skank;584068 wrote:Just admit it Bundy, Mooney recruits....Recruits....Recruits.

All talk...no facts.

Prove it. If you have proof that Mooney recruits...bring it to the OHSAA.

500+ posts and neither side will give an inch. I just hope that the argument brought to the OHSAA sounds as whiny as some of the stuff on here. Because if it is...NOTHING will change. I've tried to show facts and stats that prove to you that you're not correct in your assumptions, but some of you are so blinded by your hate of private schools that nothing is going to change your mind.

Sykotyk and tsst...it was fun debating with you. It's nice to see that some people can still have a normal conversation without resorting to false accusations and blanket claims.

I'm pretty much done with this. I've said my peace. It'll be a sad day if the OHSAA decides to split the playoffs, and I think it will ruin one of the best playoff experiences in the country. No matter what happens, there are going to be people like skank who get their panties in a bunch and whine and cry that it's not fair. Let's just hope that if the issue comes before the OHSAA anytime soon, there's more people like sykotyk and tsst and alma making the decision instead of guys like skank and thinthick.

fish82;583378 wrote:If the "advantages" are that egregious, then why do so few privates consistently dominate? As sherm illustrated, there a multitude of private schools that don't even sniff the playoffs, let alone a title.

[sarcasm font]Ahhh yes. Fischer Catholic and Cincinnati Christian haven't sniffed the playoffs. Thanks for the unadulterated attestation that guideline inequities are mythical. My egregious ways shall be thwarted. I will henceforth celebrate the equitable virtuousness that is the Ursuline way! Viva la threepeat![/sarcasm font]

Check that. What I meant to say was... The fact that Fischer Catholic and Cincinnati Christian haven't sniffed the playoffs means naught. If you truly desire to demonstrate that questioning the guidelines is moot do the following. Prove to me that schools like Ursuline (not Bishop Rosecrans, not Grove City Christian) 'acquire' their players from an area populous similar in size to other D5 schools (about 1500 people). And that when they do attain all that talent it is NOT due to having and utilizing state guideline-free unrestricted 'acquisition' ability.

tsst_fballfan;584738 wrote:[sarcasm font]Ahhh yes. Fischer Catholic and Cincinnati Christian haven't sniffed the playoffs. Thanks for the unadulterated attestation that guideline inequities are mythical. My egregious ways shall be thwarted. I will henceforth celebrate the equitable virtuousness that is the Ursuline way! Viva la threepeat![/sarcasm font]

Check that. What I meant to say was... The fact that Fischer Catholic and Cincinnati Christian haven't sniffed the playoffs means naught. If you truly desire to demonstrate that questioning the guidelines is moot do the following. Prove to me that schools like Ursuline (not Bishop Rosecrans, not Grove City Christian) 'acquire' their players from an area populous similar in size to other D5 schools (about 1500 people). And that when they do attain all that talent it is NOT due to having and utilizing state guideline-free unrestricted 'acquisition' ability.

Not that it matters, but 1500 is probably more like D6. The village of Coldwater alone has 4500 residents. Again, I've not disputed that some of the privates take advantage of being able to draw from a larger area. But considering the relatively small number of private schools that "dominate" like Ursuline, (despite having been mediocre at best for 60% of the decade, which everyone seems to ignore) I don't see a fair solution worth trashing the best playoff system in the country.

And FWIW, all the Catholic schools in Cincinnati only draw from within their parish boundaries. St. X is the only large private school that can draw from anywhere. CHCA can as well, but their "domination" has been pretty much nil.

And FYI...your posting style doesn't make you seem nearly as intelligent as you think it does. Just sayin.

fish82;585121 wrote:Not that it matters, but 1500 is probably more like D6. The village of Coldwater alone has 4500 residents. Again, I've not disputed that some of the privates take advantage of being able to draw from a larger area. But considering the relatively small number of private schools that "dominate" like Ursuline, (despite having been mediocre at best for 60% of the decade, which everyone seems to ignore) I don't see a fair solution worth trashing the best playoff system in the country.
And FWIW, all the Catholic schools in Cincinnati only draw from within their parish boundaries. St. X is the only large private school that can draw from anywhere. CHCA can as well, but their "domination" has been pretty much nil.

And FYI...your posting style doesn't make you seem nearly as intelligent as you think it does. Just sayin.

You're familiar with each and every tournament in the country, how it's run, and why it's run the way it is? That's impressive.

skank;585294 wrote:You're familiar with each and every tournament in the country, how it's run, and why it's run the way it is? That's impressive.

I know, right?

I haven't read through the 20+ pages yet but I did see this...

skank;567177 wrote: How many courses do you offer for kids with learning disabilities?.

Why is this not a valid argument for private schools? Students that have learning, behavioral issues, etc. will not make it at some of these private schools because of lack of resources and because the administration know that they will not make. Why waste a year of their high school? If you want to get even deeper into it, fix your public school system! Stop letting kids "run" the school. The problem with the public school system is they have a "right" to be there. But in all actuality, they have no right to interfere with another student's learning. They should be able to get rid of them. That doesn't mean that all public schools are bad that means look how much better they could be.

Also, I have no idea about this but I thought I read somewhere that students with severe disabilities that are not able to participate in sports are not counted towards the OHSAA enrollment? I could be entirely wrong on this.

skank;567177 wrote:Red=Again, open enrollment does not equal open recruiting. They have to come to us....We can't go to them.

You absolutely can go to them... All schools, public or private are allowed to mass market what they have to offer. Mass marketing refers to not targeting a specific student.

OHSAA Bylaw 4-9-3
All member high schools are permitted to mass market their entire high school program and all of its elements for the purpose of informing and recruiting students.

Context my friend....Context.

fish82;585121 wrote:Not that it matters, but 1500 is probably more like D6. The village of Coldwater alone has 4500 residents. Again, I've not disputed that some of the privates take advantage of being able to draw from a larger area. But considering the relatively small number of private schools that "dominate" like Ursuline, (despite having been mediocre at best for 60% of the decade, which everyone seems to ignore) I don't see a fair solution worth trashing the best playoff system in the country.

And FWIW, all the Catholic schools in Cincinnati only draw from within their parish boundaries. St. X is the only large private school that can draw from anywhere. CHCA can as well, but their "domination" has been pretty much nil. ...

Smithville is D5 with a population of 1300.

I don't recall suggesting to 'trash' the system. In fact my expectation would be improvement. The elimination of guideline inequities or at very least the tightening of the over use of those very inequities by some privates. Guidelines governing institutions in direct competition should be indentic. Again pointing out an exception does not negate the existence of divergent guidelines.

fish82;585121 wrote:... And FYI...your posting style doesn't make you seem nearly as intelligent as you think it does. Just sayin.

That's pretty good. Ok what am I thinking now... Did you say ... the 50ghz separation of optical transmission frequencies in the CCM IR during the mux/demux stage in 7100 nano shelf and the use of dispersion compensation to maintain signal strength. If so you're really good.

Here I was under the impression that my gray matter was simply spewing sarcasm. I however will attempt to be less of an ass.

skank;581092 wrote:Publics have met privates in the DI state semi finals 43 times:

Moeller beats
Findlay '75
Whitmer '79
Upper Arlington '80
Upper Arlington '81
Gahanna Lincoln '82
Troy '85
Lima '89
Hilliard '93
Upper Arlington '97

Ignatius beatsWhitmer '88
Massillon '89
Massillon '91
Fitch '92
McKinley '94
Boardman '95
McKinley '96
Pickerington '99
Massillon '01
Hoover '08

OthersSt Ed beats Newark '75
Parma Padua beats Massillon '79
Toledo St. Francis beats Centerville '84
St. Edward beats Fitch '86
St. X beats Piqua '92
St. X beats Upper Arlington '98
St. X beats Dublin Coffman '01
Elder beats Findlay '02
Elder beats Dublin Scioto '03
St. X beats Hilliard Davidson '05
St. X beats Dublin Coffman '07
Elder beats Pick. Central '08
St Edward beats Tol. Whitmer '10

And Publics have won a scant 11 times
Warren beats Moeller '74
Gahanna Lincoln beats St. Edward '76
McKinley beats St. Joe '77
McKinley beats St. Joe '81
Ak. Garfield beats Mentor Lake Cath. '83
McKinley beats St. Joe '85
Lima Sr. beats Elder '96
McKinley beats Ignatius '97
McKinley beats Ignatius '98
Massillon beats St. Edward '05
Hilliard Davidson beats Elder '09

With one school, Canton McKinley winning almost half of them.

That is a .744 winning pct.

Now, since 1985, the Privates hold a 23-5 edge, (.821 winning pct).

Winners in head to head games have been


PrivatesMoeller
St. Edward
Parma Padua
Tol. St. Francis
Ignatius
St. Xavier
Elder

PublicsWarren G. Harding
Gahanna Lincoln
Canton McKinley
Akron Garfield
Lima. Sr.
Massillon
Hilliard Davidson

Seven privates
Seven publics

Despite overwhelming numbers in favor of the publics as far as participation goes.

Those stats prove multipliers don't solve the "problem". Those schools are all already D1. Where are they going to go, a super division?

Allegations that smaller privates in larger cities or suburbs have an advantage over small town publics are way off the mark. Alter competes for students with Oakwood, Fairmont, Bellbrook, Centerville, Springboro, West Carrollton and Miamisburg. All of those schools are academically competitive (some certainly more than others). Except Oakwood, they're all larger schools than Alter. Alter can only find 200 students from Kettering, compared to Fairmont's 2800 plus, so Alter wouldn't exist without going beyond the artificlal taxing districts drawn by governments.

NO ONE stages 40 yard dashes of eighth graders before making admission decisions to Alter, and how can you tell if an eighth grader is going to pan out as a senior? NO ONE at Alter, coach or fan, combs the area looking for the best football players to lasso and bring to Alter. Alter folks don't go to public school grade school games, talking to players or parents about sending their kids to Alter. In fact, Wee Elks, Wee Firebirds, Wee Eagles, etc. are all tied to their public high school programs, and a lot of Alter kids come from those supposedly independent community sports programs for age-group kids at below high school ages. All of those kids are heavily recruited to go to the public schools. A.J. Hawk, Mike Nugent and Nick Mangold were all on the same Wee Elks team at one time. Hawk and Nugent went to Centerville and Mangold went to Alter. Why? Because Mom and Dad Mangold were Catholic. Dad even went to Carroll (Catholic school). Hawk and Nugent didn't have those ties. Nobody tried to get Hawk or Nugent to Alter.

Finally, EVERY STUDENT at public schools has a FULL SCHOLARSHIP.

So tell me again how it's unfair that Alter, which charges over $8,000 a year to attend, can get enough superstars to attend when the public schools around it are very good and FREE? Compare that to Clinton Massie, a FREE public school in a small town with NO COMPETITION, has a disadvantage over Alter.

You guys are really Martians, aren't you? You're certainly not living in a world that has any connection to reality.

skank;585545 wrote:Context my friend....Context.

Yes, context, so use it to your advantage instead of letting others do it and then complain about it. When is the last time you've see a public school market their school? Not really ever except for those public schools that people claim recruit.

Mentality of a public school: We don't need to market our school because we're going to get who we get that lives in our district instead of trying to get some bordering students from open enrollment. We'll stay open and be ok whether we drop 50 students or not

Mentality of a private school: We need to market our school to get as many students as we can because we need to have money to keep our doors open! If we lose 10-15 more students we might have to cut some teaching positions or raise tuition.

aged jock;585977 wrote:Allegations that smaller privates in larger cities or suburbs have an advantage over small town publics are way off the mark. Alter competes for students with Oakwood, Fairmont, Bellbrook, Centerville, Springboro, West Carrollton and Miamisburg. All of those schools are academically competitive (some certainly more than others). Except Oakwood, they're all larger schools than Alter. Alter can only find 200 students from Kettering, compared to Fairmont's 2800 plus, so Alter wouldn't exist without going beyond the artificlal taxing districts drawn by governments.

NO ONE stages 40 yard dashes of eighth graders before making admission decisions to Alter, and how can you tell if an eighth grader is going to pan out as a senior? NO ONE at Alter, coach or fan, combs the area looking for the best football players to lasso and bring to Alter. Alter folks don't go to public school grade school games, talking to players or parents about sending their kids to Alter. In fact, Wee Elks, Wee Firebirds, Wee Eagles, etc. are all tied to their public high school programs, and a lot of Alter kids come from those supposedly independent community sports programs for age-group kids at below high school ages. All of those kids are heavily recruited to go to the public schools. A.J. Hawk, Mike Nugent and Nick Mangold were all on the same Wee Elks team at one time. Hawk and Nugent went to Centerville and Mangold went to Alter. Why? Because Mom and Dad Mangold were Catholic. Dad even went to Carroll (Catholic school). Hawk and Nugent didn't have those ties. Nobody tried to get Hawk or Nugent to Alter.

Finally, EVERY STUDENT at public schools has a FULL SCHOLARSHIP.

So tell me again how it's unfair that Alter, which charges over $8,000 a year to attend, can get enough superstars to attend when the public schools around it are very good and FREE? Compare that to Clinton Massie, a FREE public school in a small town with NO COMPETITION, has a disadvantage over Alter.

You guys are really Martians, aren't you? You're certainly not living in a world that has any connection to reality.

AWESOME points, all. - thanks for articulating so well my own thoughts.

tsst_fballfan;585583 wrote:Smithville is D5 with a population of 1300.

I don't recall suggesting to 'trash' the system. In fact my expectation would be improvement. The elimination of guideline inequities or at very least the tightening of the over use of those very inequities by some privates. Guidelines governing institutions in direct competition should be indentic. Again pointing out an exception does not negate the existence of divergent guidelines.

By "trash" the system, I was referring to eliminating our status as having one of the most respected playoff systems in the country.

What specific changes in the guidelines would you make?

fish82;586105 wrote:By "trash" the system, I was referring to eliminating our status as having one of the most respected playoff systems in the country.

What specific changes in the guidelines would you make?

ONE set of guidelines followed by ALL member schools.

HSFootball#1Fan;585447 wrote:I haven't read through the 20+ pages yet but I did see this...



Why is this not a valid argument for private schools? Students that have learning, behavioral issues, etc. will not make it at some of these private schools because of lack of resources and because the administration know that they will not make. Why waste a year of their high school? If you want to get even deeper into it, fix your public school system! Stop letting kids "run" the school. The problem with the public school system is they have a "right" to be there. But in all actuality, they have no right to interfere with another student's learning. They should be able to get rid of them. That doesn't mean that all public schools are bad that means look how much better they could be.

Also, I have no idea about this but I thought I read somewhere that students with severe disabilities that are not able to participate in sports are not counted towards the OHSAA enrollment? I could be entirely wrong on this.



You absolutely can go to them... All schools, public or private are allowed to mass market what they have to offer. Mass marketing refers to not targeting a specific student.

OHSAA Bylaw 4-9-3
All member high schools are permitted to mass market their entire high school program and all of its elements for the purpose of informing and recruiting students.

A little something called IDEA PL-94-142! lol If a student is identified and has an IEP, they cannot be suspended for more than 10 days, and trying to expel them is more difficult than sending a man to the moon!~ The law keeps publics from doing what privates do openly!

What's interesting, however, is that if a student is expelled from a private school...or any school for that matter, the student's assigned public school district does NOT have to accept them if they choose to enroll.

aged jock;585977 wrote:...

Finally, EVERY STUDENT at public schools has a FULL SCHOLARSHIP.

...

This is an absolutely wonderful observation that needs to be emphasized more and not ever taken for granted.

Con_Alma;586156 wrote:This is an absolutely wonderful observation that needs to be emphasized more and not ever taken for granted.

And EVERY private school student receives the exact same, they just CHOOSE not to use it.

tsst_fballfan;586180 wrote:And EVERY private school student receives the exact same, they just CHOOSE not to use it.

No doubt about it. The point being that all kids have it available and we should not ever take for granted the privilege it truly is.

tsst_fballfan;586180 wrote:And EVERY private school student receives the exact same, they just CHOOSE not to use it.

So let me see if I have this right. If a student makes a perfectly legal, logical choice and his parents pay his tuition in addition to the taxes that pay for the public school to be available, and at the private school he FINDS SUCCESS, he should be PUNISHED! I love this country!

aged jock;586212 wrote:So let me see if I have this right. If a student makes a perfectly legal, logical choice and his parents pay his tuition in addition to the taxes that pay for the public school to be available, and at the private school he FINDS SUCCESS, he should be PUNISHED! I love this country!

Feeble strawmanish attempt.

[sarcasm font]Yes I have been ever so insistent on the castigation of students! It has been my entire curative point.[/sarcasm font]

[nonsarcasm]I have never advocated punishing any kid on this thread. Quite the contrary I hold most, if not all, blameless.[/nonsarcasm]

aged jock;585977 wrote:Allegations that smaller privates in larger cities or suburbs have an advantage over small town publics are way off the mark. Alter competes for students with Oakwood, Fairmont, Bellbrook, Centerville, Springboro, West Carrollton and Miamisburg. All of those schools are academically competitive (some certainly more than others). Except Oakwood, they're all larger schools than Alter. Alter can only find 200 students from Kettering, compared to Fairmont's 2800 plus, so Alter wouldn't exist without going beyond the artificlal taxing districts drawn by governments. ...

Thanks for the assist in proving my point. A smaller private that draws from a large area that goes beyond any relative boundries that is consistently in the playoffs. The exact over use of the lack of guidelines I have been discussing for this entire thread. Well done. Bravo!

aged jock;585977 wrote:... NO ONE stages 40 yard dashes of eighth graders before making admission decisions to Alter, and how can you tell if an eighth grader is going to pan out as a senior? NO ONE at Alter, coach or fan, combs the area looking for the best football players to lasso and bring to Alter. Alter folks don't go to public school grade school games, talking to players or parents about sending their kids to Alter. In fact, Wee Elks, Wee Firebirds, Wee Eagles, etc. are all tied to their public high school programs, and a lot of Alter kids come from those supposedly independent community sports programs for age-group kids at below high school ages. All of those kids are heavily recruited to go to the public schools. A.J. Hawk, Mike Nugent and Nick Mangold were all on the same Wee Elks team at one time. Hawk and Nugent went to Centerville and Mangold went to Alter. Why? Because Mom and Dad Mangold were Catholic. Dad even went to Carroll (Catholic school). Hawk and Nugent didn't have those ties. Nobody tried to get Hawk or Nugent to Alter.

Finally, EVERY STUDENT at public schools has a FULL SCHOLARSHIP.

So tell me again how it's unfair that Alter, which charges over $8,000 a year to attend, can get enough superstars to attend when the public schools around it are very good and FREE? Compare that to Clinton Massie, a FREE public school in a small town with NO COMPETITION, has a disadvantage over Alter.

You guys are really Martians, aren't you? You're certainly not living in a world that has any connection to reality.

Really?!?! You obviously know nothing about Alter! :roflmao:

tsst_fballfan;586112 wrote:ONE set of guidelines followed by ALL member schools.

What would those guidelines be? How would you make the boundaries the same or similar?

tsst_fballfan;586228 wrote:Thanks for the assist in proving my point. A smaller private that draws from a large area that goes beyond any relative boundries that is consistently in the playoffs. The exact over use of the lack of guidelines I have been discussing for this entire thread. Well done. Bravo!

1. Lots of publics are "consistently in the playoffs." No assist to your point whatsoever.

B. Do you have a list of the origin of the players on Alter's roster to make this assumption of "over use?"

tsst_fballfan;586228 wrote:Really?!?! You obviously know nothing about Alter! :roflmao:

Specific examples of them engaging in this behavior please...otherwise....fail.

fish82;586264 wrote:What would those guidelines be? How would you make the boundaries the same or similar?

Sykotyk had a good idea earlier about utilizing the district in which the private school physically resides. He also had a good idea on dealing with students acquired outside of said district.

fish82;586264 wrote:1. Lots of publics are "consistently in the playoffs." No assist to your point whatsoever.

B. Do you have a list of the origin of the players on Alter's roster to make this assumption of "over use?"

aged openly admits Alter would not even exist without using a large area outside of the district of Kettering. Exactly my point of contention in this thread. Small schools in larger areas using that larger area to attain students. An area much much larger than the average district for a school that size. Maybe the publics should be the one to change. Allow them to turn away whomever they wish. Remove all district boundaries for them. Allow them to play to the size of the student body they pick and choose and not one dictated to them by the state. Allow them to compete academically with students they pick and choose and not those dictated to them by the state.

fish82;586264 wrote:Specific examples of them engaging in this behavior please...otherwise....fail.

Yeah right I am going to specifically name kids for your piece of mind on a website. Very recent and very obvious!

tsst_fballfan;586287 wrote:Sykotyk had a good idea earlier about utilizing the district in which the private school physically resides. He also had a good idea on dealing with students acquired outside of said district.

That idea might work for the urban privates, but the rural ones would be forced to close for sure. Zanesville Rosecrans/Tusky Catholic for example would not attract enough bodies to keep afloat, IMO. Even the smaller urban schools like CHCA would be hard pressed to stay open if they could only take kids from Mason City Schools.

tsst_fballfan;586287 wrote: aged openly admits Alter would not even exist without using a large area outside of the district of Kettering. Exactly my point of contention in this thread. Small schools in larger areas using that larger area to attain students. An area much much larger than the average district for a school that size. Maybe the publics should be the one to change. Allow them to turn away whomever they wish. Remove all district boundaries for them. Allow them to play to the size of the student body they pick and choose and not one dictated to them by the state. Allow them to compete academically with students they pick and choose and not those dictated to them by the state.

First, while Alter's "draw" area is outside the Kettering district, it isn't that large, geographically speaking. And aged is exagerating...Alter would exist just fine with 200 students. And more than likely, they'd still win their share of football games.

If the publics change as you suggest, then all schools would have to receive the same state funding, assuming the playing field was to be "level." I doubt that would work...unless every school in the state started charging tuition.

tsst_fballfan;586287 wrote: Yeah right I am going to specifically name kids for your piece of mind on a website. Very recent and very obvious!

Yeah...that's what I thought. :rolleyes: