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Governor Kasich

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Bigdogg

Senior Member

1,429 posts
Feb 22, 2011 12:27 AM
LJ;686414 wrote:Just because you put **** doesn't keep you from the rules of name calling. Only warning.

Freaking mommy is better then calling someone dense. He get a warning also? He wants to throw out insults I am going to retaliate .
Feb 21, 2011 7:27pm
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centralbucksfan

Senior Member

5,111 posts
Feb 22, 2011 1:02 AM
More facts:

http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/news_from_epi_epi_study_finds_ohio_public-sector_workers_under-compensated/

"A new Economic Policy Institute study released this week finds that full-time state and local government employees in Ohio are undercompensated by 5.9%,when compared to otherwise similar private-sector workers."

"The study makes clear that public employees—like every other American worker—have in fact been victims of the worst recession since the Great Depression. In fact, severe financial problems as a result of the Great Recession have forced state, county and municipal elected officials across the country to make massive cuts in spending. As a result, tens of thousands of public-sector employees have been laid off and thousands more have been subject to forced furloughs, pay freezes and cuts in benefits.

compared to private-sector counterparts, says EPI study"
Feb 21, 2011 8:02pm
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Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Feb 22, 2011 1:11 AM
centralbucksfan;686486 wrote:More facts:

http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/news_from_epi_epi_study_finds_ohio_public-sector_workers_under-compensated/

"A new Economic Policy Institute study released this week finds that full-time state and local government employees in Ohio are undercompensated by 5.9%,when compared to otherwise similar private-sector workers."

"The study makes clear that public employees—like every other American worker—have in fact been victims of the worst recession since the Great Depression. In fact, severe financial problems as a result of the Great Recession have forced state, county and municipal elected officials across the country to make massive cuts in spending. As a result, tens of thousands of public-sector employees have been laid off and thousands more have been subject to forced furloughs, pay freezes and cuts in benefits.

compared to private-sector counterparts, says EPI study"

LOL, want me to post the background of the EPI?

These are facts? Please tell me you aren't a teacher. I can understand using these 'facts' to try to persuade someone, but they aren't facts, and I don't find them persuasive. No more than watching Keith Olbermann or Bill O'Reilly.

Facts are facts. Water being wet is a fact. The Packers winning the Super Bowl is a fact. This is just propaganda by a biased think tank.
Feb 21, 2011 8:11pm
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centralbucksfan

Senior Member

5,111 posts
Feb 22, 2011 1:16 AM
Manhattan Buckeye;686507 wrote:LOL, want me to post the background of the EPI?

These are facts? Please tell me you aren't a teacher. I can understand using these 'facts' to try to persuade someone, but they aren't facts, and I don't find them persuasive. No more than watching Keith Olbermann or Bill O'Reilly.

Facts are facts. Water being wet is a fact. The Packers winning the Super Bowl is a fact. This is just propaganda by a biased think tank.

Bias think tank? Really, one done by Rutgers University, which last I checked, isn't even in Ohio. Care to relay to me WHY it is bias?
Feb 21, 2011 8:16pm
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Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Feb 22, 2011 1:20 AM
Mission statement:

http://www.epi.org/pages/mission_and_values/

Of course it is biased. It is a study, not a fact, if nothing else they only report on data that supports their mission. It is an advocacy website.
Feb 21, 2011 8:20pm
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centralbucksfan

Senior Member

5,111 posts
Feb 22, 2011 1:24 AM
Manhattan Buckeye;686526 wrote:Mission statement:

http://www.epi.org/pages/mission_and_values/

Of course it is biased. It is a study, not a fact, if nothing else they only report on data that supports their mission. It is an advocacy website.

LOL..biased based on what? Your opinion? Uh huh. Show me something to contradict this study? EPI is what it says it is...nonpartisan.
Feb 21, 2011 8:24pm
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Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Feb 22, 2011 1:27 AM
centralbucksfan;686528 wrote:LOL..biased based on what? Your opinion? Uh huh. Show me something to contradict this study? EPI is what it says it is...nonpartisan.

Yeah, they are really non-partisan. So is Fox News, MSNBC, the NYT editorial page and the Republican party newsletter.

If you want to believe it is non-partisan, I'm not going to argue with you. Believe what you want. It really isn't worth it anymore. I've pretty much lost all faith in our public schools in the last few days, I don't need another reason to be even more cynical.
Feb 21, 2011 8:27pm
LJ's avatar

LJ

Senior Member

16,351 posts
Feb 22, 2011 1:31 AM
centralbucksfan;686528 wrote:LOL..biased based on what? Your opinion? Uh huh. Show me something to contradict this study? EPI is what it says it is...nonpartisan.

You realize that the actual usage of nonpartisan has to do with political parties. Just because they have beliefs doesn't mean they have to be affiliated with a political party.

I've got no dog in this fight, I haven't done the research on this part.
Feb 21, 2011 8:31pm
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centralbucksfan

Senior Member

5,111 posts
Feb 22, 2011 2:20 AM
Manhattan Buckeye;686532 wrote:Yeah, they are really non-partisan. So is Fox News, MSNBC, the NYT editorial page and the Republican party newsletter.

If you want to believe it is non-partisan, I'm not going to argue with you. Believe what you want. It really isn't worth it anymore. I've pretty much lost all faith in our public schools in the last few days, I don't need another reason to be even more cynical.

BTW, the research was done by an associate professor at Rutgers Univ. But I am sure he has some kind of bias as well...... ;)
Feb 21, 2011 9:20pm
Writerbuckeye's avatar

Writerbuckeye

Senior Member

4,745 posts
Feb 22, 2011 2:50 AM
What research? They published a bunch of statements with nothing to back it up so far as I can tell.

And if you're an ADVOCACY GROUP your goal is to advocate on behalf of the things you believe in. Every one of those statements support the continued use of government to redistribute wealth...which meets one of the group's primary goals.

This group basically believes in socialism, according to its mission statement. They do not believe that people are different and some people deserve far more pay than others; they want everyone to basically have a piece of the pie.

I'd say their beliefs are contrary to those of the American tradition that anyone can get ahead in this world based on their own hard work and energy. They believe EVERYONE should get certain things just for existing, not because they've earned it.

This isn't the kind of group I'd want representing my profession, because they don't advocate the kind of values I'd want associated with my someone teaching my children.
Feb 21, 2011 9:50pm
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Bigdogg

Senior Member

1,429 posts
Feb 22, 2011 3:51 PM
Those of you that want to do away with collective bargaining altogether, I have one question to ask. Before unions when we had a "free market" for employees to shop themselves around to the highest bidder, why did we need unions in the first place if that's such a great system?
Feb 22, 2011 10:51am
CenterBHSFan's avatar

CenterBHSFan

333 - I'm only half evil

6,115 posts
Feb 22, 2011 4:11 PM
Bigdogg;687086 wrote:Those of you that want to do away with collective bargaining altogether, I have one question to ask. Before unions when we had a "free market" for employees to shop themselves around to the highest bidder, why did we need unions in the first place if that's such a great system?
Because we didn't have the legislation/laws that we currently have?
Because the EPA has made huge amounts of regulations since then?
Because OSHA has made huge amounts of regulations since then?

Just some of the reasons, but big ones.
Feb 22, 2011 11:11am
derek bomar's avatar

derek bomar

Senior Member

3,722 posts
Feb 22, 2011 4:24 PM
Bigdogg;687086 wrote:Those of you that want to do away with collective bargaining altogether, I have one question to ask. Before unions when we had a "free market" for employees to shop themselves around to the highest bidder, why did we need unions in the first place if that's such a great system?

No one is saying union's haven't had some benefit to society. The issue is whether they in today's environment provide anything useful to society as a whole. Union's IMO today try and protect the weak. The weak should not be proteced. Union's favor length of service over productivity. It should be the other way around. Unions mandate conformity. Why? Shouldn't localities have the flexibility to hire/fire/compensate as they see fit? Why do I have to jump through 10 hoops to fire someone who is incompetent or to hire someone who I feel is competent?

I used to work for UPS in college. Had to join a union. Was insane to me how drunks were coddled, lazy people were not taken to task, and how everyone took a break at the same time (causing the plant to just shut down - how is this productive?). Unions have historically allowed for the protection of workers whose basic rights were being infringed upon. I don't think asking you to pay for your health insurance or to be able to be fired if you suck is something that is infringing upon your rights as a worker.
Feb 22, 2011 11:24am
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I Wear Pants

Senior Member

16,223 posts
Feb 22, 2011 5:15 PM
Bigdogg;687086 wrote:Those of you that want to do away with collective bargaining altogether, I have one question to ask. Before unions when we had a "free market" for employees to shop themselves around to the highest bidder, why did we need unions in the first place if that's such a great system?
You know that isn't a good comparison because the times were quite different. Especially now that the EPA, OSHA, etc mandate safe work environments and it's much easier to win a court case against a negligent/maleviolent employer.
Feb 22, 2011 12:15pm
BGFalcons82's avatar

BGFalcons82

Senior Member

2,173 posts
Feb 23, 2011 2:36 AM
I Wear Pants;687205 wrote:You know that isn't a good comparison because the times were quite different. Especially now that the EPA, OSHA, etc mandate safe work environments and it's much easier to win a court case against a negligent/maleviolent employer.

Yep. You are correct. However, the single largest weapon against unscrupulous owners and those wishing to violate employee's safety/health/welfare is the i-phone with it's little tiny camera. No one can get away with sweatshop/illegal employment practices anymore, unless they want to be exposed on the internet and to the myriad of gubmint agencies. This little tool wasn't around 90 years ago when unions were in their infancy, but it' impact today is most profound.
Feb 22, 2011 9:36pm
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QuakerOats

Senior Member

8,740 posts
Feb 23, 2011 2:30 PM
"We are broke in this state because time and time again politicians of both political parties ran from the tough decisions and punted them down the road for another day," Walker said in an address to state residents.


Thanks to Governor Walker and Governor Kasich for being the first LEADERS in a long time that have the fortitude to deal with what must be dealt with. Had we had officials like this in charge previously we would not be dealing with the wreckage left behind from all the piss poor decisions made by spineless politicians of the past.
Feb 23, 2011 9:30am
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I Wear Pants

Senior Member

16,223 posts
Feb 23, 2011 6:11 PM
I did see an article in the paper about Kasich "getting tough" with drugs or something which I don't like as those campaings never work and waste a ton of money.
Feb 23, 2011 1:11pm
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stlouiedipalma

Senior Member

1,797 posts
Feb 23, 2011 6:19 PM
I Wear Pants;688697 wrote:I did see an article in the paper about Kasich "getting tough" with drugs or something which I don't like as those campaings never work and waste a ton of money.

It the low-hanging political fruit that the Republican base just loves, sort of like blaming public workers and unions for all of the fiscal mismanagement that has been going on for years.
Feb 23, 2011 1:19pm
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I Wear Pants

Senior Member

16,223 posts
Feb 23, 2011 6:22 PM
While I think they may be a little overzealous with their blaming of public workers I do agree with them that collective bargaining isn't needed anymore and only helps the unions. It in my view does not help the workers who the union is supposed to represent.

And the need for politicians to appear "tough" on crime is really damaging. It simply only hurts us as the policies enacted by those viewpoints rarely work when you look at the big picture.
Feb 23, 2011 1:22pm
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queencitybuckeye

Senior Member

7,117 posts
Feb 23, 2011 6:38 PM
stlouiedipalma;688715 wrote:It the low-hanging political fruit that the Republican base just loves, sort of like blaming public workers and unions for all of the fiscal mismanagement that has been going on for years.

The difference is that they're finally fixing the latter.
Feb 23, 2011 1:38pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Feb 23, 2011 7:06 PM
stlouiedipalma;688715 wrote:It the low-hanging political fruit that the Republican base just loves.

This is spot on. Cracking down on drugs is just one more financial sink hole ... the burden of which will, of course, be put on the shoulders of Joe Taxpayer.

To be fair, those who are crying out against the problems caused by unions aren't blaming them for all the mismanagement. They just happen to be one of the yappier puppies at the tax tit.
Feb 23, 2011 2:06pm
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Bigdogg

Senior Member

1,429 posts
Feb 23, 2011 7:34 PM
queencitybuckeye;688757 wrote:The difference is that they're finally fixing the latter.

As soon as you back this statement up with real numbers then we can discuss. Either way you are going to see this on the ballot and with the numbers against this at this point you and a few other are in the minority.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-02-22-poll-public-unions-wisconsin_N.htm

And Quinnipiac

25. Governor Kasich and Republican legislative leaders have talked about eliminating or restricting the ability of state and local government employees to collectively bargain. Do you think that is a good idea or a bad idea?

WtBrnAgn
Tot Rep Dem Ind Men Wom Evnglcl



Good idea 34% 50% 19% 37% 39% 30% 38%
Bad idea 51 31 71 44 52 50 40
DK/NA 15 18 10 18 10 20 23
Feb 23, 2011 2:34pm
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queencitybuckeye

Senior Member

7,117 posts
Feb 23, 2011 7:48 PM
Bigdogg;688847 wrote:As soon as you back this statement up with real numbers then we can discuss. Either way you are going to see this on the ballot and with the numbers against this at this point you and a few other are in the minority.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-02-22-poll-public-unions-wisconsin_N.htm

The "real numbers" will be the vote count when the Ohio legislature passes the bill (and there's little doubt that they will).
Feb 23, 2011 2:48pm
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Bigdogg

Senior Member

1,429 posts
Feb 23, 2011 7:51 PM
queencitybuckeye;688860 wrote:The "real numbers" will be the vote count when the Ohio legislature passes the bill (and there's little doubt that they will).

I agree, and they will pay for it the next election.
Feb 23, 2011 2:51pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Feb 23, 2011 7:52 PM
Bigdogg;688847 wrote:As soon as you back this statement up with real numbers then we can discuss. Either way you are going to see this on the ballot and with the numbers against this at this point you and a few other are in the minority.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-02-22-poll-public-unions-wisconsin_N.htm

At this point, the facts available are what has worked for other modern industries and enterprises which do not have collective bargaining. I recently posted some statistics that distinguished between states that prohibit, allow, and enforce collective bargaining. Of the five states that already prohibit collective bargaining, all five are in the top half of the 50 states in terms of starting wage, average wage, and cost of living. Of the 11 who allow it, 7 are in the top half. That means that 21 of the 25 in the bottom half force collective bargaining, while only 13 are in the top half.

However, what I would propose would be something that the sales/marketing industry does a lot: split testing. Essentially, take a sufficient portion of the schools in the state, find a school that has a very similar surrounding culture, ethnic background, socioeconomic climate, population, etc. Use one as the control (with collective bargaining) and the other as the test.

This would never fly, of course, and because the teachers would know about it, it would skew the results. However, the most concrete data for or against collective bargaining could be achieved that way.
Feb 23, 2011 2:52pm