sleeper;1142810 wrote:I'd agree except believers think what they believe is the truth and it isn't. It's never been proven, its fraud; intellectual fraud, and they only place religious belief should be used is in your own home. Keep it out of the government and make churches, like all other business, pay taxes.

I'll agree with some of this/ or what you're trying to portray. This is my truth. Like I said before, it's not my job to make a believer out of you. You need to believe it for yourself. Really all I can do is answer questions or point you in the right direction, if you want to be pointed. It's one of those "you can't help those who don't want to be helped."

I've never forced my beliefs as truth besides MY OWN truth. I attend church to converse with those who have a same personal truth. I'd never join a missionary or something like that because forcing my beliefs on you isn't the same thing as us having the same beliefs, so to me by shoving my beliefs down others' throats is what makes it artificial. In this manner, you haven't really believed anything have you?

bigkahuna;1143023 wrote:I'll agree with some of this/ or what you're trying to portray. This is my truth. Like I said before, it's not my job to make a believer out of you. You need to believe it for yourself. Really all I can do is answer questions or point you in the right direction, if you want to be pointed. It's one of those "you can't help those who don't want to be helped."

I've never forced my beliefs as truth besides MY OWN truth. I attend church to converse with those who have a same personal truth. I'd never join a missionary or something like that because forcing my beliefs on you isn't the same thing as us having the same beliefs, so to me by shoving my beliefs down others' throats is what makes it artificial. In this manner, you haven't really believed anything have you?

Missionaries do not force anything down people's throat. At least the ones I have been associated with don't. Many times they are there to provide support to people by helping them build housing,get clean water and help them develop sustainable food sources. They certainly share the Gospel with them and present them with their Faith and the God they believe in as they should.

Skyhook79;1143039 wrote:Missionaries do not force anything down people's throat. At least the ones I have been associated with don't. Many times they are there to provide support to people by helping them build housing,get clean water and help them develop sustainable food sources. They certainly share the Gospel with them and present them with their Faith and the God they believe in as they should.

That's my point though. Everything you said before that is fine. However, you can't enlighten those who do not wish to be enlightened.

Skyhook79;1143039 wrote:Missionaries do not force anything down people's throat....They certainly share the Gospel with them and present them with their Faith and the God they believe in as they should.

They don't force things down people's throat, yet they share the gospel. Failhook strikes again

bigkahuna;1143040 wrote:That's my point though. Everything you said before that is fine. However, you can't enlighten those who do not wish to be enlightened.

Doesn't mean you don't tell them about Jesus.


[h=3]Matthew 28:16-20[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[h=5]The Great Commission[/h] [SUP]16[/SUP] Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. [SUP]17[/SUP] When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. [SUP]18[/SUP] Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [SUP]19[/SUP] Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20[/SUP] and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

I just have a problem with this...

Missionary: Let me tell you about Jesus

Random: No Thanks

Missionary: But,

It's just my opinion that one must want to be found before he can be; in this sense I mean. If they don't want, then don't force.

Skyhook79;1143100 wrote:Doesn't mean you don't tell them about Jesus.

Yes, it does

bigkahuna;1143153 wrote:I just have a problem with this...

Missionary: Let me tell you about Jesus

Random: No Thanks

Missionary: But,

It's just my opinion that one must want to be found before he can be; in this sense I mean. If they don't want, then don't force.

Most missionaries are in places that have never heard of the Gospel or of Jesus because their Govt's do not allow it. If someone doesn't want to hear about Jesus that is their choice and I have never talked to a missionary where the scenario you stated has happened.

Jehovah's Witnessess are the worst. They never listen until you get pissed off.

Skyhook79;1143170 wrote:Most missionaries are in places that have never heard of the Gospel or of Jesus because their Govt's do not allow it. If someone doesn't want to hear about Jesus that is their choice and I have never talked to a missionary where the scenario you stated has happened.

Maybe it's just a common misconception then. I know that with my sect regardless of location, we are pushy by nature. I personally don't approve of it.

Skyhook79;1142925 wrote: 2 Corinthians 9:7:
[INDENT]Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
[/INDENT]

Austin 3:16
[INDENT]I just whipped your ass.
[/INDENT]

Skyhook79;1143170 wrote:Most missionaries are in places that have never heard of the Gospel or of Jesus because their Govt's do not allow it. If someone doesn't want to hear about Jesus that is their choice and I have never talked to a missionary where the scenario you stated has happened.

Most missionaries are not in places "that have never heard of the Gospel or of Jesus." Not true.

Most missionaries live in the United States. If the "churches" did their jobs...that is. A missionary should be anyone who professes a belief in Jesus Christ (or of their professed deity). There is no specific location of a missionary OR a specific job. I would also venture to say that MOST places on this planet have heard of Jesus. The places that haven't are in tribal areas in the jungles or other similar locations -- heck, they still discover new people groups every year that no one knew about, it seems.

I would venture to agree with you that missionaries do MUCH more than just proselytizing. Unfortunately, I think they could also do more. My alma mater produced a lot of missionaries. They didn't work with them to do ANYTHING else. Why not have a health degree to spread knowledge about health? Why not be an education major as well to educate some of these other places? There may be some building or water wells being done, but that money is always (usually) raised by donations anyway. Why not get some other practical work-related skills?

GoChiefs;1143212 wrote:Austin 3:16[INDENT]I just whipped your ass.
[/INDENT]

Reps.

OSH;1143243 wrote:Most missionaries are not in places "that have never heard of the Gospel or of Jesus." Not true.

Most missionaries live in the United States. If the "churches" did their jobs...that is. A missionary should be anyone who professes a belief in Jesus Christ (or of their professed deity). There is no specific location of a missionary OR a specific job. I would also venture to say that MOST places on this planet have heard of Jesus. The places that haven't are in tribal areas in the jungles or other similar locations -- heck, they still discover new people groups every year that no one knew about, it seems.

I would venture to agree with you that missionaries do MUCH more than just proselytizing. Unfortunately, I think they could also do more. My alma mater produced a lot of missionaries. They didn't work with them to do ANYTHING else. Why not have a health degree to spread knowledge about health? Why not be an education major as well to educate some of these other places? There may be some building or water wells being done, but that money is always (usually) raised by donations anyway. Why not get some other practical work-related skills?



Reps.

http://www.electrifying-mission-trips.org/What-does-a-Missionary-Do.html

http://www.electrifying-mission-trips.org/

http://abcnews.go.com/International/jessica-buchanan-missionary-loves-africa/story?id=15439390#.T4gkf83gono

http://china.myadventures.org/?filename=what-is-a-missionary

http://www.persecution.com/public/restrictednations.aspx?clickfrom=bWFpbl9tZW51

I could post more but most of them do their work in other cultures. I agree that every Christian should share the gospel where ever they are. Most people in the USA have heard of Jesus but many have not in other cultures and that was my point. I really do not understand your point that the missionaries should do more and teach them practical skills. The links I provided and the missionaries i have had direct involvement in do just that. We are always looking for more people to step and do this work if you have ideas why not put them to use in the mission field?

Skyhook79;1143267 wrote:I could post more but most of them do their work in other cultures. I agree that every Christian should share the gospel where ever they are. Most people in the USA have heard of Jesus but many have not in other cultures and that was my point. I really do not understand your point that the missionaries should do more and teach them practical skills. The links I provided and the missionaries i have had direct involvement in do just that. We are always looking for more people to step and do this work if you have ideas why not put them to use in the mission field?

I know what missionaries do. I also know what church workers do.

I said what I meant about "practical skills." If we are sending people to "proclaim the good news" to Africa, why not do more? I know there are some that do. But my alma mater was a big producer of missionaries and ministers (one of which I graduated with). The problem is: we pay ministers to lead a single church and not much else. Most missionaries that came from my alma mater (many of my friends) didn't graduate with anything but a degree in missions or Bible/Theology.

Why not also have them study education? Why not also have them study nursing? Why not have them do stuff like that. Missionaries will adapt and do different things while in the mission field...but, that doesn't mean they are doing all the right things. There could be so much done by education majors going into these areas. There could be so much done by nurses going into these other countries.

I know, I know...there are those medical missionaries. But that's not the majority of missionaries. That's also not typically a long-term trip. On the Easter Sunday service, my former church's pastor told a story about how 8 or so of his friends went to a missions trip in Vietnam. They raise the money to go ($3,000 or something) while also buying some smaller motorcycles to drive around Vietnam while they are there. When they leave, the motorcycles are given to churches while there. They got over there and were told they couldn't do any "Christian things." They were refused to do any missions work...which included giving their motorcycles away.

That's lousy. They should've known ahead of time. Not practical. Waste of money. Maybe there is more to the story...but in my opinion, just raise the money and DONATE it if you really want to help. That $3,000 would've went so much farther had they just given it to the Vietnamese people...and so wouldn't the motorcycle.

OSH;1143278 wrote:I know what missionaries do. I also know what church workers do.

I said what I meant about "practical skills." If we are sending people to "proclaim the good news" to Africa, why not do more? I know there are some that do. But my alma mater was a big producer of missionaries and ministers (one of which I graduated with). The problem is: we pay ministers to lead a single church and not much else. Most missionaries that came from my alma mater (many of my friends) didn't graduate with anything but a degree in missions or Bible/Theology.

Why not also have them study education? Why not also have them study nursing? Why not have them do stuff like that. Missionaries will adapt and do different things while in the mission field...but, that doesn't mean they are doing all the right things. There could be so much done by education majors going into these areas. There could be so much done by nurses going into these other countries.

I know, I know...there are those medical missionaries. But that's not the majority of missionaries. That's also not typically a long-term trip. On the Easter Sunday service, my former church's pastor told a story about how 8 or so of his friends went to a missions trip in Vietnam. They raise the money to go ($3,000 or something) while also buying some smaller motorcycles to drive around Vietnam while they are there. When they leave, the motorcycles are given to churches while there. They got over there and were told they couldn't do any "Christian things." They were refused to do any missions work...which included giving their motorcycles away.

That's lousy. They should've known ahead of time. Not practical. Waste of money. Maybe there is more to the story...but in my opinion, just raise the money and DONATE it if you really want to help. That $3,000 would've went so much farther had they just given it to the Vietnamese people...and so wouldn't the motorcycle.

"This is where the question gets more difficult to answer, because there are many ways to help others, and there are probably some missionaries doing all of them, so I'll just make a list of those things I'm aware of missionaries doing to help others.

• They serve as church planters.
• They serve as doctors.
• They serve as nurses.
• They serve as teachers.
• They serve as pilots.
• They serve as builders.
• They serve as wives and mothers.

And this list is in no way exhaustive."

bigkahuna;1143011 wrote:I've never seen you post a link. I'd love to see your evidence though. That'd be great to read actually. You might save me from wasting any more of my time.

You can start by reading "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. Pretty much destroys any semblance of religious belief.

bigkahuna;1143018 wrote:Like most books out there, everything is up to interpretation right?

There are people out there who strictly believe in tithes, and there are those who feel that whatever (or nothing at all) is best. Like I said before, I've never been forced to give money to my church (and I'm willing to bet an overwhelming majority would say the same). I for one don't feel the need to give 10% or anything for that matter to be considered a good person/Christian. I've actually gotten into arguments with people regarding this. There is nothing wrong with asking members for money to pay for the bills every week.

Sure. It's a fiction novel, of course its open to interpretation. It's just another logical loophole used to justify an erroneous belief.

goosebumps;1143020 wrote:Please enlighten us to the truth. I honestly don't know what to believe. Which religion, if any is correct is beyond me. I don't pretend to know. Pretty sure no one does, including you. Its literally impossible to know.

That said I just try to be a good person. I don't need to belittle others for what they believe, because I don't know what the real answer to life is.

I don't know either. I don't have a problem with the belief, but #1 its not the truth, and #2 keep it entirely out of my life and make businesses like churches pay taxes like everyone else.

bigkahuna;1143023 wrote:I'll agree with some of this/ or what you're trying to portray. This is my truth. Like I said before, it's not my job to make a believer out of you. You need to believe it for yourself. Really all I can do is answer questions or point you in the right direction, if you want to be pointed. It's one of those "you can't help those who don't want to be helped."

I've never forced my beliefs as truth besides MY OWN truth. I attend church to converse with those who have a same personal truth. I'd never join a missionary or something like that because forcing my beliefs on you isn't the same thing as us having the same beliefs, so to me by shoving my beliefs down others' throats is what makes it artificial. In this manner, you haven't really believed anything have you?

If being "helped" is subscribing to a delusional belief system that alters the true nature of one's life and forces them to lose their intellectual integrity and wealth, I don't want to be helped.

sleeper;1143306 wrote:You can start by reading "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. Pretty much destroys any semblance of religious belief.

And how does he do that? I'm just curious.

sleeper;1143308 wrote:Sure. It's a fiction novel, of course its open to interpretation. It's just another logical loophole used to justify an erroneous belief.

Can you prove that it's a fictional novel? A written piece doesn't have to be fiction to be interpreted differently by those who read it.

DeyDurkie5;1143049 wrote:They don't force things down people's throat, yet they share the gospel. Failhook strikes again

I'd argue they don't need to force anything down people's throats. The Catholic Church still brings in billions per year and pays no taxes. We'd see more forcing down the throat if they didn't have 1000's of years of childhood indoctrination, which while isn't a crime in our criminal court system, is a crime in the world of logic and reason. It's a self-fulfilling cult driven by parents who never have taken the blinders off and are scared of the consequences of their children not joining them in heaven. The irony of course, is they should be scared that they are sacrificing their child's intellectual integrity from day 1 and setting up them for complete disappointment after they live a good chunk of their life believing something as fake and fraudulent as religious belief.

sleeper;1143309 wrote:I don't know either. I don't have a problem with the belief, but #1 its not the truth, and #2 keep it entirely out of my life and make businesses like churches pay taxes like everyone else.

I want to know how a Church is like a business. I can have 20 people gather in my backyard and call it a church service. Do I have to pay taxes for that then?

bigkahuna;1143315 wrote:And how does he do that? I'm just curious.

Can you prove that it's a fictional novel? A written piece doesn't have to be fiction to be interpreted differently by those who read it.

Well given that 90% of the book has never been proven and never will be proven, then yes its a fiction novel. Is it based on history or real places? Sure, but so is Harry Potter and countless other fictional novels that exist.

He destroys religion by showing their arguments and pissing them down the drain. It's a beautiful book designed to cure even the most ignorant of believers, maybe you should open your mind and shed the erroneous beliefs you've been wasting your life on.

bigkahuna;1143320 wrote:I want to know how a Church is like a business. I can have 20 people gather in my backyard and call it a church service. Do I have to pay taxes for that then?

Yes, you should. If you take money in exchange for a service, then you should have to pay taxes. I don't see what's so difficult about that.

sleeper;1143311 wrote:If being "helped" is subscribing to a delusional belief system that alters the true nature of one's life and forces them to lose their intellectual integrity and wealth, I don't want to be helped.

Ok, that's your choice. You choose not to accept it. If there is someone out there searching for an answer and looks to the bible, then that's when I would step in and offer advice.


There are still some lingering questions I have for you though.

1. How is having belief ignorant, and you claim that your way is intelligence? You've said yourself you don't know, so how can something be ignorant or intelligent if you don't know the truth about it?

2. The people out there who are seen as intelligent, are they all of a sudden ignorant because they believe in God?

3. Those who are powerful and wealthy, are they somehow poor by believing in God?

Some of the smartest, wealthiest people in history have been believers in God, but they are according to you poor and stupid. How does that work?