Scarlet_Buckeye;608573 wrote:How in the hell can it be the kids fault here?!

For choosing to sign in a class that is oversigned, when he (I'm making a very big assumption here) probably had at least one offer from a (maybe much) lesser school.

se-alum;609105 wrote:It should be noted that not all SEC teams partake in oversigning. Georgia, Florida, Vandy, and I believe Tennessee do not oversign.

Funny how those that have been most successful the past several years, including two of the BCS title winners; three, if Auburn wins this year; aren't among them.

Writerbuckeye;609128 wrote:Funny how those that have been most successful the past several years, including two of the BCS title winners; three, if Auburn wins this year; aren't among them.

Uhm Florida is among them....

Writerbuckeye;609125 wrote:I don't believe in a win at all costs philosophy.

I agree with this in principle, but it's not reality. Boosters and AD's expect coaches to win. If they don't, they lose their job. Charlie Weis graduated his players, but it wasn't good enough.

So in a way, a coach almost has to adopt a win first attitude, and if oversigning helps, then that's how it will continue to be.

It's a really simple fix, but the NCAA refuses to do it. Say that each scholarship is for four years, with certain guidelines that must be met (i.e. academic minimums, participation requirements).

lhslep134;609132 wrote:Uhm Florida is among them....

One exception out of four schools we're talking about (LSU, Alabama, Auburn and Florida).

Writerbuckeye;608598 wrote:If a football team tried to take a player on scholarship and switch him to some sort of other aid, I would be amazed if that's not against NCAA rules. All that's doing is stashing a kid away who was a scholarship player. In the NCAA's eyes, I'm sure they would say the kid should still count against the 85 number. It's no different than someone who runs track joining the football team. If that happens, the kids scholarship counts toward football, not track.

I didn't want to get into this debate but your last part of this quote is 100% incorrect. If you go to a college and receive a scholarship for track and then decided to play football as well and continue to run track and you will be on scholarship for track. Now the football coach could offer you a scholarship for football that would be more than the one for track and then that would count against the football program. Now if the kid is just running track and is a walk on or quits running track and plays football and the coach gives him a scholarship than yes that counts against football.

thedynasty1998;609139 wrote:I agree with this in principle, but it's not reality. Boosters and AD's expect coaches to win. If they don't, they lose their job. Charlie Weis graduated his players, but it wasn't good enough.

So in a way, a coach almost has to adopt a win first attitude, and if oversigning helps, then that's how it will continue to be.

It's a really simple fix, but the NCAA refuses to do it. Say that each scholarship is for four years, with certain guidelines that must be met (i.e. academic minimums, participation requirements).

what's wrong with leaving it the way it is (1 yr. commitments) and not allowing a team to sign once they get to 85 scholarship players? For instance:
a team has 21 FR, 21 SO, 23 JR, 20 SR.
Signing day is in Feb. the deadline to declare for the draft is sometime in January so you know with time (albeit not much) to spare how many players you're losing. Say 5 JR declare for the draft that puts that team at 60 players, assume they have 20 players commited before the 5 JR declare, now you can go out and sign 5 more players by signing day or roll those scholly's to the next year.

Pretty sure I'm not wrong. You will count against the football total of 85 the minute you step on the field in a game; your scholarship then reverts to football.

The NCAA doesn't allow floating between the minor and major sports like that -- because it would be an easy way to get some extra football players without paying them scholarships.

Iliketurtles;609150 wrote:I didn't want to get into this debate but your last part of this quote is 100% incorrect. If you go to a college and receive a scholarship for track and then decided to play football as well and continue to run track and you will be on scholarship for track. Now the football coach could offer you a scholarship for football that would be more than the one for track and then that would count against the football program. Now if the kid is just running track and is a walk on or quits running track and plays football and the coach gives him a scholarship than yes that counts against football.

Can you explain this further. So a guy who runs track at Ohio State and is on a partial, if he plays football he doesn't count? But if he's on a full track scholarship he does?

Are D1 football programs only allowed to offer full rides?

Dynasty, see my answer. The minute a track guy steps foot on a football field in a game, he becomes a football scholarship player.

Writerbuckeye;609157 wrote:Dynasty, see my answer. The minute a track guy steps foot on a football field in a game, he becomes a football scholarship player.

That's what I thought, but turtles seemed to know something I didn't.

thedynasty1998;609153 wrote:Can you explain this further. So a guy who runs track at Ohio State and is on a partial, if he plays football he doesn't count? But if he's on a full track scholarship he does?

Are D1 football programs only allowed to offer full rides?

To answer your second question no they obviously can offer partial scholarships(I'm sure you already knew this because you don't seem like the idiot COA makes you out to be).

To answer your question if a kid signs a LOI for a partial or full scholarship to run track and goes out for football and plays football as well as runs track then he is considered a walkon for football and a track scholarship athlete and his scholarship counts towards track.

Now if the kid quits track and is offered a football scholarship then obviously he is no longer a track athlete but now a football athlete and his scholarship counts against football.

Writerbuckeye;609157 wrote:Dynasty, see my answer. The minute a track guy steps foot on a football field in a game, he becomes a football scholarship player.

See my answer above if a kid signs a LOI for track hes a track scholarship athlete.

Also I guess I should have called you out and said you were 100% wrong... I guess I could be 100% wrong but this is just how I've always understood things because of when I was in college I had a friend who ran track/played football and he had a track scholarship and it counted against track and not football.

I thought it was different than what you are saying, but I honestly don't know for certain.

Couple things:
I believe a D1 school can only offer full rides. Other sports at the D1 level and offer partials, but I don't think football and basketball can. You are either full ride or non athletic scholarship

Really don't know the ruling on a track guy. I always thought that if they played football they had to be on football scholarship or they had to a walk on in both track and football.

Track coaches love football players who run track because it's a free full ride. But football coaches will not allow a track guy to come out for football because it will eat up a scholarship.

Maybe you guys are right and everything you said could be true(especially the part about football and basketball only being allowed to offer full rides Im pretty certain your right about other sports being allowed to offer partials). Also my bases is coming from someone who particiated in athletics at the D2 which I know rules regarding scholarships are different but I didn't think it would be completely different haha. If I wasnt at work I'd go look everything up Im really interested in knowing the rules about all this stuff now.

lhslep134;609126 wrote:For choosing to sign in a class that is oversigned, when he (I'm making a very big assumption here) probably had at least one offer from a (maybe much) lesser school.

#Dumb

Iliketurtles;609179 wrote:Maybe you guys are right and everything you said could be true(especially the part about football and basketball only being allowed to offer full rides Im pretty certain your right about other sports being allowed to offer partials). Also my bases is coming from someone who particiated in athletics at the D2 which I know rules regarding scholarships are different but I didn't think it would be completely different haha. If I wasnt at work I'd go look everything up Im really interested in knowing the rules about all this stuff now.

It is different at D2. D2 can offer partials across the board and combine them with academic based scholarships and need based scholarships. I found it interesting, because a D2 basketball team if smart, they could potentially have more scholarship guys that a D1.

The main difference in D2 and D1, besides scholarship count, is how they have to be used in basketball and football. There are not any partial scholarship football or basketball players.

NCAA wrote:15.5.9 Multi-Sport Participants.


15.5.9.1 Football. [FBS/FCS] In football, a counter who was recruited and/or offered financial aid to participate in football and who participates (practices or competes) in football and one or more sports (including basketball) shall be counted in football. A counter who was not recruited and/or offered financial aid to participate in football and who competes in football and one or more sports (including basketball) shall be counted infootball. (Revised: 1/10/95 effective 8/1/95, 1/9/96 effective 8/1/96)

Writerbuckeye is right. if you play football you count for football. end of story.

thedynasty1998;609184 wrote:It is different at D2. D2 can offer partials across the board and combine them with academic based scholarships and need based scholarships. I found it interesting, because a D2 basketball team is smart, they could potentially have more scholarship guys that a D1.

The main difference in D2 and D1, besides scholarship count, is how they have to be used in basketball and football. There are not any partial scholarship football or basketball players.

Yeah that's what I meant about being totally different is how D1 football and basketball can only offer full rides. As for your first point yeah that is pretty great for the D2 schools. I know for our cross country team for the school I attended 3 out of the top 5 guys were all on full rides with the academic/athletic scholarships they received.

writerbuckeye I'd like to apologize as it appears you were correct. Still it was a fun discussion haha.

j crazy thanks for looking it up!

Speedofsand;608835 wrote:SEC was highest at 103. Pretty close to the 25 per year limit. So when the Big10 has attrition (ex: Duron Carter) don't they give another scholly to the next guy? Does the Big10 avg. 4 less schollies a year on the team compared to the SEC because of attrition ? The SEC '28' rule will be a slight advantage over the Big10, but not other confs.

That 25 per year limit doesn't really mean anything when your talking about oversigning. Yes, SEC is close based on the 25, but I'm sure they aren't close on the actual amount of schollies they have available as opposed to how many they signed. For instance, 'Bama will probably sign between 20-25 players this year. They have 8 open schollies for sure, and another 4 possibly open depending on early entrants. So, if they only take the 20 they have now, they are oversigned by 8.

Can someone clear something up for me? When they oversign and "cut" these kids do they lose their scholarships or just their spots on the team?

enigmaax;608587 wrote:Honest questions. In the snipet I saw (didn't see the whole OTL), the Miami kid said he had to go talk to someone about getting financial aid and seemed to imply that he had the option of continuing to attend Miami on scholarship, he was just no longer going to be a part of the football team. If he was promised a college education and he's going to get a college education, what is the problem in that case?

This is what I'm also asking.

FatHobbit;609222 wrote:Can someone clear something up for me? When they oversign and "cut" these kids do they lose their scholarships or just their spots on the team?

Scholarships. That is the whole point of getting rid of the player, to free up one of the 85 schollies. Now, a player can accept a medical hardship waiver, and continue to get their financial aid, but can never play for that team again. The MHW is the Nick Saban preferred way of doing things, and also what Shannon was trying to get the Miami player to do.

enigmaax;608587 wrote:Honest questions. In the snipet I saw (didn't see the whole OTL), the Miami kid said he had to go talk to someone about getting financial aid and seemed to imply that he had the option of continuing to attend Miami on scholarship, he was just no longer going to be a part of the football team. If he was promised a college education and he's going to get a college education, what is the problem in that case? Also, wasn't he going into his fifth season? Does the sympathy extend to someone who doesn't complete his academic load in the normal time?

In all of the examples that are being criticized, how many of those students actually did not (or were not offered) scholarship money from a different source? I guess, from the few things I've read the kids are feeling burned about not getting to play anymore, which is a completely different topic from the promise to have college paid for.

He was sent to someone to talk about his financial aid, not necessarily about getting financial aid. They were going to give him a MHW, which obviously he would've continued to get his money.

Iliketurtles;609191 wrote:Yeah that's what I meant about being totally different is how D1 football and basketball can only offer full rides. As for your first point yeah that is pretty great for the D2 schools. I know for our cross country team for the school I attended 3 out of the top 5 guys were all on full rides with the academic/athletic scholarships they received.

writerbuckeye I'd like to apologize as it appears you were correct. Still it was a fun discussion haha.

j crazy thanks for looking it up!

No problem. I knew I was right about this. Otherwise, you'd see schools stashing all kinds of football players in other sports.

Scarlet_Buckeye;609183 wrote:#Dumb

No, you're setting a double standard here.


If you only care about playing football, then don't sign in a class where you could be cut, go to a lesser school if you're going to cry about getting cut because you aren't good enough (I'm VERY against cutting someone because of injury, but not because of underperformance).

If you care about academics, then guess what, if your schollie is removed, you still attend the school. If your family can't afford the school, then apply for financial aid.

Again, stop blaming just the coaches, they're not the only ones at fault. If a kid doesn't earn their scholarship, then why should they get it the following year? If someone doesn't meet the requirements of an academic scholarship, then it's revoked. It's really not different at all, except in the instance of injury.