I think people are smart enough to know which provisions in SB5 are good and which are over the top. No doubt some of the stuff that all the polls say people agree with like paying more for fringes and reworking the process of arbitration will come back. It's too bad the political climate in both party's prevent people from just doing the right things.

if we only had recall.

isadore;983350 wrote:if we only had recall.

In what capacity?

IE: For issue 2 which has been the current topic of the thread or for Governor Kasich which is the overarching topic?

In my limited understanding Issue 2 would be more an example of referendum. Recall is applicable to elected officials.
the total vote against issue 2 in an off, off year election, appreciably more than elected kasich would seem to justify the statement. If we only had recall.

If only those on the public dole were not allowed to vote themselves the public treasury.

yes why don't those serfs know their position.
does that include all government employees including servicepeople, all people receiving government pensions and social security, all farmers receiving government subsidies, all survivors of catastrophes receiving aid, all employees and stockholders of corporations receiving government contract

http://youtu.be/12x8AefWNil

isadore;983581 wrote:yes why don't those serfs know their position.
does that include all government employees including servicepeople, all people receiving government pensions and social security, all farmers receiving government subsidies, all survivors of catastrophes receiving aid, all employees and stockholders of corporations receiving government contract

No, just those in the public sector union monopoly who can strike against the taxpayers, even though the taxpayers do not have a seat at the negotiating table.

If you thought the fiscal problems caused by public sector collective bargaining and binding arbitration were going away after November 8th's election, you are sadly mistaken.

QuakerOats;983635 wrote:No, just those in the public sector union monopoly who can strike against the taxpayers, even though the taxpayers do not have a seat at the negotiating table.

If you thought the fiscal problems caused by public sector collective bargaining and binding arbitration were going away after November 8th's election, you are sadly mistaken.

I have found no creditable evidence to support any of your claims. Where are you getting your facts from? Here is a more objective study using actual facts and a valid scientific study of the facts.

Results certainly suggest that the animus toward public sector unions is misplaced: There seems to be no strong relationship between the existence or strength of public sector unions and budget shortfalls. Attempts to blame public employee unions – or public employees in general – for states’ fiscal woes are monumentally simplistic and, usually, have more to do with politics than parsimony.

http://shankerblog.org/?p=1850

It has NEVER been an attempt to "blame public employees" .... although the union machine wants the debate to be framed in a such a manner.

There is a direct correlation in Ohio between collective bargaining being rammed downed the throats of Ohioans and Ohio taxpayers in 1983 by a union-machine, democrat controlled legislature, and the resulting budget implosions at all levels of Ohio government and all school districts, and the massive funding shortfalls of past promises that we have yet to even realize.

And it doesn't take a rocket scientist or an internet link to figure that out.
Try again.

Abe Vigoda;983665 wrote:I have found no creditable evidence to support any of your claims. Where are you getting your facts from? Here is a more objective study using actual facts and a valid scientific study of the facts.


http://shankerblog.org/?p=1850

Forget studies: how about looking at the current fiscal problems in California, Illinois and several other states where outlandish public employee pensions and benefits have directly led to all but burying those states in debt. It's not about cutting REASONABLE salaries or benefits; it's about bringing them back in line with what's affordable.

Interesting how the corporationists want to give corporations freedom of speech while they support denying the right to vote and the right to organize to government workers. I think we would see a much greater relationship between the actions unregulated financial institutions than with collective bargaining. Lehman Brothers gets much more of the blame for our present problems than the OEA, OAPSE or FOP. Of course we have one of Lehman's own putting blame for the fiasco he helped create on police, teachers and firefighters.

When even FDR, the most liberal president in the history of the country, says there's something innately unfair about public unions -- it's time to listen.

And while Lehman and their co-horts get their share of blame for the mess we're in, let's not forget the role of government intervention into the entire housing industry that started this crap ball rolling downhill. Pushing mortgages for people who had no business buying was the first volley in this mess.

Hell, Fannie and Freddie are still ridiculously unstable, and will likely need yet another multi billion dollar bail out before Congress comes to its senses...if that ever happens (unlikely I know).

I know Democrats would rather blame the corporations, even though government was at the root of everything bad that has happened with this economy.

We can fill a book with idiotic comments by great leaders. They live in their time and the problems and situations of our own may not be applicable. It is not government intervention that is the big problem but government deregulation. If Glass Steagall and some other other banking regs were in effect we would have escaped this financial collapse and Kasich's attempt to blame it on public workers.

isadore;984347 wrote:We can fill a book with idiotic comments by great leaders. They live in their time and the problems and situations of our own may not be applicable. It is not government intervention that is the big problem but government deregulation. If Glass Steagall and some other other banking regs were in effect we would have escaped this financial collapse and Kasich's attempt to blame it on public workers.

You are correct, that it is not government intervention that is the big problem. The big problem is that too many people think the best solution is government intervention.

QuakerOats;984020 wrote:It has NEVER been an attempt to "blame public employees" .... although the union machine wants the debate to be framed in a such a manner.

There is a direct correlation in Ohio between collective bargaining being rammed downed the throats of Ohioans and Ohio taxpayers in 1983 by a union-machine, democrat controlled legislature, and the resulting budget implosions at all levels of Ohio government and all school districts, and the massive funding shortfalls of past promises that we have yet to even realize.

And it doesn't take a rocket scientist or an internet link to figure that out.
Try again.

A rocket scientist would not present opinion as fact. You sound like you are a writer for Fox news.

Abe Vigoda;984867 wrote:A rocket scientist would not present opinion as fact. You sound like you are a writer for Fox news.

As usual, you cannot dispute the content of what I wrote.

isadore;984347 wrote: If Glass Steagall and some other other banking regs were in effect we would have escaped this financial collapse and Kasich's attempt to blame it on public workers.

You can keep up the mantra but the facts are: Kasich in no way blamed our woes on public workers. The blame was accurately placed on the growth of government, and the allowance of a third party special interest group to seize unaffordable and unsustainable compensation packages.

In the end, what Kasich should have simply repeated over and over and over was this:

We can either move forward with the necessary changes passed by the legislature, or we will issue wage and benefit checks in the future that will bounce. Pick one.

Ghmothwdwhso;984643 wrote:You are correct, that it is not government intervention that is the big problem. The big problem is that too many people think the best solution is government intervention.

From the 1930s on federal regulation including FDIC and Glass Steagall gave us a stable banking financial system until the deregulators did their work and we get a monumental collapse.

isadore;984920 wrote:From the 1930s on federal regulation including FDIC and Glass Steagall gave us a stable banking financial system until the deregulators did their work and we get a monumental collapse.

Except for that collapse in the 80's

QuakerOats;984884 wrote:You can keep up the mantra but the facts are: Kasich in no way blamed our woes on public workers. The blame was accurately placed on the growth of government, and the allowance of a third party special interest group to seize unaffordable and unsustainable compensation packages.

In the end, what Kasich should have simply repeated over and over and over was this:

We can either move forward with the necessary changes passed by the legislature, or we will issue wage and benefit checks in the future that will bounce. Pick one.

Kasich is richly deserving of blame. While serving as a managing director for the criminal enterprise known as Lehman Brothers he served as a go between in the sale of toxic investments to government workers pension funds, and was an accomplice in producing our Great Recession that deprived state and local government of tax revenue. As governor he has pushed tax cuts that again cut revenue needed to operate the state government and provide intergovernmental funds for local government and the schools.
Then he follows the route of the demagogue by scapegoating public employees for problems they did not create. But the people of Ohio knowing the truth rejected his effort and gave him a humiliating defeat. Oh if we only had recall.

LJ;984926 wrote:Except for that collapse in the 80's

Which was in large part facilitated by the deregulation passed in the early 1980s like the Garn-St. Germain Depository institutions act which allowed savings and loans to make risky investment that had previously been forbidden them.

isadore;984973 wrote:Which was in large part facilitated by the deregulation passed in the early 1980s like the Garn-St. Germain Depository institutions act which allowed savings and loans to make risky investment that had previously been forbidden them.

The S&L crisis had more external factors than deregulation, unlike the current crisis. The S&L crisis would have still happened. The current crisis could have been largely prevented had it not been for GLB.

Isadore has memorized those leftist talking points and won't budge. He just keeps repeating them over and over, like some kind of demented mantra of misinformation that all the good comrades must learn.

The left needs hatred and scapegoats to keep the fires burning in the bellies of their followers. Can't have them actually think too much for themselves, or else they might see the gaping flaws in the "logic" of their belief system.

isadore;984951 wrote:Kasich is richly deserving of blame. While serving as a managing director for the criminal enterprise known as Lehman Brothers he served as a go between in the sale of toxic investments to government workers pension funds, and was an accomplice in producing our Great Recession that deprived state and local government of tax revenue. As governor he has pushed tax cuts that again cut revenue needed to operate the state government and provide intergovernmental funds for local government and the schools.
Then he follows the route of the demagogue by scapegoating public employees for problems they did not create. But the people of Ohio knowing the truth rejected his effort and gave him a humiliating defeat. Oh if we only had recall.

Please enlighten us further by elaborating on Lehman Brothers; what specifically was "criminal" about their business? What value did they provide to markets? What benefit or cost has accrued due to their absence? Why were they allowed to go bust, when shortly beforehand another entity was saved? Was Kasich's low level manager position at their Columbus satellite branch office significant? What does it have to do with unaffordable and unsustainable compensation packages wrought by public sector bargaining forced upon Ohioans beginning in 1983?

Then compare and contrast all of that with CRA, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and the fraudulent cooking of their books by Franklin Raines and Jamie Gorelick who then pocketed over $200 million in illegal bonuses paid for by the taxpayers, Sarbanes Oxley, and lastly Dodd-Frank: the Housing and Jobs Destruction Act.

Of course, you will have to take off the blinders, abandon the special interest union talking points, and gain a lot of understanding. Good luck.