justincredible
Posts: 32,056
Nov 30, 2011 12:02pm
I'm curious what youth wrestling has to do with the topic at hand? I'm unaware of any youth program that has wrestle offs.falcon81;994692 wrote:There is no right or wrong answers here. What is good for Ohio State is not necessarily good for a young developmental HS or youth program. Whats good for the fans and coaches are not always good for the kids. To much mocho man attitude where your crushing a kid in front of friends and family isn't much of a team builder . Most wrestle offs in HS can be lopsided and awkward for parents and wrestlers at the HS level where fans are neighbors and friends. College is all veteran state champs from around the country getting paid in tuition to fight for that spot....A totally different ball game. I have seen many macho man very very good wrestlers and very knowledgable and highly technical wrestler coaches blow out their program and depth by catering just to the top wrestlers while crushing the rest.... Lets remember wrestling is to develop all kids and build them all up at what ever level they happen to be coming in....Please be mindful of that... I have never let my son's wrestle till 5th grade because most youth rooms are out of control, they didn't lose a step by 7th grade.We are not big time WWF promoters. Great opinions on this all around no absolute right or wrongs because bad people could mis handle either scenario and a good coach could make either work with adjustments if he had too.
At youth level There is only one purpose and one objective , to create a love and fondness to the sport for all kids, state titles at that age mean nothing and can even ruin a kid long run. If it builds them ALL up do it, But at youth age they are little boys there is plenty of time for "Tough Guy" the rest of their lives. I have a secret Video I got from one of the premier former Soviet Union developmental coaches. An awesome training video on how they train and select their young wrestlers. Zero competition till they are 12. Gymnastics, core training, flexibility and fundamental drilling and technique only. if you ever come to a camp I'll show you this, it would change some of your minds on how to get your kid ready for HS.
falcon81
Posts: 571
Nov 30, 2011 12:23pm
Wrestle offs for community teams are common around here for who starts on a youth team for a team tournament. Even throwing out the youth element the post still stands on point. The point I made with youth applies to HS also from kid to kid and program to program. Like in anything who is carrying out the plan effects things usually more than the plan itself. No absolute rights or wrong usually just right or wrong people.justincredible;994726 wrote:I'm curious what youth wrestling has to do with the topic at hand? I'm unaware of any youth program that has wrestle offs.
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queencitybuckeye
Posts: 7,117
Nov 30, 2011 12:28pm
If wrestler A is substantially better than wrestler B, I doubt that getting beaten alone or with an audience will make any significant difference to "B".
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Nov 30, 2011 12:28pm
Many, many youth programs have wrestle offs if they compete in a league or have team duals planned.justincredible;994726 wrote:I'm curious what youth wrestling has to do with the topic at hand? I'm unaware of any youth program that has wrestle offs.
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Bitterrunner-up
Posts: 632
Nov 30, 2011 12:28pm
Falcon...I don't disagree with your post. My point was directed at 1_Beast saying that any coach who used refs for wrestle-off was incompetent. I totally agree that what might be good for one group or level might not be good for another. But I also think, unless I have direct knowledge of a program and its make up, I'll always defer to the Head Coach. It's his program, he knows his kids, he's in the best position to make the right call on what's best for them.
Also, after going back and re-reading 1_beast's post, I'd be interested to know what some refs think about his assertion. 1_best seems to be saying that if you're a good coach, you're automatically a good official. I know some great coaches who are not stong officials, particularlly with regard to positioning and keeping up with rule changes.
Also, after going back and re-reading 1_beast's post, I'd be interested to know what some refs think about his assertion. 1_best seems to be saying that if you're a good coach, you're automatically a good official. I know some great coaches who are not stong officials, particularlly with regard to positioning and keeping up with rule changes.
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queencitybuckeye
Posts: 7,117
Nov 30, 2011 12:38pm
As a coach I don't want to be the official in the event that a borderline call would determine a starting spot. Talk about having the potential to do damage to the team concept.Bitterrunner-up;994765 wrote: Also, after going back and re-reading 1_beast's post, I'd be interested to know what some refs think about his assertion. 1_best seems to be saying that if you're a good coach, you're automatically a good official. I know some great coaches who are not stong officials, particularlly with regard to positioning and keeping up with rule changes.
falcon81
Posts: 571
Nov 30, 2011 12:43pm
Agree.Bitterrunner-up;994765 wrote:Falcon...I don't disagree with your post. My point was directed at 1_Beast saying that any coach who used refs for wrestle-off was incompetent. I totally agree that what might be good for one group or level might not be good for another. But I also think, unless I have direct knowledge of a program and its make up, I'll always defer to the Head Coach. It's his program, he knows his kids, he's in the best position to make the right call on what's best for them.
Also, after going back and re-reading 1_beast's post, I'd be interested to know what some refs think about his assertion. 1_best seems to be saying that if you're a good coach, you're automatically a good official. I know some great coaches who are not stong officials, particularlly with regard to positioning and keeping up with rule changes.
If wrestler A is substantially better than wrestler B, I doubt that getting beaten alone or with an audience will make any significant difference to "B".
Disagree, in 30 years of coaching I have seen very negative effects on a "B" getting put in embarrassing mis-matched lop sided butt whippings. Not in good taste to do it in front of friends and family, internal wrestle offs in my opinion. Over the years I have become very fond of those "B" Wrestlers in the room. They sacrifice the most for the least amount of return and glory...I love this group....Take care of them, don't take them for granted and make them look good every chance you GET!!
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Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Nov 30, 2011 12:50pm
That I agree with Falcon. B wrestlers make the squad what it is. Without them the room would be very different and not in a good way.
justincredible
Posts: 32,056
Nov 30, 2011 1:46pm
falcon81;994754 wrote:Wrestle offs for community teams are common around here for who starts on a youth team for a team tournament. Even throwing out the youth element the post still stands on point. The point I made with youth applies to HS also from kid to kid and program to program. Like in anything who is carrying out the plan effects things usually more than the plan itself. No absolute rights or wrong usually just right or wrong people.
Gotcha. All of the youth tournaments down here are wide open for everyone and anyone to wrestle.Con_Alma;994764 wrote:Many, many youth programs have wrestle offs if they compete in a league or have team duals planned.
said_aouita
Posts: 8,532
Nov 30, 2011 4:39pm
Graham brings in an official. Wrestle-offs are done before practices still, I believe.
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Gulliotine
Posts: 7
Nov 30, 2011 6:17pm
In years past they have. I doubt it this year. There's only 5 wrestlers on the black team and none will contest a varsity spot.said_aouita;995124 wrote:Graham brings in an official. Wrestle-offs are done before practices still, I believe.
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I Wear Pants
Posts: 16,223
Nov 30, 2011 8:25pm
This. Except for "while the rest of the team watched". Seniors were responsible for making the rest of the team do work in one corner of the room while the wrestle offs were going on (usually two matches at a time).justincredible;992912 wrote:Ours were always done right at practice. Officiated by the coaches while the rest of the team watched.
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bw133
Posts: 142
Nov 30, 2011 11:00pm
I wish i could "like" comments, because Bitter just made me giggle...
Wrestle-offs should be done however the coaching staff feels will benefit their program the most. If they want to showcase their kids and get a little pre season hype for parents and fans, which also prepares the wrestlers for a match like feel, then do it! If you like it behind closed doors where the coaches ref and the other team works out, then by god please do so. Last time I checked there were multiple successful programs and I'm sure they did many things differently. In college now, I personally like having it feel as much like a match day as possible. Weigh in on scratch or +2, then get an hour before you start, warm up and do the wrestle-offs. That way I can get used to my weight being low and having a better sense of time management and creating a solid routine.
Wrestle-offs should be done however the coaching staff feels will benefit their program the most. If they want to showcase their kids and get a little pre season hype for parents and fans, which also prepares the wrestlers for a match like feel, then do it! If you like it behind closed doors where the coaches ref and the other team works out, then by god please do so. Last time I checked there were multiple successful programs and I'm sure they did many things differently. In college now, I personally like having it feel as much like a match day as possible. Weigh in on scratch or +2, then get an hour before you start, warm up and do the wrestle-offs. That way I can get used to my weight being low and having a better sense of time management and creating a solid routine.
nykc
Posts: 276
Dec 1, 2011 9:51am
So what is your feelings on Team Captains ref'ing behind closed doors with other kids in the room watching?
falcon81
Posts: 571
Dec 1, 2011 9:59am
Personally I think that is a really bad idea. Way to many pot holes there. Clicks, social circles, inexperience...ect. The Captains should be out leading the team in work outs while the coaching staff handles line up issues and supervision issues. That could be a parent train wreck to have a super close wrestle off reffed and decided by a 17 tear old kid. Don't do it!nykc;996228 wrote:So what is your feelings on Team Captains ref'ing behind closed doors with other kids in the room watching?
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Bitterrunner-up
Posts: 632
Dec 1, 2011 12:23pm
We're in total agreement here. I think that many of the programs that bring in officials do it for to avoid similar issues with parents. Regardless of how good an offical a coach can be, bringing in a professional eliminates a parent's ability to gripe about Jonny losing hiswrestle-off.falcon81;996241 wrote:Personally I think that is a really bad idea. Way to many pot holes there. Clicks, social circles, inexperience...ect...That could be a parent train wreck to have a super close wrestle off reffed and decided by a 17 tear old kid. Don't do it!
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ptrsn
Posts: 356
Dec 1, 2011 1:36pm
falcon81--i would love to see that soviet video. is there any way you could post it, email it, or make a copy for me? thanks in advance.
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ptrsn
Posts: 356
Dec 1, 2011 1:38pm
i have always wondered how wrestle-offs are done at a place like st. eds, graham, blair etc. anybody got any insight on those types of programs wrestle-offs?
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snugglyhippo
Posts: 272
Dec 1, 2011 2:04pm
At Blair I am told they are done by a coin flip...albeit a coin flip by a certified official. Seriously, though I agree with everything Falcon and Bitter have said on this topic. The only thing I will say is that you could say the kids will be off to the side working out on whatever, but it is my experience that if the other wrestlers are in the area of the wrestle-offs, they will be watching. I like to send them to lift or run while we are doing them, and I like to have one coach as an assistant ref, and one coach as the timer/scorekeeper. We have had parents come to watch before when they felt it was possible their kids were not getting a "fair shake"...my words, not theirs...doesn't bother me, in a closed room over time (2 of 3), the best person always wins.
falcon81
Posts: 571
Dec 1, 2011 2:43pm
I promised not to use it or share it outside my own circle. Great stuff with russian background music and language. Its amazing what physical athletic core exercises these kids do long before they ever wrestle a live match before they are 12. One of the few things I agree on with a communist...LOL. Don't start your kid till he is 12, teach them flexibility, gymnastics, balance, core strength, drilling games, stance games, coordination/reflex drills ect....A biddy Weekend warrior dog fighting approach long before most kids are physically and emotionally ready never hit me right. All 3 of my oldest sons started late , didn't hurt them a bit, my 4th son Stone is 9 so a couple more years before he will see a trophy...LOl PTRSN PM me matbe we can hook up at some tournament and I'll share the video with you on my computer.ptrsn;996546 wrote:falcon81--i would love to see that soviet video. is there any way you could post it, email it, or make a copy for me? thanks in advance.
said_aouita
Posts: 8,532
Dec 1, 2011 4:16pm
Mentioned above, Graham does bring in an official*. They shake hands like before any match. Only thing missing is team uni's.ptrsn;996551 wrote:i have always wondered how wrestle-offs are done at a place like st. eds, graham, blair etc. anybody got any insight on those types of programs wrestle-offs?
*At least they have some years past. Gulliotine points out Graham did not last year. How it sounds from gulliotine since no B-team, their will be no wrestle offs?
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Gulliotine
Posts: 7
Dec 1, 2011 6:43pm
Mentioned above, Graham has no need for an official this year. They didn't use one last year. There is no "B" team.said_aouita;996788 wrote:Mentioned above, Graham does bring in an official. They shake hands like before any match. Only thing missing is team uni's.
said_aouita
Posts: 8,532
Dec 1, 2011 7:41pm
Figured Jack would still come over.Gulliotine;996949 wrote:Mentioned above, Graham has no need for an official this year. They didn't use one last year. There is no "B" team.
said_aouita
Posts: 8,532
Dec 2, 2011 5:03am
Since no B team for wrestling, wonder if some local kids will end up playing basketball.Gulliotine;996949 wrote:Mentioned above, Graham has no need for an official this year. They didn't use one last year. There is no "B" team.
falcon81
Posts: 571
Dec 2, 2011 9:53am
Funny how the best team in Ohio and the greatest camp on earth has the least local kids and no "B" team . Attracting great kids? Developing local kids? Has this helped the Graham Basketball team ? Anyone know? No wrestle offs sorta tell what kinda of program and disadvantage it is to be just a normal kid that loves wrestling who actually lives in Graham. Play basketball or get another hobby because more time will be spent getting the already great kid in Illinois than the hard work of developing the local kid, not to mention the dent that local might put in the armor of the coaches accomplishments by not winning a State championship, after all any thing less would be a disgrace.Just kidding, but you do have to feel bad for the Above average local wrestler there who will never get to wrestle..said_aouita;997480 wrote:Since no B team for wrestling, wonder if some local kids will end up playing basketball.