lhslep134;609297 wrote:Again, stop blaming just the coaches, they're not the only ones at fault. If a kid doesn't earn their scholarship, then why should they get it the following year?

Because the coaches are supposed to be the experts, the people who are supposed to know who can play. How the hell is the kid supposed to know on what tier he belongs other than listening to the opinions of those with experience?

I tend to blame coaches more so than parents or the kids simply because that's their job. Oversigning really makes it easier to not do your due diligence when it comes to projecting how a kid will perform in academics, social growth and on field performance. Sorry, but that is a recruiters responsibility and oversigning allows them to under perform their duties, that they're being compensated for.

even though I do not agree with oversighning at all, As a kid who just earned a degree. I don't feel bad for them getting free school for a couple years as I got 0 free years.

se-alum;609219 wrote:That 25 per year limit doesn't really mean anything when your talking about oversigning. Yes, SEC is close based on the 25, but I'm sure they aren't close on the actual amount of schollies they have available as opposed to how many they signed. For instance, 'Bama will probably sign between 20-25 players this year. They have 8 open schollies for sure, and another 4 possibly open depending on early entrants. So, if they only take the 20 they have now, they are oversigned by 8.

I can't argue, that crap needs to stop. Hopefully the SEC '28' rule will catch up with Miles and Saban. There should be red flags waving for recruits' parents if a school or coach is known for this. I just read today a Gator dad said he sat right in Miles' office and heard that BS sales pitch. He said Meyer told him everything straight. He is from Big10 country, and has good insight to big time recruiting.

ytownfootball;609305 wrote:Oversigning really makes it easier to not do your due diligence when it comes to projecting how a kid will perform in academics, social growth and on field performance. Sorry, but that is a recruiters responsibility and oversigning allows them to under perform their duties, that they're being compensated for.

Exactly. I can't believe that there are people who support "Let's take a flyer on this kid and if it doesn't work out, we'll throw him out with the trash".

bo shemmy3337;609308 wrote:even though I do not agree with oversighning at all, As a kid who just earned a degree. I don't feel bad for them getting free school for a couple years as I got 0 free years.

The typical "free" year involves working more hours and in most cases harder than the vast majority of students who work their way though school with more conventional employment.

Does oversigning have a negative affect on a schools APR score?

^^^^

that would be interesting to investigate... I'm sure they're might be a correlation between the two

darbypitcher22;609342 wrote:^^^^

that would be interesting to investigate... I'm sure they're might be a correlation between the two

I would think that it does affect their APR, but I might be wrong.

queencitybuckeye;609327 wrote:The typical "free" year involves working more hours and in most cases harder than the vast majority of students who work their way though school with more conventional employment.

I agree but my girlfriend is 100 grand in the hole from school and will be working extra hard the rest of her life to pay it off so I really do not feel bad for these guys. Just go to a school that excepts your credits and wants you to play football and get a degree.

Not to be callous, but your girlfriend could have gotten a perfectly fine college education for much less than that. It's something SHE chose to do.

Her situation has zero to do with whether or not student athletes work hard for their scholarships.

queencitybuckeye;609324 wrote:Exactly. I can't believe that there are people who support "Let's take a flyer on this kid and if it doesn't work out, we'll throw him out with the trash".

I'm not defending the coaches, I'm saying they're not the only ones to blame.

The kid who they're "taking a flyer on" know beforehand the situation they're going into, signing into a class that's oversigned. So don't sit here and pretend these kids and parents are ignorant to this process.

I don't imagine that "Well, how many scholarships do you have and how many have you offered?" is a question to be expected from players being recruited. Nor do I believe that's information ponied up by recruiters. It is one direction that the NCAA might head in terms of thwarting the practice if they're so nutless to do anything further. A full disclosure form signed by the recruit acknowledging said institution ascribes to this practice.

lhslep134;609473 wrote:The kid who they're "taking a flyer on" know beforehand the situation they're going into, signing into a class that's oversigned. So don't sit here and pretend these kids and parents are ignorant to this process.

I don't buy this for one second. When a top program walks into a kids living room, they certainly aren't there to waste their time. They obviously see something, so don't kid yourself, they don't go telling these kids what they are walking into. On top of that, many of these kids come from shit homes with uneducated parents, if any parents at all. LIke they are going to know what the hell is going on? Bullshit.

I don't care what spin some of you want to make, this is a shadey practice and gives these schools a decisive advantage in recruiting. When you can take a chance on that many kids, chances are, some are going to end up working out.

AZU, your theory is bullshit pal. Rarely do you EVER see a kid leaving a program, especially in football, where it hurts the program THAT much. And it rarely happens in bball as well. Pitiful spin on your part.

The NCAA needs to come down on this and soon. And shame on the Universities for allowing this to go on. Yes, this is high stakes sports at its highest level...but its still college institution we are talking about...not professional.

And for those thinking players should be paid....I call bullshit again. They are getting 20K plus a year to get an education. Many end up with cash in their hands with the money they get after the move off of campus. They get a certian amount no matter what they pay in rent/expenses. They also get all kinds of help on top of preferential treatment that other college kids never see. So please don't feed me the bullshit that they deserve to be paid.

centralbucksfan;609501 wrote:The NCAA needs to come down on this and soon. And shame on the Universities for allowing this to go on. Yes, this is high stakes sports at its highest level...but its still college institution we are talking about...not professional.

And for those thinking players should be paid....I call bullshit again. They are getting 20K plus a year to get an education. Many end up with cash in their hands with the money they get after the move off of campus. They get a certian amount no matter what they pay in rent/expenses. They also get all kinds of help on top of preferential treatment that other college kids never see. So please don't feed me the bullshit that they deserve to be paid.

But the NCAA continues to allow it to happen. If the NCAA is really this moral institution that they pretend to be, it's a really easy fix.

As for the Universities, you know that it's more a professional business than amateur athletics. How much revenue is generated from OSU football? And you want me to believe the #1 priority is educating them? The athletes are exploited and there is no way around it.

Should they be paid? Absolutely. But it won't ever happen. And the excuse that they get their education paid for is laughable.

Ohio State brings in about $50 million in football revenue. Break that down per player, say 100 which includes walk-ons, and it is $500,000 per player. I know some will argue that the product is Ohio State football more so than the individual players, but I don't buy into that.

The $20,000 that the athletes are being paid for their services is an absolute bargain.

thedynasty1998;609853 wrote:"... I know some will argue that the product is Ohio State football more so than the individual players, but I don't buy into that....

I personally do. Who the players are is irrelevant to me. The same applys to pro sports.

Con_Alma;609859 wrote:I personally do. Who the players are is irrelevant to me. The same applys to pro sports.

Yes and no. I know Ohio State itself is a brand name, but at the same time people go to the games to watch Pryor, Heyward, Herron, etc...

That's like saying that if the football team went on strike and they had a bunch of students fill in on a Saturday afternoon that there would be the same amount of interest.

And when you say it applies to professional sports, the current system sort of disproves your point. Guys are paid millions of dollars to improve the product on the field. A less competitive team doesn't bring in the same revenue as one that is. And if people did only care about the team name, owners certainly wouldn't pay millions to players, but would rather pay league minimum across the board as it wouldn't matter who the individual players are, and that's certainly not true.

It's an opinion of which I hold. Ohio State or an NFL franchise is the appeal and draw to me. The game itself is the overriding entertainment value. Who is putting the helmet on doesn't bring me to the game anymore than another.

I will watch the progress of the program 4 years from now just as I did 4 years ago. The players changed and the graduating players didn't force me to lose interest anymore than the new players didn't increase my interest. In fact, I have a greater interest in the USNA football program than I do The Ohio State University's program and it isn't due to the players that commit to there.

thedynasty1998;609864 wrote:but at the same time people go to the games to watch Pryor, Heyward, Herron, etc...

You might be able to say that for Ohio University, but I don't think you could really argue that at Ohio State. Sure people like watching those guys play and they are great... but there would still be 100k people at the shoe with or without Pryor or Heyward

Ohio State would simply be playing somebody else in their respective positions. Instead of seeing #2 jerseys running around we'd probably be seeing another number. If Pryor didn't come to Ohio State they would have grabbed another big time recruit and that guy would be the star that "everybody comes to watch"

thedynasty1998;609864 wrote:Yes and no. I know Ohio State itself is a brand name, but at the same time people go to the games to watch Pryor, Heyward, Herron, etc...

That's like saying that if the football team went on strike and they had a bunch of students fill in on a Saturday afternoon that there would be the same amount of interest.

And when you say it applies to professional sports, the current system sort of disproves your point. Guys are paid millions of dollars to improve the product on the field. A less competitive team doesn't bring in the same revenue as one that is. And if people did only care about the team name, owners certainly wouldn't pay millions to players, but would rather pay league minimum across the board as it wouldn't matter who the individual players are, and that's certainly not true.

If Pryor, Heyward, and Herron were all out for a game, you'd still have a packed house.

Al Bundy;609936 wrote:If Pryor, Heyward, and Herron were all out for a game, you'd still have a packed house.

And five years from now, where we don't have any idea who will be playing, the place will be full.

But it goes both ways. Ohio State is a good brand because of the players that play the game. Just as important as Tresses is, the players are as well. Plus when discussing revenue a large part of that is bowl game revenue. The players are the ones that get to the bowl game based on their performance. The BCS bowl bid more than pays for a scholarship.

thedynasty1998;609853 wrote:But the NCAA continues to allow it to happen. If the NCAA is really this moral institution that they pretend to be, it's a really easy fix.

As for the Universities, you know that it's more a professional business than amateur athletics. How much revenue is generated from OSU football? And you want me to believe the #1 priority is educating them? The athletes are exploited and there is no way around it.

Should they be paid? Absolutely. But it won't ever happen. And the excuse that they get their education paid for is laughable.

Ohio State brings in about $50 million in football revenue. Break that down per player, say 100 which includes walk-ons, and it is $500,000 per player. I know some will argue that the product is Ohio State football more so than the individual players, but I don't buy into that.

The $20,000 that the athletes are being paid for their services is an absolute bargain.

As I said, its the NCAA that does have to do it. But again, if some of these universities are going to talk shit about ethics, character, following rules or whatever...then back it up by forcing the coaches to do "it right".

Paid? Absolutely? Ok...tell me how exactly your going to do it? Yes, football brings in all that revenue and then there is mens basketball that brings in their share as well. But after that, every other sports loses money. So what are you going to do, pay mens football and basketball and no one else?
And believe you me, they are getting MUCH more then 20K. Thats only in tuition, room and board. They are also getting so much more in luxuries, food, clothing, the use of facilities, tutors, etc, etc. I could never guess what it comes out to be, but believe you me, its MUCH, MUCH more then just 20K. And thats just at OSU. How about an education at a place like ND? Check out the cost there.
Its not laughable. So NO, its not laughable at all when you think about everything these athletes are getting. The great ones are able to be trained and coached and use facilities that will lead them to millions in the NFL/NBA. The rest, with is MANY MANY more...are getting a free college degree. Its a win win for all involved.

Con_Alma;609869 wrote:It's an opinion of which I hold. Ohio State or an NFL franchise is the appeal and draw to me. The game itself is the overriding entertainment value. Who is putting the helmet on doesn't bring me to the game anymore than another.

I will watch the progress of the program 4 years from now just as I did 4 years ago. The players changed and the graduating players didn't force me to lose interest anymore than the new players didn't increase my interest. In fact, I have a greater interest in the USNA football program than I do The Ohio State University's program and it isn't due to the players that commit to there.

Spot on. I watch Ohio State games because they are Ohio State. I watched before Terrelle Pryor, and I'll watch when TP is gone. Sure, everyone has their favorites, but Ohio State football is the draw.

centralbucksfan;610402 wrote:As I said, its the NCAA that does have to do it. But again, if some of these universities are going to talk shit about ethics, character, following rules or whatever...then back it up by forcing the coaches to do "it right".

Paid? Absolutely? Ok...tell me how exactly your going to do it? Yes, football brings in all that revenue and then there is mens basketball that brings in their share as well. But after that, every other sports loses money. So what are you going to do, pay mens football and basketball and no one else?
And believe you me, they are getting MUCH more then 20K. Thats only in tuition, room and board. They are also getting so much more in luxuries, food, clothing, the use of facilities, tutors, etc, etc. I could never guess what it comes out to be, but believe you me, its MUCH, MUCH more then just 20K. And thats just at OSU. How about an education at a place like ND? Check out the cost there.
Its not laughable. So NO, its not laughable at all when you think about everything these athletes are getting. The great ones are able to be trained and coached and use facilities that will lead them to millions in the NFL/NBA. The rest, with is MANY MANY more...are getting a free college degree. Its a win win for all involved.

Agreed, I've heard and understand the arguments for paying student athletes, and find them unpersuasive. To the extent that they ever are paid, it should be a quasi-trust fund that gets delivered to them when they graduate. Part of the problems on campus are athletes being treated differently (to your point free tutors, their own cafeteria, unlimited access to their own private gyms) - paying them on top of it would likely create an even greater caste system.