se-alum;1004561 wrote: He's an average cover guy

I'll take the word of scouts over yours, who say he's extremely talented.

http://nfldraftmonsters.com/scouting/scouting-report-tyrann-mathieu/

sleeper;1004516 wrote:This is only the type of hyperbole we see in the SEC. You've been bought and sold by the CBS/ESPN hype machine. Sure, TM7 made some cool and exciting plays in CFB, but he's not Charles Woodson, he's not even Suh. He does not deserve the Heisman and I will bet you $3000 that he does not win the Heisman. Do we have a deal?

se-alum;1004561 wrote:They scored 14 points based on what he did as a punt returner. Obviously those were great returns, not gonna win you a Heisman trophy though. As CBF said, great player, All-American, not a Heisman winner. You have to be phenomenal at your position to win the Heisman as a defensive player. He's an average cover guy, that makes tackles in the run game. Charles Woodson was probably the best cover corner in the history of college football, which is why he has a Heisman. He had 8 picks his Heisman season, when QB's were trying to throw opposite of him.

So we went from saying he shouldn't even be in the Heisman discussion to saying that he's not going to be the winner? How did that change happen? I never said he was going to be the winner, nor did I say he should be the winner. RG3 should be the winner, but TM7 deserves to be in New York and in the discussion.

krambman;1004670 wrote:So we went from saying he shouldn't even be in the Heisman discussion to saying that he's not going to be the winner? How did that change happen? .

Because they realized they were wrong about how good he really is. It's that simple lol.

I honestly don't think he deserved the invite. Sure he's a good player, but even without TM7, LSU is still undefeated and in the NCG. Their season came down to QB play, and their duo of Lee and Jefferson did just enough not to cost their team a game. Their defense was outstanding, but to me, TM7 was just a piece of the puzzle. LSU achieved all their success this season because of their team success, not the success of TM7. I don't think he was even the best player at his position on the team, let alone the entire team. He helped, obviously, but when you go on to beat a team 42-10, you were meant to win that game.

Mathieu reminds me of a Troy Polamalu who can return kicks

If he played for Western Kentucky or Appy State we wouldn't even know who the hell he was.

ytownfootball;1004688 wrote:If he played for Western Kentucky or Appy State we wouldn't even know who the hell he was.

I'm sure all the other finalists would be getting the same consideration at those schools too, right?

karen lotz;1004693 wrote:I'm sure all the other finalists would be getting the same consideration at those schools too, right?

Stanford? Baylor? C'mon even being "that guy" you can understand the disparity there.

lhslep134;1004631 wrote:I'll take the word of scouts over yours, who say he's extremely talented.

http://nfldraftmonsters.com/scouting/scouting-report-tyrann-mathieu/

A link to a scouting report written by a guy that says Mathieu is his favorite player?

ytownfootball;1004694 wrote:Stanford? Baylor? C'mon even being "that guy" you can understand the disparity there.

Disparity between the schools of the finalists and FCS schools? Yeah I can see that.

karen lotz;1004711 wrote:Disparity between the schools of the finalists and FCS schools? Yeah I can see that.

As a defensive player (they rarely get a look in any circumstance), he only gets a look because he plays for LSU. I won't be that guy that says he benefited from a monster defensive line, he does play well but I see it as a kind of a joke he's even in the mix, just based on the history of the award.

Would you ever consider Devin Hester for the MVP in the NFL?

ytownfootball;1004714 wrote:As a defensive player (they rarely get a look in any circumstance), he only gets a look because he plays for LSU. I won't be that guy that says he benefited from a monster defensive line, he does play well but I see it as a kind of a joke he's even in the mix, just based on the history of the award.

Would you ever consider Devin Hester for the MVP in the NFL?

The year the Bears went to the Super Bowl, maybe.

ytownfootball;1004714 wrote: Would you ever consider Devin Hester for the MVP in the NFL?

Devin Hester: big impact in the return game

Tyrann Mathieu: big impact on defense and return game


I can see exactly why your analogy makes perfect sense!

lhslep134;1004726 wrote:Devin Hester: big impact in the return game

Tyrann Mathieu: big impact on defense and return game


I can see exactly why your analogy makes perfect sense!

Do you think this guy should've been a Heisman candidate?

Punt Returns:
493 yds
15.4 avg
1 TD

Defense:
70 tackles
5 int's
11 tkl for loss
5 sacks

se-alum;1004743 wrote:Do you think this guy should've been a Heisman candidate?

Punt Returns:
493 yds
15.4 avg
1 TD

Defense:
70 tackles
5 int's
11 tkl for loss
5 sacks

How many forced fumbles, how many fumble recoveries, how many defensive touchdowns?

It's easy to selectively pick and choose stats.

se-alum;1004743 wrote:Do you think this guy should've been a Heisman candidate?

Punt Returns:
493 yds
15.4 avg
1 TD

Defense:
70 tackles
5 int's
11 tkl for loss
5 sacks

This is a NO without a doubt.

lhslep134;1004761 wrote:How many forced fumbles, how many fumble recoveries, how many defensive touchdowns?

It's easy to selectively pick and choose stats.

0 Forced fumble. Fumble recoveries aren't a meaningful stat. 0 defensive TD's.

OhioStatePride2003;1004683 wrote:I honestly don't think he deserved the invite. Sure he's a good player, but even without TM7, LSU is still undefeated and in the NCG. Their season came down to QB play, and their duo of Lee and Jefferson did just enough not to cost their team a game. Their defense was outstanding, but to me, TM7 was just a piece of the puzzle. LSU achieved all their success this season because of their team success, not the success of TM7. I don't think he was even the best player at his position on the team, let alone the entire team. He helped, obviously, but when you go on to beat a team 42-10, you were meant to win that game.

The Heisman Trophy is not the MVP of College Football award. It is for the most outstanding player in college football this year. I also want to know how many LSU games you watched beginning to end this year to make claims like he's not even the best player at his position on his team.

ytownfootball;1004694 wrote:Stanford? Baylor? C'mon even being "that guy" you can understand the disparity there.

Please don't try and compare Western Kentucky and Appalachian State to Stanford and Baylor. A team that has been in D1-A for less than a decade and one that is D1-AA are not comparable to two teams that playing in BCS AQ conferences that are both ranked in the top 25 and are on national television nearly every week.

ytownfootball;1004714 wrote:As a defensive player (they rarely get a look in any circumstance), he only gets a look because he plays for LSU. I won't be that guy that says he benefited from a monster defensive line, he does play well but I see it as a kind of a joke he's even in the mix, just based on the history of the award.

Would you ever consider Devin Hester for the MVP in the NFL?

I will grant you that if he had the season he's had for a team outside of the top 10 that wasn't in contention for the national title most of the year then he wouldn't get much consideration for the Heisman, but that's true of most Heisman candidates. Being a Heisman finalist has as much to do with publicity as it does with performance.

se-alum;1004743 wrote:Do you think this guy should've been a Heisman candidate?

Punt Returns:
493 yds
15.4 avg
1 TD

Defense:
70 tackles
5 int's
11 tkl for loss
5 sacks

If you want to make your entire argument based on statistics then I can only assume that you think Case Keenum should win The Heisman this year and that Kellen Moore should be the runner up.

krambman;1004782 wrote:The Heisman Trophy is not the MVP of College Football award. It is for the most outstanding player in college football this year. I also want to know how many LSU games you watched beginning to end this year to make claims like he's not even the best player at his position on his team.



Please don't try and compare Western Kentucky and Appalachian State to Stanford and Baylor. A team that has been in D1-A for less than a decade and one that is D1-AA are not comparable to two teams that playing in BCS AQ conferences that are both ranked in the top 25 and are on national television nearly every week.



I will grant you that if he had the season he's had for a team outside of the top 10 that wasn't in contention for the national title most of the year then he wouldn't get much consideration for the Heisman, but that's true of most Heisman candidates. Being a Heisman finalist has as much to do with publicity as it does with performance.



If you want to make your entire argument based on statistics then I can only assume that you think Case Keenum should win The Heisman this year and that Kellen Moore should be the runner up.

In fact I think Andrew Luck should win the Heisman. Has a bigger impact on his team than any player in the country.

se-alum;1004780 wrote:0 Forced fumble. Fumble recoveries aren't a meaningful stat. 0 defensive TD's.

Pretty sure that he had five forced fumbles this year.

krambman;1004799 wrote:Pretty sure that he had five forced fumbles this year.

Please read the thread for context.

se-alum;1004793 wrote:In fact I think Andrew Luck should win the Heisman. Has a bigger impact on his team than any player in the country.

You think Luck should win because of the impact he has on his team (more than just stats), yet you argue Matheiu shouldn't be in the conversation simply because of his stats? In order to win an argument you have to be logically consistent.

krambman;1004803 wrote:You think Luck should win because of the impact he has on his team (more than just stats), yet you argue Matheiu shouldn't be in the conversation simply because of his stats? In order to win an argument you have to be logically consistent.

I put out stats to compare them to the stats that had already been put out by someone else. I don't think Mathieu should be in the Heisman discussion because he is a great return man, that is good defensively. To be in the Heisman discussion, you need to be great at your position. Charles Woodson(as much as I hate hime) was great, Mathieu is good. Trust me, I could watch Mathieu with the ball in his hands all day, cause it's fun to watch. He's just not a great player at his position.

krambman;1004782 wrote:


Please don't try and compare Western Kentucky and Appalachian State to Stanford and Baylor. A team that has been in D1-A for less than a decade and one that is D1-AA are not comparable to two teams that playing in BCS AQ conferences that are both ranked in the top 25 and are on national television nearly every week.



I will grant you that if he had the season he's had for a team outside of the top 10 that wasn't in contention for the national title most of the year then he wouldn't get much consideration for the Heisman, but that's true of most Heisman candidates. Being a Heisman finalist has as much to do with publicity as it does with performance.

Not comparing them at all, just that (in citing Appy St. and Western Ky) as "teams outside of the top 10 that wasn't in contention for the national title most of the year". In the case of Stanford and Baylor just that they're generally not blessed with Heisman talent.

krambman;1004782 wrote:The Heisman Trophy is not the MVP of College Football award. It is for the most outstanding player in college football this year. I also want to know how many LSU games you watched beginning to end this year to make claims like he's not even the best player at his position on his team.

I watched every game that was on national tv, I'm assuming, just like you did. I know what the Heisman Trophy is, but thanks for spelling it out for me. I do not think the "Honey Badger" is the best player, at his position, on his team, and for me, it's not even close. I would take Morris Claiborne over Thyrann Mathieu any day of the week, and it's not even that close. Both have been relevant for two years at LSU, and Claiborne has 11 INTs, compared to TM7's 4. Claiborne's 6 INTs this season went for a total of 173 yards, or, a 28.8 yard average. He also has a TD on an INT return of 89 yards. He's intercepting passes and giving his team great field position in the process. 2 of Honey Badger's went for an 8 yard average.

Naturally, your response is going to be the punt returns, forced fumbles, the 1.5 sack, and the number of tackles. He only has 2 punt returns, albeit of miraculous nature and on national television. BUT, he had 33 return opportunities for 420 yards, or, a 12.7 yard average. So really, despite having far less opportunities, Claiborne done more with his INTs than TM7 did with his returns. But TM7 did his on a national stage, right? So did Claiborne:

@ Mississippi State W 19-6 2 INTs, not many return yards, but that was a tough game for LSU.
@ Alabama W 9-6 OT 1 INT, huge return of 33 yards inside the 'Bama 20, setting up the tying FG for LSU in the 4th
Arkansas W 41-17 1 INT, intercepted at midfield, LSU up 14 at the time, scores on that drive to go up 21, breaking Arkansas' back.
Georgia W 42-10 1 INT, returned 42 yards for a TD, putting the exclamation point on LSU's 13-0 season

Also had a pick against Tennessee in a 30-some to 7 blow-out.

Now you'll say he has more tackles and, of course, more forced fumbles. Oh, and a sack, too. For one, he plays close to the line in run support. He's not able to do that if there isn't 1) another (better) lockdown corner, and, 2) a stellar supporting cast around him. Because everyone else was so good, he was able to make the plays he did make around the line of scrimmage. Look at where his fumble recoveries took place - behind the line of scrimmage. Same thing applies to the more tackles. Most were at, or, near the line of scrimmage.

I know, TM7 has 4 total TDs. But each of Claiborne's INTs led to scoring drives for LSU, so in the end, the result is the same. More passes defended, though, right? For every spectacular play TM7 made, there were just as many screw-ups. A lot of those deflections came after he recovered from being beat deep, and getting to the receiver just before the ball did. Also, again, how many of those deflected passes came at the line of scrimmage? TM7 is simply just a member of an outstanding (team) defense. Nothing more, nothing less. He doesn't deserve the Heisman, and isn't even the best player at his position on his team. The only reason he's in New York is because he's the flashier of the two, and was awarded more opportunities to make "big plays" than Claiborne was. Both are good, but Claiborne is better. Period.