Red Rider Nation;593294 wrote:I am tired of talking about massillon football - that is the most overrated program in Ohio. In 1999 they recruited a D4 QB that won a state title and thought he was the greates thing since sliced bread - newsflash tigers: he had a better team at orrville than he ever did at Massillon and justin if all you wanted to do was go to Ohio st you should have stayed at Orrville because you had a way better football team there period!!! Since the playoffs started Massillon has won exactly zero state championships = way overrated!!! Their fans are stupid asses too! Because you are independent and play 8 home games every year, you make the playoffs but never due jack squat!

I agree with this, REAL BIG ONES TOO, the way they repeatedly knocked over the Zwicks mail box....turfed their lawn repeatedly....vandalizing their property in general repeatedly....Oh....wait....that was....yeah, that wasn't Massillon fans....THAT WAS ORRVILLE FANS.

Probably you.

skank;594430 wrote:If you believe the highlighted portion, let's just say you need to get out more. Seeing in the post above where you direct a comment....directly AT JZ, makes me think you are taking this pretty hard....STILL. Massillon hasn't played 8 home games in about 15 years. I don't know how old you are, my guess is anywhere from 15-21, but do you remember a man named Mo Tipton? Yeah, didn't think so, I remember when EVERY team in Wayne county HATED that man because he had the reputation as the best recruiter around.

Actually Im 35 and remember Mo real well. He never recruited anyone. Do you have any examples? I didnt think so. Hey how is Justin Zwicks dad doing as a school administrator? Oh thats right that was a made up position for a star QBs dad. And it ended along with Zwicks sorry career in Massillon. And yes I am certain we had a better team than you. And I was wrong you dont play 8 home games per year actually its 7 (Big difference). All you Massillon people do is live your life through an overrated football program. You will never win a state title I can guarantee that

I would like to see this system in place:

Division I-III private schools play Division I
Division IV-VI private schools play Division II

One stat to make you think....Not one public school in Division IV-VI has won a state title since 2007! It is only going to get worse until the OHSAA does something about it.

skank;594442 wrote:So what you're saying, is that a Private school in the smallest division, defeated a public school....in the largest division? And therin lies the problem.

That private school, DSJ, finished 6-4, 5-4 in the MAC. After beating Kilbourne, they lost to Anna, Marion Local, Coldwater and St. Henry; all public schools by the way. DSJ also nipped Div VI Minster 26-21, another public school. I think that says a more about the power of the MAC than anything about private schools.

NNN;593344 wrote:As long as we're talking about enrollment caps across divisions, back in 2006 Delphos St. John's (D-6) played Worthington Kilbourne (D-1). St. John's finished 6-4 and out of the playoffs, but one of those wins was against Kilbourne...

Random thoughts:
- Whatever happened to Bedford Chanel? In the last four years, they've gone 6-5, 3-7, 4-5, and 2-7.
- What happened to Hamilton Badin? About 10 years ago, they were either D-2 or D-3 and in the state semis; now they're D-5.
- What about Benedictine? Since winning the title in 2004, they've gone 4-6, 2-8, 4-6, 3-7, 3-7, and 2-8.

What happened to Bedford Chanel you ask.....The formation of the Glenville Academy!

OrrvilleQB;594800 wrote:I would like to see this system in place:

Division I-III private schools play Division I
Division IV-VI private schools play Division II

One stat to make you think....Not one public school in Division IV-VI has won a state title since 2007! It is only going to get worse until the OHSAA does something about it.

Another stat to make you think...private schools have won 36 state titles in Division IV-VI since the playoff system started. Public schools have won 51. Also, private schools have appeared in 64 title games in Division IV-VI since the playoff system started. Public schools have appeared in 110.

So the last three years are just the private schools playing catch-up in the public school DOMINATION of the lower divisions.

But you're right...private schools have an unfair advantage in those divisions.

Private schools also only makeup 10% of the schools in the OHSAA...

Please read this blog done by a fellow Red Rider Chatterer....a lot of great stats and involves other sports too.

http://www.redridersportsblog.com/2010/12/complaining-about-parochial.html

OrrvilleQB;594880 wrote:Private schools also only makeup 10% of the schools in the OHSAA...

Please read this blog done by a fellow Red Rider Chatterer....a lot of great stats and involves other sports too.

http://www.redridersportsblog.com/2010/12/complaining-about-parochial.html

Yes...but the private schools that have actually won championships make up about 5% of the total number of schools. And the public schools that have actually won championships make up about 13% of the total number of schools. What exactly is the point? Good schools continue to do well year after year (which is exactly why you will see a school in a state championship game multiple times in a 4 year stretch).

I just don't get why you guys think that moving the private schools out of the lower divisions will magically open up those divisions to this great public school parity where teams that have never won will all of a sudden become multi-year champions. Will the occasional team flare up and win a championship here and there? Sure. Will the MAC schools win a majority of the championships? Absolutely! They already win most of the championships in the lower divisions. Moving out the private schools will just take the competition away from them. It won't magically allow the schools that field teams of 20 kids to magically have a better chance at winning the state championship.

I can see your point, haha. The MAC is an unbelievable league, and I have always wondered how they get so many great football teams from that league into the championship game year after year when they are that small of a school....

I just know this topic will NEVER go away until something is done about it....Haha, We all hate talking about this, but after the past few years it has to raise attention to the OHSAA.

OrrvilleQB;594896 wrote:I just know this topic will NEVER go away until something is done about it....Haha, We all hate talking about this, but after the past few years it has to raise attention to the OHSAA.

You are right. But moving the private schools out completely is not a good option. And moving up all private schools a division or two will not affect things very much. DSJ, Ursuline, Mooney, and Newark Catholic will all still be very competitive up one or two divisions.

I still feel that my proposal of a multiplier based on the grade schools that the kids come from is the best way to level things. Privates get hit with a multiplier if a public school 8th grader chooses to go to a private high school...and publics get hit with a multiplier if a private school 8th grader chooses to go to the public high school.

So what division does Massillon move up to if they're recruiting from other districts? They're already in division 1? Oh wait, they still can't win a state title so it shouldn't matter......

Bigdogg;593868 wrote:You forgot Marion Catholic, they had to drop football this year. Kilbourne was in their first year as a new school I believe, and was just starting a team heavy with underclassmen. Who knows what happened to the programs you mentioned. Maybe they made poor choices in hiring coaches, or lost community support, or maybe they made a decision to emphasize academics. There are a lot of factors necessary to build a successful sports program.

Let's be honest here. If your goal was to open a private high school and attract the best students, wouldn't be prudent of you to market your school by having the best academics, best facilities, best coaches, best sports programs, no behavior problems etc? All this and no transparency because you are private and are not required to be held o the same standards as the public schools.

Kilbourne opened in....I think it was 1991.

The basic point I was making is that what's noteworthy today is not going to be noteworthy tomorrow. To give an example, it's been suggested that prospective Hall of Famers in baseball need to hit minimum levels of statistical achievement before being considered. But no one could have foreseen the decline of the 300-game winner, which was once common, or the rise of the closer, for whom less than 100 career wins is common.

So in this case, perennial powers who have had success as recently as six years ago have more or less collapsed. Youngstown Public as a district has basically collapsed; there are more private schools in Youngstown than public ones. No one could have seen the splitting of schools in central Ohio or the consolidation in the northern part of the state, nor fully imagined the massive shifts that have taken place.

So to make a massive fundamental change to address something that is an issue at this time is nonsensical, because we have no idea what the future holds. There could be a huge surge in private school enrollment tomorrow that decimates public school athletics, and there could be a massive slump that results in private school closures and boosts publics. But once the genie is out of the bottle, it's not going back in.

OrrvilleQB;594823 wrote:What happened to Bedford Chanel you ask.....The formation of the Glenville Academy!

You mean the Glenville Academy that, year in and year out, gets between 5 and 15 new football players from the surrounding areas and schools? The Glenville Academy that apparently attracts kids away from University School, St. Ignatius, St. Ed's, and a few others on the basis strictly of academics?

Mmkay.

Red Rider Nation;594795 wrote:Actually Im 35 and remember Mo real well. He never recruited anyone. Do you have any examples? I didnt think so. Hey how is Justin Zwicks dad doing as a school administrator? Oh thats right that was a made up position for a star QBs dad. And it ended along with Zwicks sorry career in Massillon. And yes I am certain we had a better team than you. And I was wrong you dont play 8 home games per year actually its 7 (Big difference). All you Massillon people do is live your life through an overrated football program. You will never win a state title I can guarantee that

Green=Exactly WHAT year did you have a "better team"?
Red=You mean "living your life through a program" Like being so upset that adults would turf lawns, vandalize property, and repeatedly knock over a persons mail box?
Again....What year? The 3 years following JZ's transfer, Massillon went 8-3, 12-2 & 11-3....Over that same time span, Orrville went, 6-4, 2-8 & 2-8
Let's look at some Massillon/Orrville facts here

Since 2000:

Massillon (Reg Season) 74-36 .670 pct.
Orrville (Reg Season) 64-46 .580 pct.

Massillon (Playoffs) 14-8 .630 pct.
Orrville (playoffs) 7-6 .530 pct.

Massillon (Home Record) 59-16 .780 pct.
Orrville (Home Record) 35-20 .630 pct.

Massillon: 8 Playoff Appearances 72%
Orrville: 6 Playoff Appearances 54%

Massillon: 4 State Semi Final Appearances
Orrville: 1 State Semi Final Appearances

Massillon: 1 State Championship Appearance
Orrville: 0 State Championship Appearances

Now....Let's look at some common opponent facts over the same time span....Shall we?

2000
Marion Harding 43
Orrville 7

Marion Harding 17
Massillon 13
---------------------------
2001
Marion Harding 27
Orrville 6

Massillon 31
Marion Harding 0
------------------------

Another common opponent....Mansfield Sr.

2000
Mansfield 60
Orrville 7 OUCH

Massillon 27
Mansfield 7
----------------------
2001
Mansfield 33
Orrville 0

Massillon 17
Mansfield 14
-----------------------
2002
Mansfield 35
Orrville 28

Massillon 56
Mansfield 0
---------------------
2003
Mansfield 26
Orrville 12

Massillon 35
Mansfield 12
-----------------------------
2004
Orrville 42
Mansfield 16

Massillon 58
Mansfield 20
------------------------
2005
Mansfield 47
Orrville 37

Massillon 55
Mansfield 0

Also in 2005
Dover 29
Orrville 22

Massillon 34
Dover 0

A closer look will reveal that from 2000 to 2005 Massillon and Orrville both played Mansfield 6 times, Massillon was 6-0....Orrville 1-5

Average score during those years you ask?
Massillon 41.3 Mansfield 8.8
Mansfield 36.1 Orrville 21.0

Mooney44Cards;594924 wrote:So what division does Massillon move up to if they're recruiting from other districts? They're already in division 1? Oh wait, they still can't win a state title so it shouldn't matter......

^^^^Said a fan of a team who reaps the OHSAA benefits....And has out recruited YSU over the years.

skank;595747 wrote:Green=Exactly WHAT year did you have a "better team"?
Red=You mean "living your life through a program" Like being so upset that adults would turf lawns, vandalize property, and repeatedly knock over a persons mail box?
Again....What year? The 3 years following JZ's transfer, Massillon went 8-3, 12-2 & 11-3....Over that same time span, Orrville went, 6-4, 2-8 & 2-8
Let's look at some Massillon/Orrville facts here
/QUOTE]

Well skank, I now retract my comment that said you are incapable of considering data. It appears that if you find some in your favor you are pretty well-organized. If you can prove somehow that Massillon could probably beat a solid D-IV school, you're all over it. If you can't "prove" it (like with Ironton) you just insult and bait folks. And if you have no data at all (on the main argument that somehow "no public can win a state title in any division and all privates have unfair advantages (I think that's your "main "point""), you just sorta get emotional.

skank;595752 wrote:^^^^Said a fan of a team who reaps the OHSAA benefits....And has out recruited YSU over the years.

Hmmm.....YSU.....isn't that where Jared Zwick played in college? I think he went to HS at Orrville, and so did his little brother Just....oh wait!

Alma_Parker;595754 wrote:

skank;595747 wrote:Green=Exactly WHAT year did you have a "better team"?
Red=You mean "living your life through a program" Like being so upset that adults would turf lawns, vandalize property, and repeatedly knock over a persons mail box?
Again....What year? The 3 years following JZ's transfer, Massillon went 8-3, 12-2 & 11-3....Over that same time span, Orrville went, 6-4, 2-8 & 2-8
Let's look at some Massillon/Orrville facts here
/QUOTE]

Well skank, I now retract my comment that said you are incapable of considering data. It appears that if you find some in your favor you are pretty well-organized. If you can prove somehow that Massillon could probably beat a solid D-IV school, you're all over it. If you can't "prove" it (like with Ironton) you just insult and bait folks. And if you have no data at all (on the main argument that somehow "no public can win a state title in any division and all privates have unfair advantages (I think that's your "main "point""), you just sorta get emotional.

Don't look at it as me proving that Massillon can beat the solid D-IV school, look at it as me proving that the solid D-IV school can't beat Massillon. I entered this thread to discuss the public/private topic, and I got you small school guys nipping at my heels. You guys want to compare your schools to Massillon, but when I respond, you try to make it look like I"M THE ONE sitting here pounding my chest yelling, "COME ON ALL YOU D-IV SCHOOLS....WE'LL TAKE YOU ALL ON". In all seriousness, I know Ironton and Orrville play some damn good football, and I'm not saying that you would NEVER beat Massillon, but you guys act like they would win 4, 5, or 6 times out of 10, when in all reality, I believe Massillon would win 9.5 out of 10, sorry, that just aint happening.

skank;595747 wrote:Green=Exactly WHAT year did you have a "better team"?
Red=You mean "living your life through a program" Like being so upset that adults would turf lawns, vandalize property, and repeatedly knock over a persons mail box?
Again....What year? The 3 years following JZ's transfer, Massillon went 8-3, 12-2 & 11-3....Over that same time span, Orrville went, 6-4, 2-8 & 2-8
Let's look at some Massillon/Orrville facts here

Since 2000:

Massillon (Reg Season) 74-36 .670 pct.
Orrville (Reg Season) 64-46 .580 pct.

Massillon (Playoffs) 14-8 .630 pct.
Orrville (playoffs) 7-6 .530 pct.

Massillon (Home Record) 59-16 .780 pct.
Orrville (Home Record) 35-20 .630 pct.

Massillon: 8 Playoff Appearances 72%
Orrville: 6 Playoff Appearances 54%

Massillon: 4 State Semi Final Appearances
Orrville: 1 State Semi Final Appearances

Massillon: 1 State Championship Appearance
Orrville: 0 State Championship Appearances

Now....Let's look at some common opponent facts over the same time span....Shall we?

2000
Marion Harding 43
Orrville 7

Marion Harding 17
Massillon 13
---------------------------
2001
Marion Harding 27
Orrville 6

Massillon 31
Marion Harding 0
------------------------

Another common opponent....Mansfield Sr.

2000
Mansfield 60
Orrville 7 OUCH

Massillon 27
Mansfield 7
----------------------
2001
Mansfield 33
Orrville 0

Massillon 17
Mansfield 14
-----------------------
2002
Mansfield 35
Orrville 28

Massillon 56
Mansfield 0
---------------------
2003
Mansfield 26
Orrville 12

Massillon 35
Mansfield 12
-----------------------------
2004
Orrville 42
Mansfield 16

Massillon 58
Mansfield 20
------------------------
2005
Mansfield 47
Orrville 37

Massillon 55
Mansfield 0

Also in 2005
Dover 29
Orrville 22

Massillon 34
Dover 0

A closer look will reveal that from 2000 to 2005 Massillon and Orrville both played Mansfield 6 times, Massillon was 6-0....Orrville 1-5

Average score during those years you ask?
Massillon 41.3 Mansfield 8.8
Mansfield 36.1 Orrville 21.0

Great facts skank! You really dont know crap. The most important fact is this: Orrville = 1 state titlle and Massillon = 0 state titles in that time frame. Hey how is Davoe Torrence making out? Did I really say making out? Ya I did with a 12 year old girl that is. How is it all these kids you recruit come to ASS-ILLON and dont do squat? Re: Zwick, Torrence, Oregon dude. Is it a coincidence or is your program just not as good as the ASS-ILLON community claims it is? So keep wearing your orange hunting gear, calling off work (you probably dont even work) and tailgating in the parkling lot every Friday night for your 7 home games and enjoy what most consider the most overrated high school football program in Ohio!!!!!!!

Mooney44Cards;595768 wrote:Hmmm.....YSU.....isn't that where Jared Zwick played in college? I think he went to HS at Orrville, and so did his little brother Just....oh wait!

Hey you are really smart with that private school education you have? Yes Jared Zwick did play at YSU and whaton earth is your point?

Red Rider Nation;595795 wrote:Hey you are really smart with that private school education you have? Yes Jared Zwick did play at YSU and whaton earth is your point?

My God are you stupid, he's not slamming on you....he's slamming on me....PLEASE tell me you're not that stupid....PLEASE.

Red Rider Nation;595793 wrote:Great facts skank! You really dont know crap. The most important fact is this: Orrville = 1 state titlle and Massillon = 0 state titles in that time frame. Hey how is Davoe Torrence making out? Did I really say making out? Ya I did with a 12 year old girl that is. How is it all these kids you recruit come to ASS-ILLON and dont do squat? Re: Zwick, Torrence, Oregon dude. Is it a coincidence or is your program just not as good as the ASS-ILLON community claims it is? So keep wearing your orange hunting gear, calling off work (you probably dont even work) and tailgating in the parkling lot every Friday night for your 7 home games and enjoy what most consider the most overrated high school football program in Ohio!!!!!!!

Green = No. not in that time frame.
Red = One L in the word title.
His name is Devoe....NOT Davoe.
I wouldn't bring up "Davoe", if I were you, I seem to remember a guy....(And if you're 35 like you claim, you should too)....Named Skibo Sims....Huh? Ring a bell?
ASS-ILLON? Congratulations, you are the one millionth person to use this word. You can collect your prize at the end of the welfare line....seeing as how you're probably already there.
Purple = there is no L in parking.

Red Rider Nation;595795 wrote:Hey you are really smart with that private school education you have? Yes Jared Zwick did play at YSU and whaton earth is your point?

Jeez, awful defensive aren't we?

And yes, that was a slam on Massillon, not on Orrville. My private school taught me all about reading comprehension.....maybe you should go back a read my post a few more times until you get it. Facts you should know ahead of time to actually get the joke: Justin Zwick transferred from Orrville to Massillon (I hope you knew that), also skank is a Massillon supporter who is bashing private school for their unfair recruiting advantage. This is something that my private school taught me about, its called "irony", or perhaps even "hypocrisy".

Is assillon supposed to be hyphenated (as in ass-illon) or are both spellings acceptable.....should the A be capitalized or not? Thanks in advance.