Speedofsand;999147 wrote:11. Tarkenton
12. Fouts

Agree with these two.

rydawg5;999720 wrote:I...
If Marino was truly the best passer, then he was the best quarterback.

Disagree. There are other aspects to the game that are extremely important at the quarterback position. The greatest passer ever could hamper his team if he couldn't play the position well and manage the game.

BR1986FB;1000298 wrote:Not taking sides but you DO realize that Manning plays in one of the weaker divisions in the NFL? JAX & TENN are usually "gimmes" and Houston hasn't seemed to find a way to figure it out with all of that talent. Not saying Manning isn't great but he's essentially playing in the AFC's version of the NFC West.

Over the years, the AFC East could be considered worse. At least the Titans went 13-3 one year. Jags made the playoffs and beat Pitt, 2007 Colts, Titans, Jags all made the playoffs.
Bills...worse than the Texans lol. Dolphins, about on par with Jags, imo. Jets, better of the 2 with Tenn, but not 100% better until the last 3 seasons.

and this list is garbage anyhow since there is no Jeff George.

There are a lot of good points being made.

Sammy Baugh is not the 2nd best QB ever.

Everyone but King agrees Brady is top 5 ever and most everyone believes Manning is.

We are a little unsure where to place Farve but we know Elway should be well onto this list.

Montana was definitely great but a little overrated as well.

Skyhook79;999554 wrote:He had Moss for 2 years and was not on any of the 3 Super Bowl wins. Now name his recievers in the 3 Super Bowls without looking it up.

Deion Branch, David Givens, Troy Patton


Thanks for completely ignoring the defense argument. You made that pretty easy for me.

Skyhook79;1000318 wrote:Cassel has "sucked" since? First off he went to a team that "sucked" and 2nd he was a Pro-Bowler in 2010 his 2nd year with the Chiefs and they went 10-6 throwing 27 Td's and only 7 Int's. This year he has been hurt most of the year. The reason the Pats went 11-5 with Cassel is because he is a good QB. Just because the Colts don't have a suitable back-up doesn't make Manning better.

This. Cassel is really not that bad of a QB. If he was on the Colts, I would think they probably would have won some games. Colts have known for years that their backup QB situation was atrocious. Every year they would play their subs in a meaningless regular season game and Jim Sorgi or Curtis Painter would come in and suck. It was never an issue though because Manning never got hurt.

Y-Town Steelhound;1000641 wrote:Deion Branch, David Givens, Troy Patton


Thanks for completely ignoring the defense argument. You made that pretty easy for me.

Ok tough guy:

Since 2001 Tom Brady's first year of starting.

Pats defensive ranks since 2001:
24th
23rd
7th
9th
26th
6th
4th
10th
11th
25th
32nd (last place this year whats the Pats record????)

Colts defensive rank since 2001:
29th
8th
11th
29th
11th
21st
3rd
11th
18th
20th
28th this year

Colts were ranked higher 5 times, Pats were ranked higher 6 times.
Colts highest rank 3rd, Pats highest rank 4th
Colts lowest rank 29th, Pats lowest rank 32nd

Looks about even to me. Nice try though. LOL

Skyhook79;1002251 wrote:Ok tough guy:

Since 2001 Tom Brady's first year of starting.

Pats defensive ranks since 2001:
24th
23rd
7th
9th
26th
6th
4th
10th
11th
25th
32nd (last place this year whats the Pats record????)

Colts defensive rank since 2001:
29th
8th
11th
29th
11th
21st
3rd
11th
18th
20th
28th this year

Colts were ranked higher 5 times, Pats were ranked higher 6 times.
Colts highest rank 3rd, Pats highest rank 4th
Colts lowest rank 29th, Pats lowest rank 32nd

Looks about even to me. Nice try though. LOL

You know I find it pretty interesting that you would use total defense numbers here (which is fairly subjective since the two teams have different schedules) but tried to blame Brady having shitty receivers before. See I'm fine with the whole individual players argument, how bout we check it out here?

New England Patriots Defensive Pro Bowlers 2001-Present: 13
New England Patriots Defensive All Pros 2001-Present: 6

Indianapolis Colts Defensive Pro Bowlers 1998-Present: 5
Indianapolis Colts Defensive All Pros 1998-Present: 2

These numbers speak for themselves.

Y-Town Steelhound;1002324 wrote:You know I find it pretty interesting that you would use total defense numbers here (which is fairly subjective since the two teams have different schedules) but tried to blame Brady having shitty receivers before. See I'm fine with the whole individual players argument, how bout we check it out here?

New England Patriots Defensive Pro Bowlers 2001-Present: 13
New England Patriots Defensive All Pros 2001-Present: 6

Indianapolis Colts Defensive Pro Bowlers 1998-Present: 5
Indianapolis Colts Defensive All Pros 1998-Present: 2

These numbers speak for themselves.

Pro Bowl selections mean nothing. If your a 5th alternate your considered a Pro Bowler. Why is it interesting that I use TOTAL defense. Is just scoring defense any more subjective since the teams have different schedules? Total defense is the best measure.
Freeney and Mathis are considered as one the greatest DE duo's to ever play the game.

The nice thing about sports....people can skew numbers their way to support their arguments....it is so subjective.

wes_mantooth;1002431 wrote:The nice thing about sports....people can skew numbers their way to support their arguments....it is so subjective.

Link?

wes_mantooth;1002431 wrote:The nice thing about sports....people can skew numbers their way to support their arguments....it is so subjective.

what is subjective about wins/losses and passing stats?

Football is an interesting sport to peg wins and losses on because it's such a team sport. Both Manning and Brady have had a lot of success with their respective teams.

If I'm a team and I have the choice of Manning or Brady, I'm taking Manning every time. He just commands an offense like no other QB in the league right now...maybe even ever. He's accomplished everything there is to accomplish at the NFL level and has the stats to back him up as one of the greatest ever.

Interesting side point though skyhook. You mention Freeney and Mathis, ok but what about the other 9 GUYS on the defense? You asked me to name Brady's receivers without looking it up (and I did), I ask you to name a Colts linebacker during their super bowl year, or really any year Manning has been there. See that can go both ways.

Skyhook79;1002340 wrote:Pro Bowl selections mean nothing. If your a 5th alternate your considered a Pro Bowler.

That's not true, have to go to be considered a pro bowler. Also Pro bowls definitely isn't the end all be all (See DumbAss as a pro bowler in 07) however all pro does mean something. Bottom line you got pwned.

Commander of Awesome;1004212 wrote:That's not true, have to go to be considered a pro bowler. Also Pro bowls definitely isn't the end all be all (See DumbAss as a pro bowler in 07) however all pro does mean something. Bottom line you got pwned.

Pro Bowl selections mean nothing. If your the 5th alternate who goes because the other 5 couldn't then your considered a Pro Bowler.

That better for you. Plus its all fan voting and why Tebow might be a Pro Bowler this year.

What about All Pro then failhook? Thought so, nice spin fail.

Commander of Awesome;1004306 wrote:What about All Pro then failhook? Thought so, nice spin fail.

A lot of deserving players get overlooked for the Pro Bowl each year also. But of course being a Browns fan I know you are not aware of that.

Skyhook79;1004333 wrote:A lot of deserving players get overlooked for the Pro Bowl each year also. But of course being a Browns fan I know you are not aware of that.

I didn't ask about the pro bowl. Nice fail.

Yea can't really argue against All-Pro selections. While I agree that Pro Bowls aren't the be all end all of a player's worth, I can't find one Patriot on that list that wasn't a pro bowl caliber player. Most of them went to multiple Pro Bowls.

If you really wanna argue that Manning played with better defensive players than Brady, go right ahead. I'll be over here laughing.


Just for the record, I'm not saying Brady isn't one of the best QB's of all time either. I just think Manning is a better quarterback and makes the talent around him look better than Brady does. Did Brady have some questionable players on offense? Sure he did...but Brady also had a lot of help with a great offensive line not to mention better offensive coordinators that were good enough to get head jobs elsewhere (Charlie Weis and Josh McDaniels). You know who Manning's o-coordinator was? Peyton Manning. You know who held the title of Colts o-coordinator for Manning? Something called Tom Moore who most notably was the receivers coach for the late 70s Steelers (because coaching Swann and Stallworth had to be difficult). Again Brady is a great QB and his legacy speaks for itself. But to say he was better than Manning because he won Super Bowls is misinformed. Manning did more with less from his coaches, to his defense, to even his offense and is overall the better QB.

Using Charlie Weis and Josh McDaniels as examples really doesn't help your argument it actually hurts it. Look what they have done since they left the Pats and Tom Brady. I would say Tom Brady made them look good. The defenses were not much different both teams were average to slightly above average most seasons. Brady has the better stats, Manning is certainly not 3 spots better than Brady. Look at their head to head match-ups and when Manning plays in cold weather.


HEAD TO HEAD

Tom Brady and the Patriots have won eight of the 12 games with Peyton Manning's Colts. The QB rating for each player in their head-to-head matchups. Tom Brady's is on the left.

2001	79.6	48.2	Patriots
2001	148.3	106.9	Patriots
2003	87.3	95.7	Patriots
'03 play	76.1	35.5	Patriots
2004	111.2	93.5	Patriots
'04 play	92.2	69.3	Patriots
2005	121.4	117.1	Colts
2006	34.0	93.1	Colts
'06 play	79.5	79.1	Colts
2007	95.2	83.1	Patriots
2009	110.7	97.4	Colts
2010	123.1	96.3	Patriots

These are the 10 best quarterback seasons ever by conventional metrics (passing yards, touchdowns/interceptions, yards per attempt, QB rating and wins), with just a dash of in-the-moment resonance thrown in. Notice No. 1 and No. 2.
1. 2007 Brady (16 G): 4,806 yards, 50 TDs, 8 INTs, 9.4 YPA, 117.2 rating, 16 wins.
2. 2004 Manning (16 G): 4,557 yards, 49 TDs, 10 INTs, 9.2 YPA, 121.1 rating, 12 wins.
3. 1984 Marino (16 G): 5,084 yards, 48 TDs, 17 INTs, 9.0 YPA, 108.9 rating, 14 wins.
4. 1999 Warner (16 G): 4,830 yards, 41 TDs, 13 INTs, 8.7 YPA, 109.2 rating, 13 wins.
5. 1994 Young (15 G): 3,969 yards, 35 TDs, 10 INTs, 8.6 YPA, 112.8 rating, 13 wins.
6. 2010 Brady (16 G): 3,900 yards, 36 TDs, 4 INTs, 7.9 YPA, 111.0 rating, 14 wins.
7. 1998 Cunningham (14 G): 3,704 yards, 34 TDs, 10 INTs, 106.0 rating, 13 wins.
8. 2009 Brees (15 G): 4,388 yards, 34 TDs, 11 INTs, 8.5 YPA, 109.6 rating, 13 wins.
9. 2009 Favre (16 G): 4,202 yards, 33 TDs, 7 INTs, 7.9 YPA, 107.2 rating, 12 wins.
10. 1989 Montana (13 G): 3,521 yards, 26 TDs, 8 INTs, 9.1 YPA, 112.4 rating, 11 wins.

• Only 23 quarterbacks have thrown at least 225 touchdowns in the regular season. Of those 23, only Brady has a TD-INT ratio better than 2.5-to-1

• Brady reached 100 career victories faster than any quarterback ever (Manning was the fifth-fastest) and has a higher winning percentage than any other quarterback with 100 or more victories (regular season plus playoffs). And by the way, it's not even close. Here's everyone with a .600 or better winning percentage:
Brady: .776 (125-36)
Montana: .711 (133-54)
Bradshaw: .684 (121-56)
Manning: .664 (150-76)
Unitas: .653 (124-66)
Young: .650 (102-55)
Elway: .645 (162-89)
Starr: .644 (105-58)< br> Favre: .618 (199-123)
Marino: .601 (155-103)

Skyhook79;1004333 wrote:A lot of deserving players get overlooked for the Pro Bowl each year also. But of course being a Browns fan I know you are not aware of that.

So you are the only Browns fan who is aware of that?

I would take Brady. As for the stat battle, I think skyhook won this one with his last post.. I picked Brady because in my gut if I needed to win. I trust him more than Manning.

wes_mantooth;999650 wrote:Eh, I agree about them mailing it in this year, but I think his control of that complex offense is amazing.

Manning himself has said their offense isn't complicated - joking they run the same 3 plays all the time. It's heavily based on option and timing routes, tailored to Manning over years, which has A LOT to do with another QB stepping in. No chemistry, completely out-of-sync with the receivers. Manning has had very little turnover around him on offense, at least compared with other QB's (not even close to Brady, other than perhaps the OL, where both have been blessed with outstanding protection).

Brady is fortunate to play in a great system, as well, so good it put Matt Cassel in the pro bowl (nearly twice), albeit after a slew of guys took a pass.

Commander of Awesome;1004408 wrote:I didn't ask about the pro bowl. Nice fail.

I think it's obvious he doesn't know there is a difference between pro bowl and all pro.