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I can't stand when coaches do this

Home ▸ Archive ▸ Pro Sports ▸ I can't stand when coaches do this
SportsAndLady's avatar

SportsAndLady

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35,632 posts
Dec 26, 2010 4:10 PM
The Jets had a 4th and 7 at around midfield, maybe even at the Bears' 40, I can't remember.

There was a little over 3 minutes left, and they were down 4 so they needed a touchdown.

Rex Ryan chose to punt the ball...WHY?!

Don't you think there is a better chance of getting a 7 yard play, then it is to get a 3 and out and THEN have to drive down the field under 2 min left and no timeouts? I mean either way, you'll still need a touchdown..I don't get why coaches choose to punt it there.

Even if you don't get the 4th and 7, you're still not out of it
Dec 26, 2010 4:10pm
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Manhattan Buckeye

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7,566 posts
Dec 26, 2010 4:39 PM
Right call with 3 timeouts and the two minute warning, especially since they needed the TD. It would be one thing if going if on 4th and making it would put you in FG range, but it wouldn't. You know the Bears will run the ball every time so defense ideally should be easy (turned out it wasn't since Forte got a 1st down rushing). As it turned out even with the 1st down they should have got the ball back around midfield with a minute left (if the defense didn't bungle it they could have got the ball at midfield with two minutes left).

The first down and the dumb-luck punt that hit the Jets guy that knocked it another 15 yards...but if they went for it and didn't get, there is nearly a 100% chance they'd have to drive the length of the field with 1-2 minutes left and no timeouts.
Dec 26, 2010 4:39pm
Q

queencitybuckeye

Senior Member

7,117 posts
Dec 26, 2010 4:45 PM
Too much time with all timeouts to go into full four down mode. Correct call.
Dec 26, 2010 4:45pm
Tigerfan00's avatar

Tigerfan00

Senior Member

3,427 posts
Dec 26, 2010 4:51 PM
Why would you take a chance leaving Chicago at midfield when you could pin them inside the 10(which they did) and try to force them to a 3 and out and they had all their timeouts.
Dec 26, 2010 4:51pm
SportsAndLady's avatar

SportsAndLady

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35,632 posts
Dec 26, 2010 4:55 PM
Because whether you punt it or fail to convert 4th down, you're still gonna have to force a defensive stop and then drive down the field with 0 timeouts left. So why not try and go for it on 4th down?
Dec 26, 2010 4:55pm
M

Manhattan Buckeye

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7,566 posts
Dec 26, 2010 4:59 PM
Because 4th and 7 is incredibly difficult, and only played in desperation (unless it is a fake). The D knows you aren't going to run, so that takes away running plays and play action passes - which is a big part of the playbook. The Jets would have to go empty backfield or have a 4 wide split with a blocker in the background. It is a difficult set when the D knows what you need.

If it was 4th and 3 or less I can see going for it because it opens your entire playbook. The situation wasn't desperate enough to warrant such a risky play. All the Jets had to do was stop 3 extremely conservative running plays (everyone knew Cutler wasn't going to pass in that part of the field) after a very good punt - and they didn't do it. Blame the Jets D, not Ryan.

--edit, "you're still gonna have to force a defensive stop and then drive down the field with 0 timeouts left. "

Not if you punt and pin them in - you'd get the ball back around midfield if you stop them. Go for it, don't get it, you likely get the ball inside your own 20 if you stop them.
Dec 26, 2010 4:59pm
SportsAndLady's avatar

SportsAndLady

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Dec 26, 2010 5:09 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;613873 wrote:Because 4th and 7 is incredibly difficult

In normal circumstances, yes. But 4th and 7 is not so difficult in a situation where the offense needs a touchdown and the defense is playing not to give up a touchdown. You see a good amount of 4th and 5-10 yard conversions when an offense needs a touchdown on their last drive and "have" to go for the 4th down.

I'm giving the probability of getting a 4th and 7 conversion and then scoring from 40 yards out at 30%...I'm giving forcing a 3 and out against a team that has already put up 38 and then having to drive 40-70 yards for a TD with no timeouts and under 2 minutes at 15%.
Dec 26, 2010 5:09pm
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mhs95_06

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8,167 posts
Dec 26, 2010 5:15 PM
It was 4th and 5 at the Jet 45. My opinion is the right call would be to go for it, which is what I thought watching it live! I think your chances of getting a lead taking TD are much better going for it. The difference in the possibilities of getting a TD if you get the ball back with no time-outs on the 50 or 10 yd line are not enough different to try for the 50 yd line and three time-outs and an extra minute on the clock.
Dec 26, 2010 5:15pm
justincredible's avatar

justincredible

Nick Mangold

32,056 posts
Dec 26, 2010 5:15 PM
It was the correct call. The incorrect call was the fake punt at the beginning of the second half. That lost them the game, IMO.
Dec 26, 2010 5:15pm
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Manhattan Buckeye

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7,566 posts
Dec 26, 2010 6:14 PM
"I'm giving forcing a 3 and out against a team that has already put up 38 and then having to drive 40-70 yards for a TD with no timeouts and under 2 minutes at 15%."

Not only did they not score in the 4th Q, Cutler didn't even complete a pass I think - yeah the Bears scored a lot of points, but all points scored in the second half were on 20+ yard TD passes in the 3rdQ on plays there was no way the Bears would (and didn't) run at that stage of the game. Again, if the Jets D just stopped 3 consecutive conservative runs, this isn't wouldn't even be discussed.
Dec 26, 2010 6:14pm
SportsAndLady's avatar

SportsAndLady

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Dec 26, 2010 6:37 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;613920 wrote:Again, if the Jets D just stopped 3 consecutive conservative runs, this isn't wouldn't even be discussed.

But that's just the point..it's not easy to force a 3 and out, let alone a 3 and out in an offensive powered game. My point is, it's harder to force a 3 and out and drive 50 yards for a TD then it is to convert a 4th and 7 and go the extra 30-50 yards (I can't remember what yard line the 4th and 7 was on).
Dec 26, 2010 6:37pm
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Manhattan Buckeye

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7,566 posts
Dec 26, 2010 7:04 PM
It isn't an offensive powered series....the Jets knew exactly what the Bears were going to do, run 3 consecutive conservative plays probably all within the tackle box. Even the CBS announcers were surprised the Jets didn't just stack the box. - Cutler already threw one pick 6...the Bears aren't passing in that situation. If the Jets can't stop Matt Forte on 2nd and 8, they don't deserve to win. Here was the final drive:

1st-10, CHI5 3:02 M. Forte rushed to the left for 2 yard gain
2nd-8, CHI7 2:57 M. Forte rushed to the right for 8 yard gain
1st-10, CHI15 2:48 M. Forte rushed to the left for no gain
2nd-10, CHI15 2:43 M. Forte rushed to the right for 1 yard gain
3rd-9, CHI16 2:00 M. Forte rushed to the right for 2 yard gain

One of these plays cost them at least a minute and 10 yards of field position. Unfortunate. But the D was in position to get the ball back. After all it wasn't that difficult to get a 3 and out after the 1st down. Forte isn't exactly the best back inside - good with receptions and fast on swing plays, but the Bears didn't exactly run it down the Jets' throats all game.

The coaches' decision gave the players the chance to stay in the game, it just didn't happen.
Dec 26, 2010 7:04pm
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mhs95_06

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8,167 posts
Dec 26, 2010 7:56 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;613950 wrote:It isn't an offensive powered series....the Jets knew exactly what the Bears were going to do, run 3 consecutive conservative plays probably all within the tackle box. Even the CBS announcers were surprised the Jets didn't just stack the box. - Cutler already threw one pick 6...the Bears aren't passing in that situation. If the Jets can't stop Matt Forte on 2nd and 8, they don't deserve to win. Here was the final drive:

1st-10, CHI5 3:02 M. Forte rushed to the left for 2 yard gain
2nd-8, CHI7 2:57 M. Forte rushed to the right for 8 yard gain
1st-10, CHI15 2:48 M. Forte rushed to the left for no gain
2nd-10, CHI15 2:43 M. Forte rushed to the right for 1 yard gain
3rd-9, CHI16 2:00 M. Forte rushed to the right for 2 yard gain

One of these plays cost them at least a minute and 10 yards of field position. Unfortunate. But the D was in position to get the ball back. After all it wasn't that difficult to get a 3 and out after the 1st down. Forte isn't exactly the best back inside - good with receptions and fast on swing plays, but the Bears didn't exactly run it down the Jets' throats all game.

The coaches' decision gave the players the chance to stay in the game, it just didn't happen.

It gave them the chance to STAY in the game. I more like the coaches, Belichick for example, who are always thinking about giving their team the best chance to WIN the game. Staying in the game may appease the fans the most, but winning the game is the goal of the day. I believe going for it on that 4th and 5 was the best chance to WIN the game. And besides, in this case if the best chance to win the game fails, you don't for sure lose the game as there was a much smaller chance to get the ball back in worse field position and another try to WIN the game.
Dec 26, 2010 7:56pm
Ironman92's avatar

Ironman92

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49,363 posts
Dec 26, 2010 8:09 PM
It was 4th and 5.....I go for it near midfield.
Dec 26, 2010 8:09pm
SportsAndLady's avatar

SportsAndLady

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Dec 26, 2010 8:14 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;613950 wrote: The coaches' decision gave the players the chance to stay in the game, it just didn't happen.

I'm not denying that, so your previous words in your post are not relevant. I'm saying going for it gives them a better chance of winning, not just a chance. Sure, the coaches' decision to punt gave them a chance to win..but it didn't give them the best chance.
Dec 26, 2010 8:14pm
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paul_banks

Member

39 posts
Dec 26, 2010 8:16 PM
I think we all agree that this isn't the first time Coach Footfuck has made questionable decisions.
Dec 26, 2010 8:16pm
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Manhattan Buckeye

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7,566 posts
Dec 27, 2010 2:30 PM
"It gave them the chance to STAY in the game. I more like the coaches, Belichick for example, who are always thinking about giving their team the best chance to WIN the game."

If Ryan went for it, and the Jets didn't convert, I'm betting everything a thread about how stupid Ryan was to go for it would eclipse the number of posts on this thread.

We're a bunch of internet lackeys: our guess regarding "percentages" of converting this and that, and scoring this and that are meaningless. Ryan trusted his special teams to make the play (they did), and trusted his defense to make the plays against obvious conservative running plays (they didn't). There is nothing controversial about the decision.

Read King, Prisco, Banks, etc. about the weekend, there is no one questioning Ryan's decision. There is a reason for it. It isn't controversial.
Dec 27, 2010 2:30pm
SportsAndLady's avatar

SportsAndLady

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Dec 27, 2010 2:57 PM
And no one is saying it was a bad call or saying there was anything controversial about it. I just believe there is a better chance of converting that 4th and 5 and scoring, then punting, forcing a 3 and out, successfully accepting the punt, and then driving ~50 yards with no timeouts and minimal time on the clock.
Dec 27, 2010 2:57pm
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mhs95_06

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8,167 posts
Dec 27, 2010 4:07 PM
I don't think it is so controversial either. It is akin to debating whether the manager should call for the runner to be bunted over or not in the World Series. Maybe the reason none of the "experts" are questioning it is maybe punting the ball is "conventional wisdom". Some of us are just pointing out our opinion is that going for it on 4th and 5 would give the best chance to win, contrary to what strategy was actually employed.
Dec 27, 2010 4:07pm
hasbeen's avatar

hasbeen

Excuse me, Flo?

6,504 posts
Dec 27, 2010 7:17 PM
If I'm the coach and I'm THINKING about going for it on 4th down, I call a high percentage 3rd down play. Meaning if it's 3rd and 7, I'm calling a run, draw, or an easy pass completion. Something to make the 4th down easier. I'm not a fan of 4th and 5+. But then again, who really is?
Dec 27, 2010 7:17pm
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Standoff22

Member

58 posts
Dec 27, 2010 10:09 PM
I feel it was a bad call. You gotta go for it. Those timeouts do you no good when you can't stop them from getting first downs.
Dec 27, 2010 10:09pm
SportsAndLady's avatar

SportsAndLady

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35,632 posts
Dec 28, 2010 12:46 AM
Killed the Falcons again tonight! Almost the exact same situation, except for field position....go for 4th and 5 with Matt Ryan!!
Dec 28, 2010 12:46am
SportsAndLady's avatar

SportsAndLady

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Dec 28, 2010 12:47 AM
pnhasbeen;615109 wrote:If I'm the coach and I'm THINKING about going for it on 4th down, I call a high percentage 3rd down play. Meaning if it's 3rd and 7, I'm calling a run, draw, or an easy pass completion. Something to make the 4th down easier. I'm not a fan of 4th and 5+. But then again, who really is?

I wouldn't.

You have a better shot of getting 1 play out of 2 for 7+ yards then you do getting back to back 3.5 yard plays.
Dec 28, 2010 12:47am