: "When I took the oath of office, it wasn't to my party or the President. It was to the Constitution."
However, rule by mobocracy is only a tiny part of what is happening here in America. The larger problem we are facing is related to those who would support and approve of mob rule. It is called tyranny. What is tyranny? Simply put, we are being governed by tyrants who have usurped the will of the people. Our government has become a raging bull elephant, no pun intended, and is totally out of control. We are well on the road to fascism, which was defined by Mussolini as the combining of capitalism and Communism.
There is underway . . . a betrayal of the American people by a government cabal who are bent on destroying our sovereignty in order to create a North American Union. The miscreants include many who function at the highest levels in our government. Many hold membership in the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) and the Trilateral Commission and pursue a subversive agenda. The cabal is deliberately circumventing the U.S. Congress and 'We the People' in blatant violation of our Constitution. Collectively they are committing TREASON. If you continue to believe that the illegal alien invasion is the biggest threat to America, you will never understand that there is something far more dangerous to our country called the "Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America" (SPP). As bad as the illegal alien situation is . . . you will learn that this nation is in dire peril far exceeding the illegal alien problem.
I urge you to educate yourself. If you have access to a computer you need to read what your own government has posted on their official websites such as the Whitehouse.gov, SPP.gov, State.gov and Canada.USembassy.gov. You will be aghast at the nearly complete destruction of our sovereignty, Bill of Rights, Constitution, laws, Republic, and freedoms they have ALREADY achieved. This heinous ongoing treason has been engineered by an entrenched cabal of legislators, courts, military brass, and government employees in this and prior administrations. The tyranny is being facilitated by hundreds of people embedded at all levels of the executive branch and Congress constituting a so called 'Shadow Government' who are working in concert to dismantle this country in plain sight. Their agenda was engineered by the Council on Foreign Relations(CFR) and kept secret by a deliberately silent media who work in collaboration by treating the America people like mushrooms. We are kept in the dark and fed you know what . . . mislead by their propaganda.
If you don't have a computer, get one. It is the last bastion of freedom to information and knowledge left to' We the People'. Be advised that the congress is working hard to eliminate, curtail and control your access to the internet as we speak...."

By Daneen G. Peterson, Ph.D.

Just another interpretation.

isadore;1158060 wrote:No document overpowers the truth that the ultimate source of power is the people. As they announced to the world in the Preamble. And their power was explained to the world in the 2nd paragraph of the Declaration of Independence. People were sovereign. Rule by the people through their representatives, a representative democracy.

I have never mentioned power except when responding to your mention of it. A document existing doesn't imply power. The document existing is simply a clarification of the peoples wishes. As a Constitutional Republic we seek to carry out those wishes.

isadore;1158056 wrote:Leaders listen to the logical presentation of their constituents and act in the interests of the people they represent, in a representative democracy.

Did he have town hall meetings in the rural areas of the country to hear their concerns? If Obama would have listened before he proposed it through his labor department, he would have never proposed it at all. Nope he thought he could slip one by and when the shit hit the fan in an election year he politics over ruled principal.

Con_Alma;1158061 wrote:The U.S is a Constitutional Republic

"How often have you heard people refer to America as a Democracy? When was the last time that you heard America referred to as a Republic? There is a very good reason that our Pledge of Allegiance refers to our country as a Republic and there is a very good reason that our Declaration of Independence and our constitution do not even mentioned the word "democracy".


Many people are under the false impression our form of government is a democracy, or representative democracy. This is of course completely untrue. The Founders were extremely knowledgeable about the issue of democracy and feared a democracy as much as a monarchy. They understood that the only entity that can take away the people's freedom is their own government, either by being too weak to protect them from external threats or by becoming too powerful and taking over every aspect of life.
They knew very well the meaning of the word "democracy", and the history of democracies; and they were deliberately doing everything in their power to prevent having a democracy.

In a Republic, the sovereignty resides with the people themselves. In a Republic, one may act on his own or through his representatives when he chooses to solve a problem. The people have no obligation to the government; instead, the government is a servant of the people, and obliged to its owner, We the People. Many politicians have lost sight of that fact.
A Constitutional Republic has some similarities to democracy in that it uses democratic processes to elect representatives and pass new laws, etc. The critical difference lies in the fact that a Constitutional Republic has a Constitution that limits the powers of the government. It also spells out how the government is structured, creating checks on its power and balancing power between the different branches.
The goal of a Constitutional Republic was to avoid the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy but what exists in America today is a far cry from the Constitutional Republic our forefathers brought forth.
Today we have DO have a mobocracy occurring in our streets all across America. Sadly, such mobocracy or 'mob rule' was endorsed and encouraged by Sen. John McCain who praised the recent wave of pro-illegal immigration demonstrations by saying . . . "if the protesters hang tough they will succeed in forcing Congress to liberalize immigration laws. If such demonstrations continue, I think we will have a bill for the President to sign soon . . . The more debate, the more demonstrations, the more likely we will prevail.' He was of course referring to the Senate's massive illegal-alien amnesty bill S. 2611 which did in fact, pass. Was S. 2611 passed to appease the mob? If so, it is a perfect example of rule by mobocracy!
Article IV Section 4 of the Constitution states: "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion . . .
Not only is our Constitution being ignored, the exact OPPOSITE is being encourage by John McCain and seconded by ALL those who voted for S. 2611 in the Senate. If you want to preserve the Constitutional Republic you should vote out of office . . . every single senator that voted for S. 2611.
My favorite quote is by Tom Tancredo who speaks to the treasonous position of those who would promote anarchy and mobocracy in our streets. He said: "When I took the oath of office, it wasn't to my party or the President. It was to the Constitution."
However, rule by mobocracy is only a tiny part of what is happening here in America. The larger problem we are facing is related to those who would support and approve of mob rule. It is called tyranny. What is tyranny? Simply put, we are being governed by tyrants who have usurped the will of the people. Our government has become a raging bull elephant, no pun intended, and is totally out of control. We are well on the road to fascism, which was defined by Mussolini as the combining of capitalism and Communism.
There is underway . . . a betrayal of the American people by a government cabal who are bent on destroying our sovereignty in order to create a North American Union. The miscreants include many who function at the highest levels in our government. Many hold membership in the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) and the Trilateral Commission and pursue a subversive agenda. The cabal is deliberately circumventing the U.S. Congress and 'We the People' in blatant violation of our Constitution. Collectively they are committing TREASON. If you continue to believe that the illegal alien invasion is the biggest threat to America, you will never understand that there is something far more dangerous to our country called the "Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America" (SPP). As bad as the illegal alien situation is . . . you will learn that this nation is in dire peril far exceeding the illegal alien problem.
I urge you to educate yourself. If you have access to a computer you need to read what your own government has posted on their official websites such as the Whitehouse.gov,SPP.gov, State.gov and Canada.USembassy.gov. You will be aghast at the nearly complete destruction of our sovereignty, Bill of Rights, Constitution, laws, Republic, and freedoms they have ALREADY achieved. This heinous ongoing treason has been engineered by an entrenched cabal of legislators, courts, military brass, and government employees in this and prior administrations. The tyranny is being facilitated by hundreds of people embedded at all levels of the executive branch and Congress constituting a so called 'Shadow Government' who are working in concert to dismantle this country in plain sight. Their agenda was engineered by the Council on Foreign Relations(CFR) and kept secret by a deliberately silent media who work in collaboration by treating the America people like mushrooms. We are kept in the dark and fed you know what . . . mislead by their propaganda.
If you don't have a computer, get one. It is the last bastion of freedom to information and knowledge left to' We the People'. Be advised that the congress is working hard to eliminate, curtail and control your access to the internet as we speak...."

By Daneen G. Peterson, Ph.D.

Just another interpretation.

gosh Con I thought you actually read these threads, my mistake. The little man, DWC brought this up on 207# on the thread. did you look at the site and check out Daneen, PHD. You used to at least try to get someone with a little acedemic standing, now you have gone completely over the edge. To quote myself from 208# on the thread

isadore wrote:1. The writer is Daneen Peterson, PHD, Sounds good right, she is a PHD in “behavioral science research methodology and statistics. And now at this far right flake site

http://www.unitedpatriotsofamerica.com/Home/Articles/Params/arcticlecategory/1730/default.aspx
With their ravings about the coming North American Union

Con_Alma;1158062 wrote:I have never mentioned power except when responding to your mention of it. A document existing doesn't imply power. The document existing is simply a clarification of the peoples wishes. As a Constitutional Republic we seek to carry out those wishes.

"the people's wishes", the sovereign people acting through their representatives in a representative democracy, the overarching definitive characteristic of American government.

majorspark;1158086 wrote:Did he have town hall meetings in the rural areas of the country to hear their concerns? If Obama would have listened before he proposed it through his labor department, he would have never proposed it at all. Nope he thought he could slip one by and when the **** hit the fan in an election year he politics over ruled principal.

you do know there are all kinds of ways for people to communicate with their government. Proposed by the department, discussed with the people who pointed out the problem with it and dropped. People acting within our representative democracy gave their input and the suggested regulations were dropped.

isadore;1158029 wrote:gosh I thought all my Jefferson quotes were just great.

The quotes were great. Democracy and majority rule are part of our constitutional republic. The constitution defines the rules. Some things require super majorities. Governmental power is to be divided and pitted against itself. The three co-equal branches with the federal government and that federal power against the several states powers that form this constitutional republic. The constitution lays out which governmental authorities holds sovereign power and how it will be used, where it will be used, and by whom it will be used and what level of governance gets to use it and what instance. Some where given to the feds others restricted of the states and the remaining power defaults to the states and people (local government). Confirmed by the pesky 10th amendment.



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majorspark;1158184 wrote:The quotes were great. Democracy and majority rule are part of our constitutional republic. The constitution defines the rules. Some things require super majorities. Governmental power is to be divided and pitted against itself. The three co-equal branches with the federal government and that federal power against the several states powers that form this constitutional republic. The constitution lays out which governmental authorities holds sovereign power and how it will be used, where it will be used, and by whom it will be used and what level of governance gets to use it and what instance. Some where given to the feds others restricted of the states and the remaining power defaults to the states and people (local government). Confirmed by the pesky 10th amendment.



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No, popular sovereignty precedes the creation of the Constitution. The popular will acting through its elected representatives created the Constitution. WE THE PEOPLE ….. Do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. The People are sovereign not the government. And if they wish, they can do away with any government institution or rule including “the pesky 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Amendment.” They had their representative abolish the Articles of Confederation which allowed the states to be too powerful. As it should be in a representative democracy when a government institution does not serve the people.