redstreak one
Posts: 1,152
Nov 9, 2011 9:11am
I thought this was about Public unions? So a strong public union keeps private businesses from buidling and starting new businesses in Ohio?
Tobias Fünke;964551 wrote:A great way to get more money into the state's education budget = getting more businesses in Ohio for increased tax revenue.
J
jmog
Posts: 6,567
Nov 9, 2011 9:21am
News flash...Glory Days;964319 wrote:you think layoffs wouldnt happen if SB5 passed? ha, thats funny. they were/are going to happen either way.
All local governments have X amount of dollars, regardless if Issue 2 had passed or not passed.
So, if Issue 2 had passed, and the local governments could have lowered labor costs, logic tells you that far less jobs would have been lost to layoffs than if the local governments were strong armed into current contracts.
Use your brain for a second and think about it instead of assuming what the union heads have told you is fact.
Wisconsin has already proven that some of the local school districts were actually able to hire MORE teachers because of this.
J
jmog
Posts: 6,567
Nov 9, 2011 9:24am
Then you have no idea how most conservatives think.Glory Days;964431 wrote:i figured it would be more like yes on 2 and no levies with the whole "i am not giving any more of my hard earned money to the gub'ment" attitude.
Get rid of the conflict of interest/collusion that is public unions, but I have NEVER voted against a local school levy.
J
jmog
Posts: 6,567
Nov 9, 2011 9:26am
False, most conservatives have never attacked private unions, if you work for a private company and want to unionize, feel free to give it a shot.coach_bob1;964483 wrote:This was not about money. If it was, then SB 5 would have just set amounts that must be payed toward healthcare and pensions (which btw, most state employees already pay the 10% and 15% SB 5 mandated.) This was about the controlling political party limiting the power of groups that oppose it.
However, public unions are 100% collusion, unless a different law is passed that makes it illegal for a public union to donate to political campaigns.
Glory Days
Posts: 7,809
Nov 9, 2011 9:30am
yeah i have said that before in my reason why merit pay wouldnt be very good in my opinion.jmog;964586 wrote:News flash...
All local governments have X amount of dollars, regardless if Issue 2 had passed or not passed.
Glory Days
Posts: 7,809
Nov 9, 2011 9:31am
thats great, i live in ohio. and keep pointing to wisconsin, i will just point to other states that ban public unions that are much worse off than ohio.jmog;964586 wrote: Wisconsin has already proven that some of the local school districts were actually able to hire MORE teachers because of this.
W
WebFire
Posts: 14,779
Nov 9, 2011 9:41am
In which case your point would be irrelevant. Ohio isn't trying to ban them.Glory Days;964608 wrote:thats great, i live in ohio. and keep pointing to wisconsin, i will just point to other states that ban public unions that are much worse off than ohio.
C
coach_bob1
Posts: 130
Nov 9, 2011 9:44am
If it was just about saving money, then SB 5 would have not included anything about fair share or political contributions and would have legislators and executive personnel. It was more than possible to initiate pension and healthcare reform without attacking unions. Also, according to the UN, every worker has the right to unionize, regardless of whether they work in the public sector or the private sector. This was solely about punishing one party's opposition.jmog;964593 wrote:False, most conservatives have never attacked private unions, if you work for a private company and want to unionize, feel free to give it a shot.
However, public unions are 100% collusion, unless a different law is passed that makes it illegal for a public union to donate to political campaigns.
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Nov 9, 2011 9:55am
So we should just not vote for any bill and let the country die in a fire. Gotcha.hoops23;964427 wrote:No it wasn't. If it's not perfect, why the **** would you vote for it? You wait until something that is both fair and practical to come to the table.
Taking the power away from the people isn't practical.
SB5 was a joke. I agree, some things need changed, but not that drastically.
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Nov 9, 2011 9:57am
#brainwashedredstreak one;964482 wrote:4 BILLION dollars are being cut from the education budget for the next few years! This wasnt about the money, Kasich was able to cut that without this bill. I pay for my insurance and retirement, our district just voted a pay freeze and we will do what is necessary to keep as many people here employed as possible while still maintaining a solid living wage!
se-alum
Posts: 13,948
Nov 9, 2011 10:23am
I really hope the folks in Columbus decide to break SB5 into different bills, and continue to try to get these reforms passed, starting w/ education. Continuing contracts? Seriously? There are plenty of bums sitting in class rooms keeping jobs from better teachers, simply because they have been teachers for longer. I don't see how any teacher who actually cares about their students, can think this is a good thing, unless of course it's simply for selfish reasons.
And on the teachers side of it, I believe they are forced to be grossly overeducated for what they do. It's insane for an elementary teacher to have to have 4 years of college, and it's crazy for any teacher to have to have a Masters degree to teach below a college level.
And on the teachers side of it, I believe they are forced to be grossly overeducated for what they do. It's insane for an elementary teacher to have to have 4 years of college, and it's crazy for any teacher to have to have a Masters degree to teach below a college level.
Belly35
Posts: 9,716
Nov 9, 2011 10:52am
I have always passed school levies, increases for police, fire and ems. I have provided at no charge product that the school needed and extra donated funds to school special projects .... as of today it will be a cold day in hell when Belly will never approve those types of issues and giving ever again.
Within the next 18 months Ohio communities will see teachers, public employees, police, fire and ems lose their jobs and only a few will benefit ... but the Unions Officers will still be paid ...
Also today I'm asking every small business owner that I meet or do business with in Ohio to do the same and to help me organize a small business campaign to get this Issue back to the voters...
send a message to Governor John Kasich via your business email requesting this Issue to be revised and re voted on before Ohio becomes like Michigan
http://governor.ohio.gov/Contact/ContacttheGovernor.aspx
Within the next 18 months Ohio communities will see teachers, public employees, police, fire and ems lose their jobs and only a few will benefit ... but the Unions Officers will still be paid ...
Also today I'm asking every small business owner that I meet or do business with in Ohio to do the same and to help me organize a small business campaign to get this Issue back to the voters...
send a message to Governor John Kasich via your business email requesting this Issue to be revised and re voted on before Ohio becomes like Michigan
http://governor.ohio.gov/Contact/ContacttheGovernor.aspx
Ty Webb
Posts: 2,798
Nov 9, 2011 10:54am
Belly....why waste money when you know it will get defeated again
majorspark
Posts: 5,122
Nov 9, 2011 11:06am
The UN? LOL. The US constitution assures workers have the right to collectively bargain. It also does not grant any power to a union to force all workers in a profession to join it as a condition of employment.coach_bob1;964633 wrote:Also, according to the UN, every worker has the right to unionize, regardless of whether they work in the public sector or the private sector. This was solely about punishing one party's opposition.
W
WebFire
Posts: 14,779
Nov 9, 2011 11:26am
Agree on all accounts.se-alum;964702 wrote:I really hope the folks in Columbus decide to break SB5 into different bills, and continue to try to get these reforms passed, starting w/ education. Continuing contracts? Seriously? There are plenty of bums sitting in class rooms keeping jobs from better teachers, simply because they have been teachers for longer. I don't see how any teacher who actually cares about their students, can think this is a good thing, unless of course it's simply for selfish reasons.
And on the teachers side of it, I believe they are forced to be grossly overeducated for what they do. It's insane for an elementary teacher to have to have 4 years of college, and it's crazy for any teacher to have to have a Masters degree to teach below a college level.
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Nov 9, 2011 11:53am
+1se-alum;964702 wrote:I really hope the folks in Columbus decide to break SB5 into different bills, and continue to try to get these reforms passed, starting w/ education. Continuing contracts? Seriously? There are plenty of bums sitting in class rooms keeping jobs from better teachers, simply because they have been teachers for longer. I don't see how any teacher who actually cares about their students, can think this is a good thing, unless of course it's simply for selfish reasons.
And on the teachers side of it, I believe they are forced to be grossly overeducated for what they do. It's insane for an elementary teacher to have to have 4 years of college, and it's crazy for any teacher to have to have a Masters degree to teach below a college level.
Especially the part about teachers being forced to get a masters degree. More education = more costs that don't produce any results in the classroom.
ernest_t_bass
Posts: 24,984
Nov 9, 2011 11:58am
Teachers no longer HAVE to get a Masters degree under new licensure requirements. Being the smart man you are, I'm surprised you didn't know that.sleeper;964852 wrote:+1
Especially the part about teachers being forced to get a masters degree. More education = more costs that don't produce any results in the classroom.
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Nov 9, 2011 12:07pm
Good. Then they don't need as big of a salary to help reduce that burden. That was easy.ernest_t_bass;964858 wrote:Teachers no longer HAVE to get a Masters degree under new licensure requirements. Being the smart man you are, I'm surprised you didn't know that.
W
wkfan
Posts: 1,641
Nov 9, 2011 12:12pm
sleeper;964852 wrote:+1
Especially the part about teachers being forced to get a masters degree. More education = more costs that don't produce any results in the classroom.
So you two would be OK with a person with an undergrad degree in biology and no advanced degree operating on you or a person with an undergrad degree in pre-law but no law school representing you in court?ernest_t_bass;964858 wrote:Teachers no longer HAVE to get a Masters degree under new licensure requirements. Being the smart man you are, I'm surprised you didn't know that.
Same principle....MANY teachers have their undergraduate degree in their subject matter, say Mathematics. If they want to TEACH mathematics, they need to go graduate school to get their teaching lincesure... which is 85% - 90% of the way to a Master degree...and gives them their knowledge and practical experience of HOW to teach...much like med school or law school gives a lawyer or a doctor the practical knowledge and methods to practice their profession.
Really????sleeper;964852 wrote:More education = more costs that don't produce any results in the classroom.
O-Trap
Posts: 14,994
Nov 9, 2011 12:22pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe sleeper said it added no value pre-college. I don't want any high school grad only doing those things.wkfan;964868 wrote:So you two would be OK with a person with an undergrad degree in biology and no advanced degree operating on you or a person with an undergrad degree in pre-law but no law school representing you in court?
As the spouse of a teacher, I tend to agree that a Masters to teach high school or below is silly.
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Nov 9, 2011 12:31pm
Yes I don't think you need a masters degree to teach biology to high school students.wkfan;964868 wrote:So you two would be OK with a person with an undergrad degree in biology and no advanced degree operating on you or a person with an undergrad degree in pre-law but no law school representing you in court?
Same principle....MANY teachers have their undergraduate degree in their subject matter, say Mathematics. If they want to TEACH mathematics, they need to go graduate school to get their teaching lincesure... which is 85% - 90% of the way to a Master degree...and gives them their knowledge and practical experience of HOW to teach...much like med school or law school gives a lawyer or a doctor the practical knowledge and methods to practice their profession.
Really????
And I don't think the more educated a teacher gets the better teacher they become. Neither does Bill Gates.
se-alum
Posts: 13,948
Nov 9, 2011 12:33pm
Are you really comparing Teachers to Doctors & Lawyers?? Tell me this, why does a 4th grade math teacher need a Bachelors Degree to teach simple math procedures? It makes no sense. Does a high school Social Studies teacher really need 4 years of college to teach stuff they already had 13 years of education in?? College for the most part is a money grab, that forces people to take courses they absolutely do not need to be proficient in their respective field.wkfan;964868 wrote:So you two would be OK with a person with an undergrad degree in biology and no advanced degree operating on you or a person with an undergrad degree in pre-law but no law school representing you in court?
Same principle....MANY teachers have their undergraduate degree in their subject matter, say Mathematics. If they want to TEACH mathematics, they need to go graduate school to get their teaching lincesure... which is 85% - 90% of the way to a Master degree...and gives them their knowledge and practical experience of HOW to teach...much like med school or law school gives a lawyer or a doctor the practical knowledge and methods to practice their profession.
Really????
C
Con_Alma
Posts: 12,198
Nov 9, 2011 12:44pm
sleeper;964852 wrote:... More education = more costs that don't produce any results in the classroom.
Absolutely.wkfan;964868 wrote:...
Really????
W
wkfan
Posts: 1,641
Nov 9, 2011 1:12pm
Yes, I am...simply for the reason that a Teacher int he State of Ohio needs to be licensed to practice their profession. Simply having a bachelor's degree in a subject matter (i.e. Mathematics, as I stated in my post) does not allow a person to teach in the State of Ohio. They also have to pass 'board tests' (called Praxis) in order to obtain a license to teach. The same goes for a Doctor or a Lawyer.se-alum;964881 wrote:Are you really comparing Teachers to Doctors & Lawyers??
According to the State of Ohio, yes.se-alum;964881 wrote:Tell me this, why does a 4th grade math teacher need a Bachelors Degree to teach simple math procedures? It makes no sense. Does a high school Social Studies teacher really need 4 years of college to teach stuff they already had 13 years of education in??
You certainly are entitled to your opinion. Most hiring corporations, entities, etc would disagree with you, however.se-alum;964881 wrote:College for the most part is a money grab, that forces people to take courses they absolutely do not need to be proficient in their respective field.
Q
QuakerOats
Posts: 8,740
Nov 9, 2011 1:14pm
stlouiedipalma;964106 wrote:Another excellent example of citizen vs. citizen, brought to you by the Tea Party. "If I am not successful, blame my neighbor."
You are completely out to lunch .... again. Probably a paid lunch, to boot.