One thing should be noted...this isnt all on Dolan. The Indians drafting has been shit....complete and utter shit. And when he has opened up the check book...Shapiro overpaid for Wood(10 mil) and Hafner(13 mil). Shapiro hung his hat on a couple of fleecings of teams, but he had some real bad trades as well.

jordo212000;732052 wrote:You guys are going to be fine. Keep developing pitching and then use some of that Hafner money on some other pieces. I seriously think the Tribe will contending in the Central next season. I'm not trolling or anything. I just hate to see people trash their team 3 games into the season, especially when there is some great young talent you could be watching. As Reds and Indians fans, we aren't ever sure how long we'll get to see them, so you need to take advantage while you can.

I still go to see them, I just wait until August when I can get tickets directly behind home plate, 4 rows up for $28 apiece on Stubhub (worked well for me last year).

jordo212000;732042 wrote:Say what you will about their attendance, they never ever had fewer than 10,000 people at the stadium during the first week of the season. If fans aren't going now, how many will be there in July and August?

They aren't making the playoffs, but their offense should put up some runs. Fanbases who only want to show up when their teams are World Series contenders make me laugh. I love watching Choo and Santana hit.

So as a Bengals fan do you laugh at your own fan base?

wes_mantooth;732058 wrote:One thing should be noted...this isnt all on Dolan. The Indians drafting has been shit....complete and utter shit. And when he has opened up the check book...Shapiro overpaid for Wood(10 mil) and Hafner(13 mil). Shapiro hung his hat on a couple of fleecings of teams, but he had some real bad trades as well.

Agreed. Big or small market, success largely depends on your drafting ability. Go look at the small market teams who have experienced success. It is largely dependent on how they do in the draft (Rays, Reds, A's, Twins before the new ballpark, etc.) all got to where they were because of what they did in the draft.

When you trade guys like Cliff Lee and CC Sabathia, you have to get back more than what Shapiro did.

like_that;732065 wrote:So as a Bengals fan do you laugh at your own fan base?

When did we have 7,000 fans attending the 3rd game of the season? Go look back and read all of my posts. Not once did I say that people expect teams to sell out every single game.

I know you like to point out when the Bengals get blacked out, but if you look at their attendance numbers, there has been a great deal of support for the team. Especially when you consider the circumstances (20 years of mismanagement)

jordo212000;732071 wrote:When did we have 7,000 fans attending the 3rd game of the season? Go look back and read all of my posts. Not once did I say that people expect teams to sell out every single game.

I know you like to point out when the Bengals get blacked out, but if you look at their attendance numbers, there has been a great deal of support for the team. Especially when you consider the circumstances (20 years of mismanagement)

Yeah there is "great" support for the team when they are doing well, and contending for a playoff spot, which you said is laughable when fans only show up at the time. All the other times I recall many blacked out games and empty stadiums. Even more pathetic when there are only 8 home games per season as oppose to 81.

LOL at Cincy and Cleveland fans arguing over fan support. Both fan bases are a joke. hahahaaaaa

jordo212000;732069 wrote:Agreed. Big or small market, success largely depends on your drafting ability. Go look at the small market teams who have experienced success. It is largely dependent on how they do in the draft (Rays, Reds, A's, Twins before the new ballpark, etc.) all got to where they were because of what they did in the draft.

When you trade guys like Cliff Lee and CC Sabathia, you have to get back more than what Shapiro did.

Well, the CC trade appears to be a bust, but he was gone after the season so they got what they could...LaPorta was well regarded at the time. Brantley may end up being decent. The Cliff Lee trade is the head scratcher. There was a year left and they were in a hurry to unload him for whatever for some reason.

There is one other move that puzzled me....they shipped Kevin Kouzmanoff off because they were determined that Marte was the future....without him ever playing a major league game. Not that Kouzmanoff is a superstar, but he was definitely serviceable.

Art Modell;732096 wrote:LOL at Cincy and Cleveland fans arguing over fan support. Both fan bases are a joke. hahahaaaaa

you are lucky that you are a mod...or I would think this is trolling.

Attendance usually depends on how well a team is playing. Thats hows its always been. Tribe attendance was awful last year, so were they. According to ESPN the Reds currently rank 7th in total attendance, although this doesnt mean much because half the teams havent had a home game. Anyways, in 2009 they ranked 27th. The only thing that has changed is the product on the field.

Considering how certain people seem to assume that posters who aren't a fan of their team(s) are trolls when they comment on threads about said team(s), it would make sense that those people act with consistency. Such as on a thread concerning a particular hockey team where people who aren't fans of that team are quite active in taking a "devil's advocate" tone in pointing out any potential negative scenario that could happen while attempting the defense of "you're a homer who can't accept a non-homer view" when anyone gets pissed. Seems like others could use that same defense when those sorts use words like "controllbution" because someone else pointed out crappy attendance.

8k a game is really bad. i hate dolan as much as the next guy but the players deserve better than 8,000 in attendance. i'm planning on going up there some time in the next week or so

Sorry, but as an owner...you have to spend money to make money. Your job is to win. If you only care about making money, dont fucking buy a sports team....

That said, you have to blame the GM and others who have drafted terribly, and made some horrible trades (even the smaller ones), and signings. But Dolan and his ability to not sign anyone of note and run our best players out of town is a huge reason why fans are "boycotting" this team.

It is a combimation of bad drafts and bad trades that have sent this team to the point of where it's at now. Up until the last 3 years, their drafts have been terrible. They do have some very good pitching prospects close to being ML ready. But, they aren't ready yet. We may see White sometime this year. Pomeranz is the real deal. But we won't see him for another year. Jason Knapp and Nick Hagadone are pitchers with great stuff, but haven't been able to stay healthy or move up as fast as they should have. With the young talent already on this team, they aren't that far away from being a very good team. Starting pitching is the question as it is for almost every team. The bullpen looks to be as good as it was last year, if not better. And the offense already looks like it will score runs.
The attendance will be there when they see a team that is competitive. All you have to do is look at the past. If this team were to start winning, you would see it this year. I'd bet my last penny on it. It's that way in every city. Winning brings in fans.

Art Modell;732096 wrote:LOL the pirates aren't any good so I wont be a front runner and support them. That way I can still act like pittsburgh is god's gift to sports hahahaaaaa

interesting...

Commander of Awesome;732013 wrote:Also 18 posts in tribes threads to 7 in Reds threads. Nice trolling FAILdo212000.

justincredible;732054 wrote:How many posts do you have in the Penguins thread?

This was never answered...

I have been attending Indians games since the early 1970's. I was at the game when Frank Robinson debuted as player/manager, I had my first sip of beer at an Indians game (A warm P.O.C. my firend's dad left in the cup while he went to the restroom), I have been in crowds of 8,000 people at Municipal Stadium. I tell you all that to tell you this, this trend in attendence and talent is a cycle. I think the Indians like perhaps other teams really have two sets of fans, the die hard fans, and the fair weathered fans. Sadly, in the Indians case, some of the die hards are doing just that, dying off.

As I mentioned earlier, I have been through lean times with the Tribe, I went through some pretty good years with them as well. I think in the mid 90's once they moved to The Jake and fielded some damn good teams, a lot of people came out of the woodwork and started calling themselves Indians fans. I remember seeing Chief Wahoo tatoos, Indians flags on houses I never saw them on before, bumper stickers, etc. being displayed by people I know weren't Indians fans just three or four years prior to that. I would see a person sporting an Indians shirt, strike up a conversation about how nice the new field was compared to the old stadium, and more often than not, I would get a response similar to, "Oh I never went to the old stadium." Seriously? How in the hell can you call yourself an Indians fan if you only know the Indians of the Jake/Prog era. (Unless you are like 15 then we are cool).? Those are the people who screwed it up for true die hard fans. As mentioned by BRF earlier in this thread, back in the day you could go buy a bleacher seat and move into almost any seat in the house because most of them were empty, then the Tribe moves to a new ballfield and unless you had season or corporate seats, planning a trip to see the Indians was like planning the D-Day invasion. It took some time and some luck. Well all those yuppies who hopped on the train have hopped off now that the team isn't putting up consistent wins.

People mention the economy being a factor, and yes I believe the price of such events did get out of hand. The Front Office has been proactive this year by lowering prices, offering hella good package deals, even including food vouchers with your tickets. I do think some of the decline is economic, and some of it is that people are voting with their dollars. Sure you can spend the same amount of money on a Monsters game, or a Gladiators game this time of year and enjoy some family time together, but is it the same value dollar for dollar? Is that new competition downtown for the sports dollars cutting into the Indians ticket sales? If the answer is yes, then you are losing more of your casual fans.

Let me end this diatribe by discussing not only the Indians but MLB in general. MLB has some responsibility to its fans and they are not upholding their end of the bargain. Revenue sharing is allowing people like the Dolans to continue to make money while providing for thier fans a sub-par on field performance. I believe that as long as Selig continues to be the commish. this crap is going to continue to happen. He historically turns his back to issues that have ruined the game as long as the league is making money. Until Commisoner Nero steps up and forces or encourages owners who don't really give a shit about their teams, cities, or fans to right the wrongs and with holds some revenue sharing dollars until the performance improves this is going to continue to happen in Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Seattle. Washington DC, and other cities.

Cleveland fans are not fickle, they want a winner. Hopefully this tactic of boycotting the games will get the attention of the owners, the league and anyone else necessary to light a fire under someone's ass to get things straightened out in Cleveland and in MLB altogether.

justincredible;732259 wrote:This was never answered...

Its the only hockey thread going that has people posting in. I've never been flagged for a post in there so not sure what youre getting at.

Commander of Awesome;732262 wrote:Its the only hockey thread going that has people posting in. I've never been flagged for a post in there so not sure what youre getting at.

It's pretty simple what I'm getting at. Jordo isn't trolling.

justincredible;732266 wrote:It's pretty simple what I'm getting at. Jordo isn't trolling.

Other posters disagree. I guess because I didn't go to Marietta I wouldn't understand.

Commander of Awesome;732267 wrote:Other posters disagree. I guess because I didn't go to Marietta I wouldn't understand.

If he's trolling then you're trolling the Penguins thread. Other posters agree.

justincredible;732274 wrote:If he's trolling then you're trolling the Penguins thread. Other posters agree.

Getting off the subject I see....


Anyways back on topic;

I'm becoming slighly optimistic about Pronk this season. He's looking the most healthy he's been since he got injured after signing his fat contract extension. If he can keep this start of the season up it will really help our line up. Asdrubal Cabrera on the other hand has look terrible at the plate.

justincredible;732274 wrote:If he's trolling then you're trolling the Penguins thread. Other posters agree.

I think everyone is already aware of what a joke Commander of Awesome is after his "vacation".

^^^^^
haha

THE4RINGZ;732261 wrote: I believe that as long as Selig continues to be the commish. this crap is going to continue to happen. He historically turns his back to issues that have ruined the game as long as the league is making money. Until Commisoner Nero steps up and forces or encourages owners who don't really give a shit about their teams, cities, or fans to right the wrongs and with holds some revenue sharing dollars until the performance improves this is going to continue to happen in Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Seattle. Washington DC, and other cities.

Washington just broke the bank for Jason Werth, Seattle has had an extremely high payroll and haven't done anything, and then KC is close. They won't be good this year, but they are set up to have a nice run a year or 2 from now. Pittsburgh is a bad situation, no argument there, and then with Cleveland, the bad times have really just started. Come get me when they lose for 10 years in a row.

My point is that no matter the sport, you are going to have franchises that are poorly run and cannot get out of their own way. (Bengals, Clippers, Pirates, Bills, Blue Jackets). Each sport has varying systems in place to promote parity, yet there are always teams in each sport who can't put it together.