dwccrew;762492 wrote:I still can't believe that some people believe that their hatred is based upon the notion that we are free. They hate us because of our support of Israel and our foreign policy in that region.

Writerbuckeye;762589 wrote:Yep. I'd believe anything OBL said. He never lied, I'm just sure of it.

ptown_trojans_1;762727 wrote:Ehh, saying al Qaeda hates us because of our freedoms makes little sense when you look at what the terrorists actually say. The reasons are a mixed bag really, depending on what particular issue that group or sub group finds most important to them. There is no one large movement, just a ton of medium to smaller movements that all have their own agenda's.

believer;762751 wrote:Perhaps but al Qaeda, the Taliban, etc. are Islamofascists nonetheless. The Nazis, the Mussolini fascists, and the Japanese militarists all had different agendas but they were united in wanting fascist world domination.

Make no mistake about it...radical fascist Islam exists and it's a definite threat. I don't give a damn how "splintered" the movement may be.

ptown_trojans_1;762763 wrote:We disagree on this, which is fine, but I see the movement differently than you do. It is still a massive threat, that we agree on.

O-Trap;761881 wrote:Actually, correlation doesn't prove causation, so there is. I'm not suggesting that we should have gone over, but once we're over there, it would be foolish to leave something that is ready to collapse.

I would honestly defer to the troops over there. If they are there because they're following orders, and they don't think they should be, then we should come home. If they believe that we're there to accomplish something, and that the reasons are good ones, I say we stay.

I'm not naive enough to think that I know all the reasons we're there, or that I know all the factors involved, which is why I haven't gotten that vigorously into this discussion. However, I would suggest that using the increased attempted attacks on our soil is a counterproductive argument thus far, because our defense has pitched a shutout to date against them since we've been over there.

dwccrew;762492 wrote:I still can't believe that some people believe that their hatred is based upon the notion that we are free. They hate us because of our support of Israel and our foreign policy in that region.

ptown_trojans_1;762727 wrote:Ehh, saying al Qaeda hates us because of our freedoms makes little sense when you look at what the terrorists actually say. The reasons are a mixed bag really, depending on what particular issue that group or sub group finds most important to them. There is no one large movement, just a ton of medium to smaller movements that all have their own agenda's.

Like everything in life, no one broad saying fits reality.
OBL hated America for many reasons that included troops on Saudi soil, support for Israel, America's dominance in the world, support for Arab regimes (which now includes the new ones as well) and support for the Pakistani regime.

A nice piece on OBL by Peter Bergen, who I used to work under at New America. He knows his stuff as interviewed Bin Laden in 97.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-osama-bin-laden/2011/05/05/AFkG1rAG_story.html

Footwedge;762964 wrote:And this perpetual pile of putrid propaganda keeps the warmongerers happy. And then you have the posters that say...."well, bin Ladin lied". Huh? Why in the fuck would he lie? I challenge believer, WB, and any other here to search the big ole internet....and find one lousy fuggin, stinkin quote from him stating that the reason he attacked America is because his terrorist group hates our freedoms.

I thought on this forum...if you make a claim...you need to source it. When I make a claim, I always source it....when asked to do so.

gut;762108 wrote:No, I undertand it quite well - and I mean, shit, lets just go back to the middle ages and blame the Crusades while we're at it. I disagree with you that it is motivated by politics, especially when they use radical Islam as their basis where, at it's twisted heart is the belief Muslims should rule the world and non-muslims are a second-tier lifeform.

Terrorism is not officially sanctioned - it can't be political in the sense it's not a political/sovereign tool. In that regard they are not that different from Timothy McVeigh's group. The leaders of such groups are almost always in it for the power and are not true believers - they ask people to be martyrs but when it comes to themself they hid and run. Speaking and acting like a politician while not using political means to your goals pretty much says it all.

I think it's naive not to acknowledge the problem runs much deeper than politics. Most every country has its own homegrown dissidents. It's not hard to find a group somewhere that disagrees with some political or economic policy. I reject the idea that if we were/are hands-off the middle east that terrorism magically disappears. It will just become US economic policy keeping them down - there will always be a "reason" because you have people looking for a reason. In a global world it's impossible not to give ammunition to these dissident groups. And what you really have are people gaining power by exploiting the poor and ignorant, and the Koran.

believer;762773 wrote:I understand what you're saying, but being "fractured" only means they have the influence and power to seek "restricted goals." Sugar coat it all you want but the deep, underlying purpose in all of radical Islam is the desire to see a world dominated by Sharia Law (IE: Islamic-style fascism).

Footwedge;762957 wrote:We have pitched a shutout....because we no longer have our pants down. According to Richard Clarke, our counterterroris czar during the Clinton and Bush 43 admins, nobody gave a shat about bin Ladin and his terrorism, Clarke warned Bush, Condi, Wolfowicz and the rest 6 weeks before 9-11. They told Clark to pound salt.

O Trap....you claim to admire Ron Paul. Why? Paul is in my corner on this issue.....just as our CIA is in my corner. When you occupy foreign lands, steal their money by propping puppets in their lands, you will piss off people.

The number of successful (sic) terrorist attacks around the globe have tripled since 9-11....mostly on countries that are friendly towards us. Great Britain, Spain and India come to mind.

Footwedge;762981 wrote:Source that! Don't spew that kind of baloney without a true credible source. The propaganda that has permeated your brain is frightening, quite frankly.

Footwedge;762981 wrote:if the US were a country....with only one marketable commodity (oil), and some foreignors placed their puppet to run my country, there would be millions of pissed off Americans as the wealth was stolen from under our noses. And let me tell ya....religion would play no fuckinn role in doing whatever it took to get the carpetbaggers the fuck out of my country.

The fact that this flies right over your head proves to me that you have very little history knowledge regarding the Middle East.

Footwedge;761833 wrote:How exactly is there morality different? They are extremists that are at war with people they believe have stolen and robbed from them. They do not possess tanks, B-52's, or stealth equipment. They are war mongers....just as we are. They love war...just as we do. They use military tactics that suit their budget and their needs. The Irish Catholics used the same tactics. Or the Lehi Group, an Al Quada clone Israeli group of terrorists operated by none other than Menachin Begin in the 1930's.

Footwedge;761833 wrote:So it's our job to police the whole goddam world because of some perceived notion that if we don't do it, rogues will? Bear in mind, we owe over 14 trillion dollars to countries, banks, and other entities...money that we don't have.

Footwedge;761833 wrote:Spark...you and I have had this discussion before. You believe that the human instict is to be barbaric. History has shown so far that you are correct. But here's an idea. How about no world hegemons running shit? Everybody takes care of themselves?

Footwedge;761833 wrote:I am not your dad's age...I am your age.

Footwedge;761833 wrote:IIf your goals are what you have listed above, then you must understand that the cost of world dominance is bankrupting the future of your kids and grand kids. Our standard of living is digressing....and there is no stopping this economic runaway train to complete and total economic destruction.

majorspark;763025 wrote:Its bought us about 70yrs of less world violence.

Footwedge;762990 wrote:Yaeh...the radical Islamites are gonna ovverrun the world with their tanks, bombers, and what? Their navy seals? LMAO. Gimme a break. You don't actuially believe that horse shit, do you?

Footwedge;761803 wrote:I am not defending Osama bin Ladin in any stretch. He is mass murderer. What I am saying is that that he gave specific reasons for his actions. These actions were political....and not religious...as you erroneously suggested. As for your "power and control" statement....I don't think that had anything to do with anything.

Footwedge;761833 wrote:
So it's our job to police the whole goddam world because of some perceived notion that if we don't do it, rogues will? Bear in mind, we owe over 14 trillion dollars to countries, banks, and other entities...money that we don't have. Spark...you and I have had this discussion before. You believe that the human instict is to be barbaric. History has shown so far that you are correct. But here's an idea. How about no world hegemons running shit? Everybody takes care of themselves?

dwccrew;762492 wrote: This is simply not true. Osama Bin Laden even stated that if the US removed its armies from the land of Mohammed that only then would there be peace. It was never about religion. Now I am not justifying OBL's actions at all, just stating what he was quoted as listing as the reason for his hatred towards the west. It was never because we are "free", it's because we have had a military and political influence in the ME for decades and it has backfired on us.

I still can't believe that some people believe that their hatred is based upon the notion that we are free. They hate us because of our support of Israel and our foreign policy in that region.

Saudi Arabia – Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bibles are illegal. Churches are illegal. Easter celebrations are illegal. It is punishable by death for a non-mulsim to enter the “holy” muslim cities of Medina and Mecca.
Yemen – Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims and forbids conversions. The Government does not allow the building of new non-Muslim places of worship.
Kuwait – Registration and licensing of religious groups. Members of religions not sanctioned in the Koran may not build places of worship. Prohibits organized religious education for religions other than Islam.
Egypt – Islam is the official state religion and primary source of legislation. Accordingly, religious practices that conflict with Islamic law are prohibited. Muslims may face legal problems if they convert to another faith. Requires non-Muslims to obtain what is now a presidential decree to build a place of worship.
Algeria – The law prohibits public assembly for purposes of practicing a faith other than Islam. Non-Islamic proselytizing is illegal, and the Government restricts the importation of non-Islamic literature for distribution. The country has passed the “Regulation of Religious Practice” law, which stipulates a punishment of two to five years’ imprisonment and heavy fines for anyone convicted of urging a Muslim to change his religion.
Syria – The constitution requires the president to be a Muslim and specifies that Islamic jurisprudence is a principal source of legislation. Sharing your Christian faith is discouraged as &#8220osing a threat to the relations among religious groups” and carries a penalty of up to life in prison. A Christian is not allowed to proselytize – ever. Churches who want to hold an extra service must get a government permit. Sermons are routinely monitored, as is church fundraising.
Jordan – Has the death penalty for any Muslim selling land to a Jew.
Sudan – Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death.
Pakistan – Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims. Christians regularly put in prison for charges of blasphemy. Islam is the state religion, and in a court of law the testimony of a Christian carries less weight than that of a Muslim. Section 295(c) of the Penal Code calls for a death sentence for anyone who defiles the name of the Prophet Muhammad and requires the testimony of four Muslims for a conviction. This fosters an environment in which Muslims can feel free to use intimidation and violence against religious minorities for personal gain. Also, if any criminal Muslim rape with any Christian female and then take plea that she has accepted Islam and marry with him. Such person is not culpable under Pakistani criminal law
Qatar – Islamic instruction is compulsory in public schools. The government regulates the publication, importation, and distribution of non-Islamic religious literature. The government continues to prohibit proselytizing of Muslims by non-Muslims.
Malaysia – Under Malaysian law, any convert to Christianity must apply to a shariah (Muslim law) court to legally renounce Islam. Many Christians prefer to remain silent converts rather than take their battle to the shariah courts, where apostasy or conversion out of Islam is punishable by whipping, fines, imprisonment and—in the most extreme application—death. In a country where Muslims account for more than half of the population, conversion from Islam is punished with a 5-year prison sentence and a $3,000 fine. A Malaysian Muslim who marries a non-Muslim and who converts the non-Muslim to Islam is rewarded with an apartment, a car, a one-time payment of $2,700, and a monthly stipend of $270.
The Maldives – In the island paradise visited by tens of thousands of tourists each year, Christianity is simply not tolerated. While local Christians – said to number around 300 out of a total population of 300,000 – do get together to worship, they do so at the risk of imprisonment or worse if discovered by the Muslim authorities. Bibles are banned, and tourists can be arrested for trying to bring them into the country.

ptown_trojans_1;762727 wrote:Ehh, saying al Qaeda hates us because of our freedoms makes little sense when you look at what the terrorists actually say. The reasons are a mixed bag really, depending on what particular issue that group or sub group finds most important to them. There is no one large movement, just a ton of medium to smaller movements that all have their own agenda's.

Like everything in life, no one broad saying fits reality.
OBL hated America for many reasons that included troops on Saudi soil, support for Israel, America's dominance in the world, support for Arab regimes (which now includes the new ones as well) and support for the Pakistani regime.

A nice piece on OBL by Peter Bergen, who I used to work under at New America. He knows his stuff as interviewed Bin Laden in 97.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-osama-bin-laden/2011/05/05/AFkG1rAG_story.html

jhay78;763226 wrote:


I still don't understand how that's viewed as a "non-religious" argument.