2kool4skool;1149523 wrote:What specifically happened that caused you to KNOW Jesus is the Messiah? You're speaking in generalities and deflecting the question.

That is the Con_Alma way. IMO, the best poster on this site, bar none.

2kool4skool;1149523 wrote:What specifically happened that caused you to KNOW Jesus is the Messiah? You're speaking in generalities and deflecting the question.

Prayer, continued study of the Holy Scriptures, God's grace and the presence of the Holy Spirit.

sleeper;1149525 wrote:I am open. If anything, I'm the type of person who can be convinced, when presented with solid evidence and rationality, to be moved into a certain belief system.

I fail to see how a ghost, who's never been proven, can never be proven, and never will be proven, has any effect on moving me. Why should I be punished by God when he's not strong enough to convince me he exists? Why doesn't he try harder? Why is your God so weak that a mere human can defy him with simple logical games?

God is strong enough to convince you but He has chosen to give you the ability to choose for yourself. It wouldn't be your choice if he "tried harder". God isn't weak. What you believe is defying through logic is simply rejecting him which he has permitted you to do through choice.

Con_Alma;1149529 wrote:God is strong enough to convince you but He has chosen to give you the ability to choose for yourself. It wouldn't be your choice if he "tried harder". God isn't weak. What you believe is defying through logic is simply rejecting him which he has permitted you to do through choice.

Great. When I die, after living my life to the fullest held back by no false beliefs that were never proven, I can't wait to have a talk with God on his weakness. I will simply explain to him that he was not strong enough to convince me, cited lack of evidence and my inability to associate myself with flawed logic.

God is most definitely weak and since this is a statement of fact, like your entire belief system, I can use the faith cop out instead of having to prove it with logic and evidence.

Can God create a rock that He himself cannot move?

sleeper;1149535 wrote:Great. When I die, after living my life to the fullest held back by no false beliefs that were never proven, I can't wait to have a talk with God on his weakness. I will simply explain to him that he was not strong enough to convince me, cited lack of evidence and my inability to associate myself with flawed logic.

God is most definitely weak and since this is a statement of fact, like your entire belief system, I can use the faith cop out instead of having to prove it with logic and evidence.

You don't have to prove anything.

God isn't too weak to convince you? What makes you believe he wants to convince you? He wants you to decide for yourself.

Why wait until you die to have this talk with God? Have it now.

Con_Alma;1149527 wrote:Prayer, continued study of the Holy Scriptures, God's grace and the presence of the Holy Spirit.

How many religion's scriptures have you read? What was it that separated the New Testament from the others?

sleeper;1149541 wrote:Can God create a rock that He himself cannot move?

I don't have any idea.

Contradictions are by definition unable to be actualized (the first law of logic dictates that A cannot be both A and none A at the same time and the same way), so what good can it do to elevate contradictions to a supposed dignity by the spurious assertion that God can actualize them? In other words, omnipotence is in no way diminished when the most perfect Doer is said to not do that which is intrinsically undoable. Since the premise of the argument presented employs the fallacy of special pleading (an informal fallacy) that contradicts the first law of logic (a formal fallacy), the question cannot be said to be valid.

2kool4skool;1149543 wrote:How many religion's scriptures have you read? What was it that separated the New Testament from the others?

I have not read any religious scriptures in their entirety with the exception of The Bible.

Con_Alma;1149542 wrote:You don't have to prove anything.

God isn't too weak to convince you? What makes you believe he wants to convince you? He wants you to decide for yourself.

Why wait until you die to have this talk with God? Have it now.

To answer your first question, because God loves me and wants me to live with him in heaven for eternal happiness. Why would you send someone you love to the depths of Hell for eternity? He should want me to follow him.

I've had the talk, no response. In fact, there never has been and never will be a response. The Biblical God doesn't exist, this should be pretty widely known knowledge at this point.

Con_Alma;1149545 wrote:I don't have any idea.

Contradictions are by definition unable to be actualized (the first law of logic dictates that A cannot be both A and none A at the same time and the same way), so what good can it do to elevate contradictions to a supposed dignity by the spurious assertion that God can actualize them? In other words, omnipotence is in no way diminished when the most perfect Doer is said to not do that which is intrinsically undoable. Since the premise of the argument presented employs the fallacy of special pleading (an informal fallacy) that contradicts the first law of logic (a formal fallacy), the question cannot be said to be valid.

/Con_Alma'd

I don't know how you can make a question seem invalid. I suppose we can chalk this up to another logical loophole used to justify a belief. This is how a cult functions by the way.

sleeper;1149547 wrote:To answer your first question, because God loves me and wants me to live with him in heaven for eternal happiness. Why would you send someone you love to the depths of Hell for eternity? He should want me to follow him.

I've had the talk, no response. In fact, there never has been and never will be a response. The Biblical God doesn't exist, this should be pretty widely known knowledge at this point.

He does want you to follow Him, but if he made you, you wouldn't be following him for good purpose but rather because you were being forced to. He wants you to follow him out of love.

Clearly there hasn't been a response or you would believe. If it were a response that's required for your belief then it wouldn't take much faith at all would it?

sleeper;1149551 wrote:/Con_Alma'd

I don't know how you can make a question seem invalid. I suppose we can chalk this up to another logical loophole used to justify a belief. This is how a cult functions by the way.

You're right in that you don't know.

According to Russell's theory of incompletes, an object that does not rationally exist in and of itself (ala, a square circle) cannot be correctly placed in a proposition in the sentential calculus. What that means is that irrational objects cannot be rationally discussed. A God that can will against his will (irrational object that violates the definition of "will"), exist and not exist, or create a rock so big that an omnipotent being cannot pick it up are all examples of objects that are irrational and therefore, cannot rationally be used by an atheist to argue against omnipotence.

2kool4skool;1149543 wrote:How many religion's scriptures have you read? What was it that separated the New Testament from the others?

That's a good one!

I haven't read it, but own it...the Koran (or Quran or Qur'an or however else it can be spelled). I have also done my fair share of research on Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. I guess I could claim I've read Judaism's holy text since it is the Old Testament, or as they call it, the Hebrew Bible.

I think there is GREAT value in reading other scriptures. I also think that more people of different professing "beliefs" or "faiths" should do the same.

Con_Alma;1149553 wrote:He does want you to follow Him, but if he made you, you wouldn't be following him for good purpose but rather because you were being forced to. He wants you to follow him out of love.

Clearly there hasn't been a response or you would believe. If it were a response that's required for your belief then it wouldn't take much faith at all would it?

You don't find it at all disingenuous that God wants me to reject all rationality and rely solely on faith in order for me to follow him. Why does God have to have it rely on faith rather than a logical conclusion derived from high correlated evidence?

Con_Alma;1149546 wrote:I have not read any religious scriptures in their entirety with the exception of The Bible.

Sounds like you've done some thorough research.

Con_Alma;1149554 wrote:You're right in that you don't know.

According to Russell's theory of incompletes, an object that does not rationally exist in and of itself (ala, a square circle) cannot be correctly placed in a proposition in the sentential calculus. What that means is that irrational objects cannot be rationally discussed. A God that can will against his will (irrational object that violates the definition of "will"), exist and not exist, or create a rock so big that an omnipotent being cannot pick it up are all examples of objects that are irrational and therefore, cannot rationally be used by an atheist to argue against omnipotence.

But I thought God is supernatural and does not have to follow laws of Nature like the laws of conservation of mass. Don't you find the leap of saying a supernatural being created everything to the leap of saying that another supernatural being created God.

You can't have it both ways, either God has to follow the rules of rationality or he doesn't. If he doesn't, then the question is valid because I am asking that question of a being that does not follow our natural laws.

sleeper;1149557 wrote:You don't find it at all disingenuous that God wants me to reject all rationality and rely solely on faith in order for me to follow him. Why does God have to have it rely on faith rather than a logical conclusion derived from high correlated evidence?

I do not find it disingenuous for it is He that created all things inclusive of rationality and faith. He doesn't have to have eternal life be faith based but he chose for t to be. It it were based on rationality and logic a choice would not then exist. He want you to have a choice.

sleeper;1149559 wrote:But I thought God is supernatural and does not have to follow laws of Nature like the laws of conservation of mass. Don't you find the leap of saying a supernatural being created everything to the leap of saying that another supernatural being created God.

You can't have it both ways, either God has to follow the rules of rationality or he doesn't. If he doesn't, then the question is valid because I am asking that question of a being that does not follow our natural laws.

He doesn't have to follow laws of nature. Our understanding when comes to explaining processes such as inhuman concepts does.

God doesn't have to follow such rules. We do if it is rationality that you are relying upon.

2kool4skool;1149558 wrote:Sounds like you've done some thorough research.

I sense your sarcasm but it was not research that I stated was my foundation of belief. You asked what I based my faith on and I shared with you what it was.

That may not be what you should base such a decision on but then again you aren't.

Con_Alma;1149560 wrote:I do not find it disingenuous for it is He that created all things inclusive of rationality and faith. He doesn't have to have eternal life be faith based but he chose for t to be. It it were based on rationality and logic a choice would not then exist. He want you to have a choice.

Con_Alma;1149561 wrote:He doesn't have to follow laws of nature. Our understanding when comes to explaining processes such as inhuman concepts does.

God doesn't have to follow such rules. We do if it is rationality that you are relying upon.

Sorry Con_Alma, but I believe both of these statements are cop outs. You are creating rules to prevent God from having to answer to the irrationality and conflicting ideals of your beliefs. This is unfair and dishonest way to discuss something when the rules will always be changed and part of the frustration shared by many of my atheistic brethren.

sleeper;1149541 wrote:Can God create a rock that He himself cannot move?

Post Author: Bill Pratt
This is a common question that is asked by those who misunderstand the nature of God’s omnipotence. Another humorous way of asking this question is: Can God make a sandwich so big he can’t eat it? (I owe that jewel to my friend Greg).
When Christians claim that God is omnipotent (all-powerful), they do not mean that he can do anything. We mean that God can do anything that is logically possible. God’s omnipotence exists in concert with all of his other attributes, not as a stand-alone attribute. Therefore, when we don’t understand the other attributes of God, we get stumped by questions like this. Here is a brief list of some things God cannot do, based on his other attributes:

1. cease to exist – a being whose very nature is being cannot cease to be; that’s logically impossible
2. love evil – a being who is all-good cannot love evil; that’s logically impossible
3. make a copy of himself – God is infinite, and two infinite beings cannot exist; that’s logically impossible
4. change his nature - an unchanging (immutable) being cannot change; that’s logically impossible

So why can’t he make a rock so big he can’t lift it? Simple. God is infinite, and there can only be one infinite being (see number 3 above). If there were two infinite beings, then neither would really be infinite because they would each be limited by the other. But an infinite being has no limits, so they can’t both be infinite.
If a rock is created that cannot be moved by an infinite being, then that rock must be infinite. But if we have an infinite being and an infinite rock, we have two infinite beings. That is, as we said a moment ago, a logical impossibility.
Once we understand what infinity means (without limit) and once we understand that God cannot violate the laws of logic (which are based on his own nature), then we can easily understand how God cannot make a rock so big he can’t lift it. It’s like asking on

With all given knowledge, it is illogical for matter to be created. So God cannot do that.

I win again. How does it feel?

This is just my point of view but even early christians did not fully believe the bible accounts of creation for example to be 100% literal. Many of the early church fathers(pre council of nicea) did not really think everything was made in 7 24 hour days.

I personally do not think the Bible is the absolute word of God. I believe it is inspired by God and written by men for men and therefore it is mans view of life during that time. Hence a lot of the laws in the Old Testament being more of a story on the culture and laws of that exact culture at that exact time.

I do believe in Jesus and I am a christian. It is my understanding that in order to get into Heaven and be with Christ that really all you need to is love God and Christ, accept him as your savior and treat people well. For those are the two great commandments that Christ talked about. I believe the Bible to be more of a Guide than a Rulebook.

I also do not believe that God has a plan for all of us. When people die, I do not believe it was because God planned it that way. I believe God gave humans the ability to create miracles(create cures for diseases, build new technology that saves lives) and God also gave us the ability to destroy ourselves. I believe that God is pretty much hands off and our lives are strictly meant to be an exercise in Free Will and Faith. I believe in Science also.

I know I may not fit into what traditional christianity wants me to believe but I feel that my Faith and belief in Christ is real. I spent 8 years of my life being an ardent atheist and studying all the flaws in the Bible and in all the Different religions and if you want to look, they are easy to find. I also understand that from a purely Scientific/Empirical point of view, that belief in God is hard to imagine or rationalize. I found my faith through my own means and that is why I feel so strongly about it. Which is what I believe Christ and God would want from all of us.

There is a lot of Atheism 101 in this thread which is really not that hard to debate if you actually take a few minutes and research the answers for yourself.

pmoney25;1149634 wrote:This is just my point of view but even early christians did not fully believe the bible accounts of creation for example to be 100% literal. Many of the early church fathers(pre council of nicea) did not really think everything was made in 7 24 hour days.

I personally do not think the Bible is the absolute word of God. I believe it is inspired by God and written by men for men and therefore it is mans view of life during that time. Hence a lot of the laws in the Old Testament being more of a story on the culture and laws of that exact culture at that exact time.

I do believe in Jesus and I am a christian. It is my understanding that in order to get into Heaven and be with Christ that really all you need to is love God and Christ, accept him as your savior and treat people well. For those are the two great commandments that Christ talked about. I believe the Bible to be more of a Guide than a Rulebook.

I also do not believe that God has a plan for all of us. When people die, I do not believe it was because God planned it that way. I believe God gave humans the ability to create miracles(create cures for diseases, build new technology that saves lives) and God also gave us the ability to destroy ourselves. I believe that God is pretty much hands off and our lives are strictly meant to be an exercise in Free Will and Faith. I believe in Science also.

I know I may not fit into what traditional christianity wants me to believe but I feel that my Faith and belief in Christ is real. I spent 8 years of my life being an ardent atheist and studying all the flaws in the Bible and in all the Different religions and if you want to look, they are easy to find. I also understand that from a purely Scientific/Empirical point of view, that belief in God is hard to imagine or rationalize. I found my faith through my own means and that is why I feel so strongly about it. Which is what I believe Christ and God would want from all of us.

There is a lot of Atheism 101 in this thread which is really not that hard to debate if you actually take a few minutes and research the answers for yourself.

That is at the very heart of being a Christian. If you do those 2 things all other things will soon follow.

"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" Luke 10:27