Red Rider Nation;1291698 wrote:There was one on the Orrville team in 1998! With his back against the wall and just over a minute on the clock he drove his team down the field and scored the winning TD. He proved himself over and over that he was a great leader even as a freshman

Just talked about that team the other day....one of the greatest teams in Orrville history. Line opened holes for Dru to run wild, a strong defense and playmakers on the edge.

Not a smack to Justin...but was he truly a LEADER of that team? Only he & his teammates could answer that. He sure was surrounded by a ton of talent....and if Yungen doesn't tear his ACL in preseason, Justin probably doesn't even get that chance.

Justin led by example....his talent. Guessing you could talk to the guys on that team and find out if he was a vocal leader in the huddle and in the locker room. Guessing not. Guessing he understood the pecking order and the way to win over his teammates was by his play. Guessing guys like Brent Steiner, John Curtis, Thad Tillison, Ben Stocker and others were the leaders of that team.

I'd call Justin Zwick the exception to the rule regarding freshmen. I think we dressed one freshman last year (Bryce)...and none this year.

RedRider1;1291686 wrote:I'm sure you meant to include Andrew Luck in your example as well...he's assumed a leadership role with the Colts too as a rookie. Regardless, high draft picks are supposed to come in & contribute right away, and high draft picks who are also quarterbacks are expected to contribute and command a presence in the huddle (i.e. lead).

As to your greater point...show me any high school football team where a freshman is a leader? Really? If any of us said that, you'd be clowning all over that comment.

14-year olds aren't leaders. They may show those characteristics, but they're not equipped to be leaders...18 year olds barely are....but in a team setting, seniors know how the program works and what is required to be successful.

Pardon me for not including Luck, P. Manning and there may well be others. It was not my intent to make it a comment concerning race. If that is how it sounded, I ask all other readers to please accept my apology.


It is a rare thing where you will find a freshman to be a leader, however, I won't say that being 14 means you "aren't" a leader no more than I would say being 18 means that you "are", even in a team setting. If the coach and his staff are constant in their efforts, than the coaching philosophy would transcend down to and through all grades. In that, success in the high school will translate to success in the JV and Elementary levels as well. Therefore, I wouldn't say that a 14 year old "can't" know and understand what it takes to be successful. Whether 14 or 18, if they want to know, they can.

RedRider1;1291706 wrote:Just talked about that team the other day....one of the greatest teams in Orrville history. Line opened holes for Dru to run wild, a strong defense and playmakers on the edge.

Not a smack to Justin...but was he truly a LEADER of that team? Only he & his teammates could answer that. He sure was surrounded by a ton of talent....and if Yungen doesn't tear his ACL in preseason, Justin probably doesn't even get that chance.




Justin led by example....his talent. Guessing you could talk to the guys on that team and find out if he was a vocal leader in the huddle and in the locker room. Guessing not. Guessing he understood the pecking order and the way to win over his teammates was by his play. Guessing guys like Brent Steiner, John Curtis, Thad Tillison, Ben Stocker and others were the leaders of that team.

I'd call Justin Zwick the exception to the rule regarding freshmen. I think we dressed one freshman last year (Bryce)...and none this year.

Talent wise I dont think that team was even in the Top 5 of Orrville teams of all time. What they did have was a refuse to lose attitude and they played well together not to mention just well coached and as disciplined a team at Orrville as we ever saw. Im not sure if Zwick was that guy either but I would love to go back and hear what he was telling guys in the huddle that last drive. They were very much like Norwayne was last year.

Series62;1291707 wrote:It is a rare thing where you will find a freshman to be a leader, however, I won't say that being 14 means you "aren't" a leader no more than I would say being 18 means that you "are", even in a team setting. If the coach and his staff are constant in their efforts, than the coaching philosophy would transcend down to and through all grades. In that, success in the high school will translate to success in the JV and Elementary levels as well. Therefore, I wouldn't say that a 14 year old "can't" know and understand what it takes to be successful. Whether 14 or 18, if they want to know, they can.

I'll agree with that....but I think a freshman walking into an environment where they're considered at the bottom of the totem pole, would be best served by letting their actions speak louder than any words.

Chase Hoobler and Mason Monheim both saw the field as freshmen...both are now playing in the Big10. Those are 2 more special individuals who obviously had the skill required to contribute. Most freshmen don't have that. And I'd argue both Hoobler and Monheim were not leaders off the field or in the locker room...but let their abilities speak for themselves.

There's simply maturity as well, physically especially that a freshman must go through. Some kids peak sooner than others. The different between freshman ball and varsity ball is a big one. If I'm a coach counting on freshman...I've got big problems.

Troll King;1291693 wrote:Well said series62 , I too wondered when he was in a Russian prison . lol

Sorry Troll and Series, I know you did not want this to go public, but I spent some time in the Gulag, when I got caught trying to sneak your mail order brides out of the country.

RedRider1;1291706 wrote:Just talked about that team the other day....one of the greatest teams in Orrville history. Line opened holes for Dru to run wild, a strong defense and playmakers on the edge.

Not a smack to Justin...but was he truly a LEADER of that team? Only he & his teammates could answer that. He sure was surrounded by a ton of talent....and if Yungen doesn't tear his ACL in preseason, Justin probably doesn't even get that chance.

Justin led by example....his talent. Guessing you could talk to the guys on that team and find out if he was a vocal leader in the huddle and in the locker room. Guessing not. Guessing he understood the pecking order and the way to win over his teammates was by his play. Guessing guys like Brent Steiner, John Curtis, Thad Tillison, Ben Stocker and others were the leaders of that team.

I'd call Justin Zwick the exception to the rule regarding freshmen. I think we dressed one freshman last year (Bryce)...and none this year.

I never said nor indicated that any of the freshman, (including #1), were leaders! I won't dismiss the possibility of that happening either. Being surrounded by talent doesn't mean you can't lead.

Unfortunate for Yungen to get injured, but obviously, Zwick knew enough of the football and program to be successful. Can you say for certain that Yungen would have had the same success, i.e., title? How do you know some other "exceptions" might have been overlooked as they weren't given ample opportunity?

I was on a basketball team my senior year and Smitty sat me down in the hallway and told me he knew it was killing me not to be starting even though my ability was the same as the "younger" kid that he was starting in front of me (I was pretty competitive and upset). Be he said he was building towards the future. He said "we aint going to go to state this year but we might next year"! He told me he really hoped I understood. It hurt me but I TOTALLY understood. And you know what IT WORKED! Two back to back state titles proves it. Now the situation at the ville today is a little different. We don't see any clear cut young talent to put in there to "get reps". We are just assuming that throwing any kid in the game would be better to get him some experience. That only works if the kid you are "throwing" in the game has the guts and testicular fortitude to understand WHY he is taking the beating he is taking ( you can also ruin a young player that way). I think everyone is frustrated and wants to see something change in the appoach to Friday nights. The old "keep doing what your doing and you will keep getting what you are getting" idea, we all want to see a change in the approach to at least try and see a differnt result. But the truth is... we are not at practice to see if any of these kids even deserve a shot under the lights. If I am going to loose anyways then I would want to loose with the kids who are bustin their buts at practice and working hard to deserve that shot on Friday night. Sacrifice = Rewards! Both the Zwich brothers were special kids and very mature for their ages and that is why it worked (besides the fact that they were very talented kids). combine that with what arguably may have been some of the most talent loaded teams ever and there ya go. And I learned a long time ago that good "players" do not always make good "leaders"! I saw this first hand.

Go get em Riders, lets close out strong! You can tell by this thread that we are all passionate about our Riders!

RedRider1;1291715 wrote:I'll agree with that....but I think a freshman walking into an environment where they're considered at the bottom of the totem pole, would be best served by letting their actions speak louder than any words.

Chase Hoobler and Mason Monheim both saw the field as freshmen...both are now playing in the Big10. Those are 2 more special individuals who obviously had the skill required to contribute. Most freshmen don't have that. And I'd argue both Hoobler and Monheim were not leaders off the field or in the locker room...but let their abilities speak for themselves.

There's simply maturity as well, physically especially that a freshman must go through. Some kids peak sooner than others. The different between freshman ball and varsity ball is a big one. If I'm a coach counting on freshman...I've got big problems.

See how you continually refute your own comments! Again, not all freshman, but there are some!

If they are "considered at the bottom of the totem pole" how can they're actions speak if not given a real opportunity. There again is why I say, at the beginning of each season, allow an open and fair competition for each position. They'll reveal themselves!

sanitizer;1291733 wrote:I was on a basketball team my senior year and Smitty sat me down in the hallway and told me he knew it was killing me not to be starting even though my ability was the same as the "younger" kid that he was starting in front of me (I was pretty competitive and upset). Be he said he was building towards the future. He said "we aint going to go to state this year but we might next year"! He told me he really hoped I understood. It hurt me but I TOTALLY understood. And you know what IT WORKED! Two back to back state titles proves it. Now the situation at the ville today is a little different. We don't see any clear cut young talent to put in there to "get reps". We are just assuming that throwing any kid in the game would be better to get him some experience. That only works if the kid you are "throwing" in the game has the guts and testicular fortitude to understand WHY he is taking the beating he is taking ( you can also ruin a young player that way). I think everyone is frustrated and wants to see something change in the appoach to Friday nights. The old "keep doing what your doing and you will keep getting what you are getting" idea, we all want to see a change in the approach to at least try and see a differnt result. But the truth is... we are not at practice to see if any of these kids even deserve a shot under the lights. If I am going to loose anyways then I would want to loose with the kids who are bustin their buts at practice and working hard to deserve that shot on Friday night. Sacrifice = Rewards! Both the Zwich brothers were special kids and very mature for their ages and that is why it worked (besides the fact that they were very talented kids). combine that with what arguably may have been some of the most talent loaded teams ever and there ya go. And I learned a long time ago that good "players" do not always make good "leaders"! I saw this first hand.

Go get em Riders, lets close out strong! You can tell by this thread that we are all passionate about our Riders!

Great post. I think you missed your calling. You could be giving those pregame speeches on Friday night. You of all people know what hard work gets you. All this from a kid who grew up on the south side of "the tracks"

Red Rider Nation;1291763 wrote:...All this from a kid who grew up on the south side of "the tracks"

"they're considered at the bottom of the totem pole"

We need to STOP evaluating people based on their age, origins, etc, etc,

Series62;1291750 wrote:See how you continually refute your own comments! Again, not all freshman, but there are some!

If they are "considered at the bottom of the totem pole" how can they're actions speak if not given a real opportunity. There again is why I say, at the beginning of each season, allow an open and fair competition for each position. They'll reveal themselves!

Freshmen prove themselves in freshman ball. If they're that good it will show itself. Then they'll get the same opportunity at JV.

They also have an entire offseason of lifting and making themselves better to show the coaches that they're ready to make an impact. Next year starts the day after the Wooster game....unfortunately some kids will wait around until August 1st of 2013 to start preparing and then it's too late.

RedRider1;1291789 wrote:Freshmen prove themselves in freshman ball. If they're that good it will show itself. Then they'll get the same opportunity at JV.

They also have an entire offseason of lifting and making themselves better to show the coaches that they're ready to make an impact. Next year starts the day after the Wooster game....unfortunately some kids will wait around until August 1st of 2013 to start preparing and then it's too late.

I can dig all of that! I'm not saying you have them now. I'm also saying that they do come along once in a while!

Troll King;1291704 wrote:No I am not one of those people. I am however someone who thinks if the people on the field are not getting it done maybe you should give one of those kids on the sideline a chance . You know the ones that you say should never see the field . Who knows maybe they can do just as good a job as the ones on the field they certainly probably couldn't do much worse . I can only imagine the rebuttal That myself, red Rider nation, or Series62 would've gotten if we would've made that statement About players not seeing the field Unless it's a blowout .

So play them all this week and see what happens. Maybe we can get out scored by 80 pts. Do you really think the coaches are not putting the best players on the field? All week in practice these kids have the opportunity to impress and earn a spot. They have not and that is why they are not on the field.

rrfan;1291853 wrote:So play them all this week and see what happens. Maybe we can get out scored by 80 pts. Do you really think the coaches are not putting the best players on the field? All week in practice these kids have the opportunity to impress and earn a spot. They have not and that is why they are not on the field.

Read back a few pages and you'll see that we've already covered this conversation.

Series62;1291861 wrote:Read back a few pages and you'll see that we've already covered this conversation.

Are you and Troll the same person? If you read back a few pages you will notice I posted on those pages...you idiot.

rrfan;1291872 wrote:Are you and Troll the same person? If you read back a few pages you will notice I posted on those pages...you idiot.

No, we aren't the same person!

I know you've posted on the pages, and we've had that discussion, if you don't remember, reread your posts!

That you call me an idiot is funny! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!

The argument that "it could get no worse" is one I disagree with...if we just start throwing kids out there someone is going to end up hurt.

Plus we don't have some magic team of 2nd stringers just waiting to make an impact. The sooner everyone realize that the best kids we have are out there the more we can discuss things that truly matter.

Several names have been mentioned as kids who we'd like to see more but that's an ideal world...we aren't at practice & don't see what the coaches see. Lets let them put the best 11 on the field and support the kids regardless.

Again...if we're all Red Riders, that should be easy to do.

I don't necessarily think we need to see "all new faces" on the field because I think we are playing the best of what we have to choose from...and that is VERY SLIM PICKINGS!!! Just maybe a shake-up in where kids play position wise???

I know first hand that the coaches have been frustrated with several of these young talented kids because its week 8 and they are still having to be told where to line-up and what to do on certain plays. That to me is just kids not focussed...IMO.

Lets just face the fact that we are not good and do not have many football minded kids on this team.

Thus...1-6

we aren't at practice & don't see what the coaches see. Lets let them put the best 11 on the field and support the kids regardless.

Again...if we're all Red Riders, that should be easy to do.

This is really where it all starts and stops in my mind. The rest is just talk for Mrs. J's in they morning (if people still do that)? LOL!

football minded kids

This is more uncommon than many of us want to think it is! AKA, football IQ, or "he is always where the ball is"...

Look out Series learned how to do big font and bold it.

sanitizer;1291990 wrote:This is really where it all starts and stops in my mind. The rest is just talk for Mrs. J's in they morning (if people still do that)? LOL!

That's all this site is....but at Mrs. J's what people say isn't written on the wall for everyone to read like it is here.

Everyone grumbles and plays Saturday morning quarterback over their biscuits & gravy and that's that.

g

RedRider1;1291706 wrote:Just talked about that team the other day....one of the greatest teams in Orrville history. Line opened holes for Dru to run wild, a strong defense and playmakers on the edge.

Not a smack to Justin...but was he truly a LEADER of that team? Only he & his teammates could answer that. He sure was surrounded by a ton of talent....and if Yungen doesn't tear his ACL in preseason, Justin probably doesn't even get that chance.

Justin led by example....his talent. Guessing you could talk to the guys on that team and find out if he was a vocal leader in the huddle and in the locker room. Guessing not. Guessing he understood the pecking order and the way to win over his teammates was by his play. Guessing guys like Brent Steiner, John Curtis, Thad Tillison, Ben Stocker and others were the leaders of that team.

I'd call Justin Zwick the exception to the rule regarding freshmen. I think we dressed one freshman last year (Bryce)...and none this year.

One of the greatest, how many other state championship teams did we have ?

Taking nothing from the '98 team and their title but we have had some great teams here. Many many great teams before six divisions. Even as recent as the late 70's teams when ohsaa had only three divisions and I think only 4 or 8 teams made playoffs from each division. And prior those teams, the late 60s teams were also amazing. Mo always said his most talented team was the year they lost state title in columbus ith Bolyard, Denson, and others. State title team was definitely a great team but not the only one by far.

That 83 through 85 stretch could have arguably produced 3 straight titles if not for BISHOP Ready...Elyria CATHOLIC & SAINT Francis DeSales.

I think we've lost to the eventual state champ like 8 or 9 times in the playoffs.