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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Apr 25, 2012 10:31am
Glad they do....although it has little to do or impact on how I feel.sleeper;1152311 wrote:People feel the same way when they join a cult. The desire trespasses the logical reason of someone's mind and then the mind blindly follows the cult leader. The cult leader gives them hope, especially after the cult leader drains the entire person's intellectual and financial wealth, and then they have nothing.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Apr 25, 2012 10:31am
Why would a passage justify your belief?sleeper;1152316 wrote:I'm thinking of bringing out the Illiad and quoting random passages to justify my belief. What a joke.
That's kind of interesting.
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sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Apr 25, 2012 10:40am
See Skyhook's posts.Con_Alma;1152342 wrote:Why would a passage justify your belief?
That's kind of interesting.
How useless would this debate be if I started posting quotes from Harry Potter as justification for the belief in Wizards?
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sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Apr 25, 2012 10:41am
Why would it? You've already said you don't use logic or reason to justify your belief. They've already won.Con_Alma;1152340 wrote:Glad they do....although it has little to do or impact on how I feel.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Apr 25, 2012 10:42am
It wouldn't. I was agreeing.sleeper;1152352 wrote:Why would it? You've already said you don't use logic or reason to justify your belief. They've already won.
I am sorry I didn't no it was a win /lose effort.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Apr 25, 2012 10:44am
I read skyhook's posts as reference for better explaining his belief. I didn't think it was the reason he had such belief. I would like to see your passages from Illiad ...especially if they are "random". It might tie in nicely.sleeper;1152351 wrote:See Skyhook's posts.
How useless would this debate be if I started posting quotes from Harry Potter as justification for the belief in Wizards?
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Apr 25, 2012 10:45am
Justified by Faith through GraceSkyhook79;1152315 wrote:You can't earn you way to heaven, it is by Grace we are saved.
...
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sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Apr 25, 2012 10:55am
[LEFT]"and its devastation, which put pains thousandfold upon the Achaians,Con_Alma;1152357 wrote:I read skyhook's posts as reference for better explaining his belief. I didn't think it was the reason he had such belief. I would like to see your passages from Illiad ...especially if they are "random". It might tie in nicely.
hurled in their multitudes to the house of Hades strong souls
of heroes, but gave their bodies to be the delicate feasting
of dogs, of all birds, and the will of Zeus was accomplished"
"Thetis answered him then letting the tears fall: 'Ah me,
my child, your birth was bitterness. Why did I raise you?
If only you could sit by your ships untroubled, not weeping,
since indeed your lifetime is to be short, of no length.
Now it has befallen that your life must be brief and bitter
beyond all men's. To a bad destiny I bore you in my chambers.' (1.413-418)"
[/LEFT]
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Apr 25, 2012 10:57am
I guess it's not random now since I requested one. Oh well. I'm glad you obliged.sleeper;1152368 wrote:[LEFT]"and its devastation, which put pains thousandfold upon the Achaians,
hurled in their multitudes to the house of Hades strong souls
of heroes, but gave their bodies to be the delicate feasting
of dogs, of all birds, and the will of Zeus was accomplished"
"Thetis answered him then letting the tears fall: 'Ah me,
my child, your birth was bitterness. Why did I raise you?
If only you could sit by your ships untroubled, not weeping,
since indeed your lifetime is to be short, of no length.
Now it has befallen that your life must be brief and bitter
beyond all men's. To a bad destiny I bore you in my chambers.' (1.413-418)"
[/LEFT]
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sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Apr 25, 2012 10:58am
I literally just pulled a random quote. The great thing about the Illiad, is there are people who actually believe its correct.
Apparently beliefs are on the same level as facts in your world. Pretty delusional.
Apparently beliefs are on the same level as facts in your world. Pretty delusional.
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enigmaax
Posts: 4,511
Apr 25, 2012 10:59am
Well, I mean, the Trojan War did happen. So everything else in it must be true.sleeper;1152373 wrote:I literally just pulled a random quote. The great thing about the Illiad, is there are people who actually believe its correct.
Apparently beliefs are on the same level as facts in your world. Pretty delusional.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Apr 25, 2012 11:01am
I can't be more clear. It's beyond apparent. I have definitively stated for you it is by faith and faith alone. You don't have to surmise or guess the basis of me taking my position.sleeper;1152373 wrote:I literally just pulled a random quote. The great thing about the Illiad, is there are people who actually believe its correct.
Apparently beliefs are on the same level as facts in your world. Pretty delusional.
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sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Apr 25, 2012 11:07am
But faith and fact are different. Beliefs are not factual, almost by definition.Con_Alma;1152377 wrote:I can't be more clear. It's beyond apparent. I have definitively stated for you it is by faith and faith alone. You don't have to surmise or guess the basis of me taking my position.
Why do you take everything personal? I'm calling out faith as being an illogical cop out and you always make it about yourself. I don't care about your beliefs, I care about beliefs in the aggregate. They aren't reality, they aren't correct, they aren't admirable, they are a crock of shit.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Apr 25, 2012 11:13am
sleeper;1152385 wrote:But faith and fact are different. Beliefs are not factual, almost by definition.
Why do you take everything personal? I'm calling out faith as being an illogical cop out and you always make it about yourself. I don't care about your beliefs, I care about beliefs in the aggregate. They aren't reality, they aren't correct, they aren't admirable, they are a crock of ****.
Uhhhh, I thought I was agreeing that faith and fact are different.
I don't take anything personal but can only speak from a personal perspective. I can't and don't try to speak for the aggregate.
I disagree that faith isn't reality. Faith truly is a human element of belief, of trust, of loyalty and of allegiance. Those are very much real and do not simply exist in a religious realm.
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sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Apr 25, 2012 11:14am
Faith can be attached to anything. If I have faith in unicorns, that doesn't make unicorns reality.
Simple as that.
Simple as that.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Apr 25, 2012 11:16am
I thought I agreed with you on that principle...over and over again. It is not faith that makes something a reality. It is the belief that it is real that creates the faith in someone.sleeper;1152391 wrote:Faith can be attached to anything. If I have faith in unicorns, that doesn't make unicorns reality.
Simple as that.
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sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Apr 25, 2012 11:24am
The belief is meaningless. If its real in someone, then are experiencing some form of hallucination or dementia and should seek medical attention.Con_Alma;1152394 wrote:I thought I agreed with you on that principle...over and over again. It is not faith that makes something a reality. It is the belief that it is real that creates the faith in someone.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Apr 25, 2012 11:26am
Belief is meaningless to you. It is the root for others. That has been the whole point of the discussion.sleeper;1152406 wrote:The belief is meaningless. If its real in someone, then are experiencing some form of hallucination or dementia and should seek medical attention.
You do not rely upon it while others do.
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sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Apr 25, 2012 11:31am
If I believe that the Civil War did not happen, is that belief meaningful?Con_Alma;1152410 wrote:Belief is meaningless to you. It is the root for others. That has been the whole point of the discussion.
You do not rely upon it while others do.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Apr 25, 2012 11:33am
To me, it is not. ...just as I don't expect my beliefs to be "meaningful" to you.sleeper;1152412 wrote:If I believe that the Civil War did not happen, is that belief meaningful?
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sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Apr 25, 2012 11:37am
But its okay for me to believe the Civil War did not exist?Con_Alma;1152414 wrote:To me, it is not. ...just as I don't expect my beliefs to be "meaningful" to you.
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sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Apr 25, 2012 11:38am
This is such a silly discussion. Just because you believe something doesn't mean it happened. It doesn't mean its real. If its real to you, seek professional medical attention.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Apr 25, 2012 11:40am
What do you mean by O.K.?sleeper;1152417 wrote:But its okay for me to believe the Civil War did not exist?
You can believe what every it is you want. You cant restrict nor stop the human mind and spirit from things.
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Apr 25, 2012 11:41am
Didn't we already agree that belief doesn't make things real?sleeper;1152418 wrote:This is such a silly discussion. Just because you believe something doesn't mean it happened. It doesn't mean its real. If its real to you, seek professional medical attention.
Belief is a result not the action of creating realism.
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sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Apr 25, 2012 11:42am
Exactly. So believing the Christ exists or that there is a Heaven, or that the Bible is real, etc. does not make these things real. Period.