Commander of Awesome;877366 wrote:No spin control needed Frodo. I can also point to players like Jerry Rice, TO, Farve, Emmitt Smith etc.. that played well into their mid 30s + without every missing a season. How does that fit into your away from the game 2 years BS? How do you factor in a Kajana Carter? lolfail, just admit it was idiotic statement/dumb assumption and move on.

How exactly would those players discredit his theory? If anything they show that even without 2 years out of the game players can continue to be successful if superior athletes like Jerry Rice or Emmitt Smith (I'm not going to include Favre in this category).

This goes to Bill Simmons theory on Basketball players... after a certain amount of games... I believe he has it at 1,000 or something like that, the body just begins breaking down. If transferred to football, Ricky Williams and Michael Vick have missed a year or two from the pounding of football practice and games. And because of that they aged relatively less than their counterparts physically.

Does this mean the Vick deal is a good deal? No... I think it's too long. But there is merit to the idea that the time spent away from the game aged them less comparatively than they would have if they had been playing those years spent away.

You're missing the point C4F. He said that him missing the game somehow adds additional years to his career. Since vick didn't play for 2 years he somehow magically has an additional 2 extra years, which is a joke/fail assumption. Its just a bad analogy that people use/repeat it bc some moron on BSPN said it. Its a fail argument.

I dont really know the new CBA, but they still dont have guaranteed contracts. So, as always, the years dont matter at all. The thing that will remain the big issue is the guaranteed money. 40 Million of which is ridiculous imo.

Years in length arent the biggest thing...it is the guarenteed money and how the contracts affect the cap. I think we ALL will be surprised if he is stillin philly, or even in the nfl, in 6 years. Just the nature of the game.

Players and teams and agents know that he wont see the full contract in philly. They just make it a longer deal, make it loook good....100 million sounds cool and focus on the guarenteed money.

Missing two years doesnt automatically add two years. Skills erode as ya get older. Just how it goes. Some players compensate for the erosion in skills by becoming a better student of the game. They get older, and they 'play smarter, not harder' type of thing. A WR may not be able to use his speed anymore, but he can work on better route running.

A QB may not be able to sling it as hard downfield so instead he learns better how to read defenses, is smarter in blitz calls, better at audibles, instead of throwing a ball 100MPh into a tight spot he is better at throwing the ball away from the defender to the receiver back shoulder or what not.

The truly great players can evolve as their skills erode some.

Can vick do that?

The only thing that missing two years will benefit Vick is the abuse his body takes as a result of his style of play. I also think the deal was a bit long and the 40 mil guaranteed is crazy, but you have to think that Philly took the 2 years off into consideration when coming up with this current deal.

He plays reckless as hell anyway and could go down any play, so I don't think the 2 years off point is that big of a deal anyway.

thavoice;877437 wrote:Missing two years doesnt automatically add two years. Skills erode as ya get older. Just how it goes. Some players compensate for the erosion in skills by becoming a better student of the game. They get older, and they 'play smarter, not harder' type of thing. A WR may not be able to use his speed anymore, but he can work on better route running.

A QB may not be able to sling it as hard downfield so instead he learns better how to read defenses, is smarter in blitz calls, better at audibles, instead of throwing a ball 100MPh into a tight spot he is better at throwing the ball away from the defender to the receiver back shoulder or what not.

The truly great players can evolve as their skills erode some.

Can vick do that?

It looked to me like he certainly did that last year

Commander of Awesome;877429 wrote:You're missing the point C4F. He said that him missing the game somehow adds additional years to his career. Since vick didn't play for 2 years he somehow magically has an additional 2 extra years, which is a joke/fail assumption. Its just a bad analogy that people use/repeat it bc some moron on BSPN said it. Its a fail argument.

I agree that it's stupid to assume (edit: not sure why I got awesome out of assume the first time around) that he will get 2 years of his prime back... but his career will most likely be lengthened by a bit because he didn't take the physical pounding in practice and in games for 2 years... which is the point.

There is merit to the idea that he would be at a worse spot now if he played 2 years instead of not playing.

Fly4Fun;877694 wrote: There is merit to the idea that he would be at a worse spot now if he played 2 years instead of not playing.

Exactly

Sorry, but after a certain age you just lose your legs. Being in prison 2 years does not give your legs extra life, especially for a QB who relies on them so much.

like_that;877754 wrote:Sorry, but after a certain age you just lose your legs. Being in prison 2 years does not give your legs extra life, especially for a QB who relies on them so much.

Does a running back not rely on his legs? Didn't Ricky Williams become one of only a few running backs in NFL history to rush for over 1000 yards in a season after the age of 30? Is Ricky Williams one of the most talented backs of all time? No. So then why was he able to do what so many others have not? Because he had an extra two years of fresh legs.

I'm not saying 2 years will automatically be extended onto Vick's career, but at the same time he's not your typical 31 year old quarterback in terms of getting leveled by NFL defensemen. To disagree with that is, imo, illogical.

lhslep134;877762 wrote:Does a running back not rely on his legs? Didn't Ricky Williams become one of only a few running backs in NFL history to rush for over 1000 yards in a season after the age of 30? Is Ricky Williams one of the most talented backs of all time? No. So then why was he able to do what so many others have not? Because he had an extra two years of fresh legs.

You're talking about Heisman winning RB who also led the NFL in rushing. He was an elite talent, nice fail frodo.

Also by your logic I guess Emmit Smith should have taken years off?

Commander of Awesome;877809 wrote:You're talking about Heisman winning RB who also led the NFL in rushing. He was an elite talent, nice fail frodo.

Not only that, but it was more the scheme that got him those yards. He would have had the same numbers if he didn't take 2 years off.

Vick probably put almost as much strain on his body in prison as he would have had he been out. I'd imagine he was playing basketball, working out, etc every single day for many hours each day without the comfort of top notch equipment and a training staff. It's not like he's a lineman or RB where he gets nailed all the time in practice and during games.

Commander of Awesome;877809 wrote:You're talking about Heisman winning RB who also led the NFL in rushing. He was an elite talent

A. Vick is also an elite talent, so thanks for proving my point.
B. Only twice did Ricky average a ypc higher than 4.5--in 2002 when he first joined the Dolphins, and in 2009 at the age of 32. (which addresses like_that's argument)

You still have yet to show me any evidence contrary to my point.

dave;877818 wrote:Vick probably put almost as much strain on his body in prison as he would have had he been out. I'd imagine he was playing basketball, working out, etc every single day for many hours each day without the comfort of top notch equipment and a training staff. It's not like he's a lineman or RB where he gets nailed all the time in practice and during games.

So how come everyone who plays basketball and works out often isn't crippled in some way like so many NFL alumni? Sooo you're saying playing basketball (not professionally) and working out is almost as much strain as getting hit so many days a year by NFL players? GTFO that's so dumb I don't even know how you can even think that.

lhslep134;877821 wrote:A. Vick is also an elite talent, so thanks for proving my point.
B. Only twice did Ricky average a ypc higher than 4.5--in 2002 when he first joined the Dolphins, and in 2009 at the age of 32. (which addresses like_that's argument)

You still have yet to show me any evidence contrary to my point.

Yeah, that actually supports my argument regarding the scheme. Thanks.

lhslep134;877822 wrote:So how come everyone who plays basketball and works out often isn't crippled in some way like so many NFL alumni? Sooo you're saying playing basketball (not professionally) and working out is almost as much strain as getting hit 16 days a year by NFL players? GTFO that's so dumb I don't even know how you can even think that.

who are these former nfl qb's that are crippled? very few

like_that;877823 wrote:Yeah, that actually supports my argument regarding the scheme. Thanks.

How so? If it was the same scheme, he should have averaged close to the same YPC every year, except he didn't. He only did his first year there, and his first year back. Different coordinators, different schemes.

dave;877827 wrote:who are these former nfl qb's that are crippled? very few

But they still exist. But according to you, playing basketball and working out will do almost the same thing. Seriously stop talking if you're going to bring that garbage to this thread. At least say something that can be construed as semi-intelligent, not pure nonsense.

At least like_that and COA are bringing up rational counter arguments, but then you come in here with that crap? My god.

lhslep134;877829 wrote:How so? If it was the same scheme, he should have averaged close to the same YPC every year, except he didn't. He only did his first year there, and his first year back. Different coordinators, different schemes.

My point is the Dolphins scheme (wildcat), helped an older RB rush for over 1000 yards. Might as well just drop the subject. You can't definitively prove that being away 2 years helped, and I can't definitively prove that the scheme helped.

like_that;877833 wrote:My point is the Dolphins scheme (wildcat), helped an older RB rush for over 1000 yards. Might as well just drop the subject. You can't definitively prove that being away 2 years helped, and I can't definitively prove that the scheme helped.

They didn't run the wildcat as much with Ricky because it was tailored around Ronnie Brown. When Brown got injured, Ricky stepped up as a traditional back and had a historic year. His YPC slowly creept down from 4.6 the year he led the NFL (2002), but then all of a sudden shoots back up after taking 2 years off.

Even if you don't want to admit definitively the reason is because he took 2 years off (which I'll obviously respect), the facts do point towards that as a reasonable conclusion.

With Vick, he also had a career year last year, but I think that had more to do with a more mature attitude, and the humbling that took place. It remains to be seen how long into this 6 year deal his body will last, so in that sense I guess it's a moot argument.


I still can't get over how dumb Dave's comment was.

lhslep134;877837 wrote:They didn't run the wildcat as much with Ricky because it was tailored around Ronnie Brown. When Brown got injured, Ricky stepped up as a traditional back and had a historic year. His YPC slowly creept down from 4.6 the year he led the NFL (2002), but then all of a sudden shoots back up after taking 2 years off.

Even if you don't want to admit definitively the reason is because he took 2 years off (which I'll obviously respect), the facts do point towards that as a reasonable conclusion.

With Vick, he also had a career year last year, but I think that had more to do with a more mature attitude, and the humbling that took place. It remains to be seen how long into this 6 year deal his body will last, so in that sense I guess it's a moot argument.


I still can't get over how dumb Dave's comment was.

I can vouch for this, i'm a Fin's fan and when Ronnie went down that year we pretty much scrapped the wildcat.

lhslep134;877831 wrote:But they still exist. But according to you, playing basketball and working out will do almost the same thing. Seriously stop talking if you're going to bring that garbage to this thread. At least say something that can be construed as semi-intelligent, not pure nonsense.

At least like_that and COA are bringing up rational counter arguments, but then you come in here with that crap? My god.

lol coming from someone saying Ricky Williams wasn't one of the most talented guys.

QBs are babied, you act like missing 2 years saved him from fighting mike tyson every weekend. He takes very few direct hits, and has a week to recover for 4 months each year. He's rarely knocked down in practice. Playing streetball in prison will have a similar affect to the wear and tear on his body other than lack of concussion likelihood.

There's a reason good QBs usually last til around 40 and RBs and linemen are done early. It's not because they all went to prison for 2 years.

Dave that's not why you're stupid. You're stupid because you said working out and playing basketball is almost as stressful on the body as playing in the NFL for 2 years. That is honestly one of the most absurd and stupid things I have ever read about any subject. The ignorance in that statement is laughable at the very least, and downright mentally challenged.


Oh and now you're saying Ricky is one of the most talented backs of all time? Come on, that's ridiculous. He's a very good back, but one of the most talented?

And don't cite because he won the Heisman, because Ron Dayne won the Heisman the following year and what exactly did he do in the NFL?

Please, continue on, because you're making me laugh harder and harder with each post.