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M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Oct 13, 2010 3:40 PM
"I would assume it was multiple choice, BTW. "

That is an excellent point, I don't have any empirical evidence, but I'm convinced the key to passing/doing well on standardized as tests is immediately identifying the wrong answers, and choosing (if not solving) the correct answer after eliminating the obvious wrong answers. For example, if GBlock's query was put in multiple choice form, you'd have have options of (1) 200 gallons), (2) 20 gallons, (3) 19 gallons and (4) 1 gallon. Obviously 1 and 4 are incorrect, so even if you don't do the math you have a 50/50 chance of guessing the correct answer.

FFT can add his comment, but in my experience the Multi-State Bar Exam, which is multiple choice, was the same way (although I don't recall if there were 4 or 5 choices), many of the solution choices were absurd on their face, so if you can identify the wrong answers - you drastically improve your chances of selecting the right answer, even if you really aren't sure about the correct answer.
Oct 13, 2010 3:40pm
F

fan_from_texas

Senior Member

2,693 posts
Oct 13, 2010 3:45 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;518489 wrote:That is an excellent point, I don't have any empirical evidence, but I'm convinced the key to passing/doing well on standardized as tests is immediately identifying the wrong answers, and choosing (if not solving) the correct answer after eliminating the obvious wrong answers.
Mrs. FFT teachers college psych classes. Part of her tests are multiple choice, yet she has students who consistently score worse than chance on multiple choice exams. It's amazing to me how someone can score 13% on a 50-question section where each question had four choices. That's not bad test-taking--that's just being stupid.
Oct 13, 2010 3:45pm
G

Gblock

Oct 13, 2010 3:46 PM
not multiple choice

nice job your smarter than 8th graders...

ill try some harder ones tomorrow when i figure out how to post graphics....

our students mainly struggled with this problem i think because of the multiple steps....they would make a mistake on one of the steps or often leave one out also the most common answer was 18.4 or some number close to 19 but too low....others would put 1.9 or 1.84 showing a lack of understanding of the decimal system even after showing competence at much of the knowledge this problem requires...

im actually sure that most here would have passed the test at age 18, but now after many years of not using this info probably would struggle...when's the last time you used a coordinate plane or solved a quadratic equation....either way im not sure that these questions are the minimum that should make you "proficient" since for 90 percent of the population this knowledge is useless....maybe other countries are doing a better job of teaching things that students can actually use???? idk good conversation though i like talking education.
Oct 13, 2010 3:46pm
thedynasty1998's avatar

thedynasty1998

Senior Member

6,844 posts
Oct 13, 2010 3:54 PM
Gblock;518502 wrote:not multiple choice

What standardized test did this come from that isn't multiple choice?
Oct 13, 2010 3:54pm
FatHobbit's avatar

FatHobbit

Senior Member

8,651 posts
Oct 13, 2010 3:58 PM
fan_from_texas;518499 wrote:Mrs. FFT teachers college psych classes. Part of her tests are multiple choice, yet she has students who consistently score worse than chance on multiple choice exams. It's amazing to me how someone can score 13% on a 50-question section where each question had four choices. That's not bad test-taking--that's just being stupid.

LOL. Maybe they are just really unlucky?
Oct 13, 2010 3:58pm
like_that's avatar

like_that

1st Team All-PWN

26,625 posts
Oct 13, 2010 3:59 PM
I lived with 3 education majors for two years. Based off their intelligence and the amount of actual hard/difficult work they had to put in for school(hardly any at all) I would say they are paid just enough.
Oct 13, 2010 3:59pm
G

Gblock

Oct 13, 2010 4:13 PM
thedynasty1998;518513 wrote:What standardized test did this come from that isn't multiple choice?

this was from Ohio achievement test 2005 8th grade.....it has both multiple choice(1pt) as well as short answer(2pt) and extended response (4pts) this was a 4 pt question. you can recieve partial credit on the non multiple choice questions. the tests usually have 45 questions 5 of which are for research purposes and aren't counted. you basically need to get between 18-25 questons right to pass depending on the type of questions you get right.
Oct 13, 2010 4:13pm
thedynasty1998's avatar

thedynasty1998

Senior Member

6,844 posts
Oct 13, 2010 4:33 PM
Gblock;518531 wrote:this was from Ohio achievement test 2005 8th grade.....it has both multiple choice(1pt) as well as short answer(2pt) and extended response (4pts) this was a 4 pt question. you can recieve partial credit on the non multiple choice questions. the tests usually have 45 questions 5 of which are for research purposes and aren't counted. you basically need to get between 18-25 questons right to pass depending on the type of questions you get right.

I have a hard time buying that the example given was a 4 point question for extended response. So what, if someone drew a wall they get partial credit? Just partial credit on showing their work? Or is someone just puts the correct answer do they only get partial credit because it doesn't show how they got there?
Oct 13, 2010 4:33pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Oct 13, 2010 4:39 PM
thedynasty1998;518543 wrote:I have a hard time buying that the example given was a 4 point question for extended response. So what, if someone drew a wall they get partial credit? Just partial credit on showing their work? Or is someone just puts the correct answer do they only get partial credit because it doesn't show how they got there?

Some kids are smarter than others, so some kids can do that problem in their head. For other kids, it may take them FOREVER to do that question, b/c they just can't figure out the process. Just because YOU (or any of you others) can look at it and "get it," that does not mean that the rest of the 8th graders in the state can. There are MANY 8th graders that would look at that question and be completely stumped.

So, the partial credit... We don't just want to teach getting the "right answer," but you teach the process. It is a way to check to see where you made a mistake. When you can look at, and evaluate, the entire process, it makes it easier to assess where the student got the question wrong. If they got the entire process right, but they were off by one number, then yes, I am a proponent of them getting partial credit for the correct process.

In sports (most guys can understand dem sports analogies) you don't just teach winning. "Now, go out there and win, win, win!" No, you teach HOW! You teach the fundamentals, which hopefully lead to the winning (along with a whole bunch of other stuff). Can't jump to results without putting in the work.
Oct 13, 2010 4:39pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Oct 13, 2010 4:44 PM
thedynasty1998;518543 wrote:I have a hard time buying that the example given was a 4 point question for extended response.

And why would he lie to you? He is a professional, and is giving you an example of his profession, and you are yet dogging him for something that he didn't create? This response just makes you sound pompous.
Oct 13, 2010 4:44pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Oct 13, 2010 4:45 PM
Son of a bitch, I hate this stupid avatar!
Oct 13, 2010 4:45pm
thedynasty1998's avatar

thedynasty1998

Senior Member

6,844 posts
Oct 13, 2010 4:45 PM
Where did that whole thing translate into sports? You had a 3 step math problem that you are saying a student can get anywhere from 0-4 points on, I just don't buy it.

I understand many 8th graders being stumped by that, and that's fine. That example was used as one of the "more difficult" questions so it is probably used more as a measuring stick amongst the kids that did pass, I would assume.
Oct 13, 2010 4:45pm
thedynasty1998's avatar

thedynasty1998

Senior Member

6,844 posts
Oct 13, 2010 4:46 PM
ernest_t_bass;518557 wrote:And why would he lie to you? He is a professional, and is giving you an example of his profession, and you are yet dogging him for something that he didn't create? This response just makes you sound pompous.

That's fine. I just have a hard time believing that wouldn't be a multiple choice question. Plus, when I post a link to school ratings and he replies "lol" I'm supposed to just take him at his word? I want a link.
Oct 13, 2010 4:46pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Oct 13, 2010 4:48 PM
thedynasty1998;518561 wrote:Where did that whole thing translate into sports? You had a 3 step math problem that you are saying a student can get anywhere from 0-4 points on, I just don't buy it.

I understand many 8th graders being stumped by that, and that's fine. That example was used as one of the "more difficult" questions so it is probably used more as a measuring stick amongst the kids that did pass, I would assume.

OK, but HE DOESN'T WRITE THE TESTS! He just administers them!
Oct 13, 2010 4:48pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Oct 13, 2010 4:52 PM
thedynasty1998;518566 wrote:That's fine. I just have a hard time believing that wouldn't be a multiple choice question. Plus, when I post a link to school ratings and he replies "lol" I'm supposed to just take him at his word? I want a link.

I think the biggest issue that most educators have with these "findings" (backed by data or not) is that most of these studies don't take into consideration the entire process. (See my analogy of Dynastasia above). There are many, many, many nations out there that only test (hell, only school) the brightest of individuals. We school EVERYONE, regardless of poverty, IEP's, home life, etc. We spend so much, maybe TOO MUCH, time on these special needs situations... our gifted programs/students are actually the ones paying the price b/c of equality in education. We set this up as a nation, and then we criticize it.
Oct 13, 2010 4:52pm
P

Prescott

Senior Member

2,569 posts
Oct 13, 2010 5:16 PM
Eliminate the unions. Let each district and each teacher negotiate the appropriate salary.
Oct 13, 2010 5:16pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Oct 13, 2010 5:39 PM
Prescott;518591 wrote:Eliminate the unions. Let each district and each teacher negotiate the appropriate salary.

I will not disagree with the elimination of the unions at the higher level, where lobbyists use my hard earned money to advance themselves.
Oct 13, 2010 5:39pm
G

Gblock

Oct 13, 2010 5:51 PM
try this...

http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/Templates/Pages/ODE/ODEDetail.aspx?page=3&TopicRelationID=1070&ContentID=7479&Content=91787


this is the Ohio dept of ed website they release old test questions each year...this was from the 8th grade math test 2005...i picked it cause i used this in my class last year several times throughout the year for practice......you get partial credit as graded by some state hired evaluator...i think they pay 11.00 bucks an hour or so...im not sure what the criteria is to get this job but i dont think its too stringent this might be a 2pt question i honestly dont remember for sure i was spitballing off the top of my head but i can post some 4pt questions tomorrow if its only a 2
Oct 13, 2010 5:51pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Oct 13, 2010 6:00 PM
"Hired," not "highered."

Come on, MAN! :)
Oct 13, 2010 6:00pm
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Oct 13, 2010 6:00 PM
gblock, thanks for the link. I reviewed the math portion, aside from someone having a brain freeze or otherwise feeling rushed, I can't imagine a competent 8th grader not getting 100% correct.
Oct 13, 2010 6:00pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Oct 13, 2010 6:02 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;518624 wrote:gblock, thanks for the link. I reviewed the math portion, aside from someone having a brain freeze or otherwise feeling rushed, I can't imagine a competent 8th grader not getting 100% correct.

I say this with a saddened heart (and I'm being sincere) ... You'd be surprised.
Oct 13, 2010 6:02pm
G

Gblock

Oct 13, 2010 6:05 PM
ernest_t_bass;518623 wrote:"Hired," not "highered."

Come on, MAN! :)
lol...
Oct 13, 2010 6:05pm
G

Gblock

Oct 13, 2010 6:07 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;518624 wrote:gblock, thanks for the link. I reviewed the math portion, aside from someone having a brain freeze or otherwise feeling rushed, I can't imagine a competent 8th grader not getting 100% correct.

yea well the school i just signed up to work at this year...passed 11 percent last year in math and science....1 out of 3 8th graders dropped out..
Oct 13, 2010 6:07pm
ernest_t_bass's avatar

ernest_t_bass

12th Son of the Lama

24,984 posts
Oct 13, 2010 6:08 PM
Gblock, where do you work? If you don't want to share publicly, then PM me. I'll do the same in return.
Oct 13, 2010 6:08pm
Glory Days's avatar

Glory Days

Senior Member

7,809 posts
Oct 13, 2010 7:52 PM
How this question should have read:
Gblock;518391 wrote:alot of the questions have graphics so its hard to post them you can print your own here:

www.ode.oh.us click on oaa/ogt practice test links....

here is a question that was mostly words...


question from 2005 test we used last year for practice that our students really struggled with in 8th grade:

A wooden fence was built around a construction site. The wall is 600 feet long and 8 feet high. Each 12 foot length of the fence has a 2 foot by 2 foot window cut into the wall so that people can watch the construction.

The city council asked the construction company to paint the side of the fence facing the street. A gallon of paint will cover approximately 250 square feet.

Determine how many Mexicans this wall will prevent from corssing the border....
Oct 13, 2010 7:52pm