Gblock;560587 wrote:Lawyers dont exactly have standard hours they are contracted to work though....so its a tough comparison. I'm sure some days you might work all night and on some days you probably have nothing to do...(just based on my brother who is an attorney)

Yes, that's absolutely true. It's really a tough comparison because teachers are quasi-white collar and quasi-blue collar, so their situation is somewhat unique.

White collar workers, in general, tend to work salaried positions and work outside standard hours based on whatever comes up.

Blue collar workers, in general, tend to work to a specific contract.

It gets difficult to figure out what to do with teachers--are they white collar or blue collar? Should they be treated like professionals (who don't work to a specific contract), or like skilled laborers (who do)? It's really a weird situation without an easy answer.

"Should they be treated like professionals (who don't work to a specific contract), or like skilled laborers (who do)? It's really a weird situation without an easy answer. "

The easiest answer is whether they belong to a union that will protect their jobs (although in my experience the teachers' union is union in name only - it more or less exists to benefit the union and its political favorites, not the teachers) if they engage in "civil disobedience" or otherwise refuse to act outside the contract.

If the "follow the union to the contract" is now the argument you teachers are making then, AGAIN, your salaries are MORE than fair and even above fair for working a 185 day a year job "as you are following your contract". You can't have it both ways, one minute saying you are "following your contact" and then the other way boasting about all this "extra time" you put in.

Furthermore, to add insult in injury to all of us taxpayers, each and every single one of my piers and/or friends have had to take pay cuts coupled with benefit reductions/losses due to the economy. Further, basically all workers are taking on EXTRA responsibilities and/or job duties to make up for all their fellow employees who have been laid off, thus making more demands/stress on everyone without getting any raises. They are doing this to simply hold onto their jobs and being thankful. For all of the teacher's unions not willing to also be doing so and then having the audacity to cry how underpaid and disrespected they are at taxpayer's expense is shameful.

thedynasty1998;560524 wrote:SWCS district had an article this morning in the Dispatch about how they are refusing to do anything outside of what their contract states, such as tutoring or helping in volunteer activities.

Where do teachers get the balls to do something like this? They claim they don't get paid for these activities, therefore don't have to do it. Guess what, the rest of American gets paid a salary and they do whatever it takes to get the job done. It's shit like this that makes teachers look bad. If you want to renegotiate your contract, fine. But don't say that tutoring isn't in your contract therefore you are refusing to do it.

I thought they were in the business of educating?

This is a very stupid, uneducated post. The "rest of American" does not get paid a salary either.

Scarlet_Buckeye;560626 wrote:If the "follow the union to the contract" is now the argument you teachers are making then, AGAIN, your salaries are MORE than fair and even above fair for working a 185 day a year job "as you are following your contract". You can't have it both ways, one minute saying you are "following your contact" and then the other way boasting about all this "extra time" you put in.

Furthermore, to add insult in injury to all of us taxpayers, each and every single one of my piers and/or friends have had to take pay cuts coupled with benefit reductions/losses due to the economy. Further, basically all workers are taking on EXTRA responsibilities and/or job duties to make up for all their fellow employees who have been laid off, thus making more demands/stress on everyone without getting any raises. They are doing this to simply hold onto their jobs and being thankful. For all of the teacher's unions not willing to also be doing so and then having the audacity to cry how underpaid and disrespected they are at taxpayer's expense is shameful.

every one of your friends has not taken a pay cut its simply a true statement....ALL WORKERS ARE NOT TAKING ON EXTRA DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES EITHER.....its simply not true it might sound good but its not true. ALSO TEACHERS ARE TAXPAYERS TOO!

wkfan;560523 wrote:And those who do not put in the amount of time required to get the complete and total job done correctly are generally out of a job within a couple of years.

Sounds kinda like what you people call a 'real job' or what happens when a school is run like a business.

Not true. There are many, many teachers who put nothing more into it than required. They don't get fired. They can't really get fired. They make the same pay.

My actual point was that if a teacher "chooses" to put in more time than required, that doesn't make the title definition change. No more than it does for me at my 40 hour/wk job.

fan_from_texas;560574 wrote:When my employer wants me to do something, I do it.

Which is the general sentiment of most teachers. However, if you felt your employer was taking advantage of you, or making bank off your hard work, yet you reaped no benefits, you'd probably approach your employer.

ernest_t_bass;560697 wrote:Which is the general sentiment of most teachers. However, if you felt your employer was taking advantage of you, or making bank off your hard work, yet you reaped no benefits, you'd probably approach your employer.

Without question.

Gblock;560680 wrote:every one of your friends has not taken a pay cut its simply a true statement....ALL WORKERS ARE NOT TAKING ON EXTRA DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES EITHER.....its simply not true it might sound good but its not true. ALSO TEACHERS ARE TAXPAYERS TOO!

Every person I know that works in the private sector has either lost their job, taken a pay cut or had a flat compensation since January '09.

My wife: company halved their bonuses, resulting in about a 15% reduction in comp - that is the same for all of her co-workers.
Step-Father in law - President of a subsidiary of Honeywell - 10% paycut across the board for execs.
Father in law - Mortgage banker, lost his job
Friend at Johnson Controls - 10% pay cut
Law firm where I worked - 10-15% pay cut based on seniority, partners had significantly reduced draws.
Friend that teaches at private school - stagnant salary
Friend that is/was a director in international RE finance at Deutsche Bank - lost his job
Friend that is/was an analyst at BOA - lost his job, got another one and lost that one.
Friend that was IT at Credit Suisse - lost his job
Friends that are partners in law firms throughout the U.S. - reduced draws (some more significant than others).

In short, the only folks I know that had an increase in comp in the last two years are government workers. Everyone else is feeling some pain - the economy simply blows.

ernest_t_bass;560697 wrote:Which is the general sentiment of most teachers. However, if you felt your employer was taking advantage of you, or making bank off your hard work, yet you reaped no benefits, you'd probably approach your employer.

And you'd get fired.

fan_from_texas;560574 wrote:I'm just relating this to say that plenty of other professions are required to do things that aren't entirely within their contract description, or occur outside of standard business hours, and that's just part of the deal.

See, that's the thing... it's not "part of the deal." To you, to me, to CC... yes, that IS part of the "deal," but not "technically." You do those things b/c you take pride in your job and, to YOU, that IS what you signed up for. If I choose to stay past my contract hours, it is because I see it as something I DID sign up to do. If I choose to leave when my CONTRACTUAL TERMS state I can leave, I don't see an issue with that whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Gblock
every one of your friends has not taken a pay cut its simply a true statement....ALL WORKERS ARE NOT TAKING ON EXTRA DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES EITHER.....its simply not true it might sound good but its not true. ALSO TEACHERS ARE TAXPAYERS TOO!

Gblock -- You are simply not living in the real world if you believe that. You must be living in the "teacher entitlement fantasy world". I stand by my statement that my piers have all taken pay cuts and/or benefit cuts.

It's an "employer's market" right now, NOT an "employee's market". Employer's have the upper hand becuase they know if you don't want to suck it up and take on extra job responsiblities and work extra hours while taking a pay cut and not getting a raise that that's fine because they can cut you lose and there are many other people out there willing to take your job due to the high unemployment.

Manhattan Buckeye;560702 wrote:Every person I know that works in the private sector has either lost their job, taken a pay cut or had a flat compensation since January '09.

My wife: company halved their bonuses, resulting in about a 15% reduction in comp - that is the same for all of her co-workers.
Step-Father in law - President of a subsidiary of Honeywell - 10% paycut across the board for execs.
Father in law - Mortgage banker, lost his job
Friend at Johnson Controls - 10% pay cut
Law firm where I worked - 10-15% pay cut based on seniority, partners had significantly reduced draws.
Friend that teaches at private school - stagnant salary
Friend that is/was a director in international RE finance at Deutsche Bank - lost his job
Friend that is/was an analyst at BOA - lost his job, got another one and lost that one.
Friend that was IT at Credit Suisse - lost his job
Friends that are partners in law firms throughout the U.S. - reduced draws (some more significant than others).

In short, the only folks I know that had an increase in comp in the last two years are government workers. Everyone else is feeling some pain - the economy simply blows.

while i agree in general with your point...to say everyone is not true...do you only know ten people? and a 10% pay cut of probably a large or inflated salary to begin with doesnt make me want to take a pay cut

i have friends who are lawyers and and accountants and their salaries are climbing as well as my friends who are in banking industries and insurance...i also have friends who were car salesmen and other types of sales and friends who simply had their position eliminated. However i dont think that makes me feel like i should take a pay cut or feel bad. all jobs have advantages and disadvantages. I knew when i took my job i would never have very much money and would never be rich. I also factored in the fact that i knew if i did my job well it would provide very stable employment. i dont apologize for it and dont feel bad. no one was worried about me when i was making 25000 dollars and my friend was making 93000 doing mortgage refi for chase bank and he didnt even graduate high school. so now the economy is bad and he no longer works for them i should have to take a pay cut?

Scarlet_Buckeye;560709 wrote:Originally Posted by Gblock
every one of your friends has not taken a pay cut its simply a true statement....ALL WORKERS ARE NOT TAKING ON EXTRA DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES EITHER.....its simply not true it might sound good but its not true. ALSO TEACHERS ARE TAXPAYERS TOO!

Gblock -- You are simply not living in the real world if you believe that. You must be living in the "teacher entitlement fantasy world". I stand by my statement that my piers have all taken pay cuts and/or benefit cuts.

I can factually state that the company I work for didn't give raises to any of the empoyee's last year, and that affected probably 30 people.

WebFire;560682 wrote:Not true. There are many, many teachers who put nothing more into it than required. They don't get fired. They can't really get fired. They make the same pay.

My actual point was that if a teacher "chooses" to put in more time than required, that doesn't make the title definition change. No more than it does for me at my 40 hour/wk job.

This is absolutely true. Teachers have been and will continue to lose their jobs for not doing their job to the standards set forth by their school district. To think otherwise is, at best, naive.

'while i agree in general with your point...to say everyone is not true...do you only know ten people?"

No, I know 500 people at my old law firm, over 2,000 people (maybe not personally) at my wife's shop, and if you add up my friends from law school - between 50-75.

Point is, the economy is shit. My father, like you, was a teacher. He never once felt that his job was in jeopardy. He never once took a pay cut. He never once was asked to do something (like move around the world) that happens routinely in the private sector.

To get back to the point of the thread - no, teachers aren't paid too little. For what they do, for the benefits they get, for the schedule they can keep, they are compensated very well. My father has this thing called a "pension" that is unthinkabble for people working in the private sector. We pay into this thing called social security, which is a ponzi scheme....not to take this to the political forum.

First off, I live and work in Wyoming, so I am sure things will be a little different, but I'll give you the rundown on what our district pays and what our calender looks like.

CALENDER:
Teachers will start mid August, and school will end at the end of May. We are taking one week for Christmas, no spring break, and no fall break. Yes, there are a few 3 day weekends scattered throughout the year.

I also have a summer program which will run the entire month of June.

PAY SCALE:

I get about $7000 from coaching football, running concerts, pep band, jazz band, elementary music programs, quiz bowl, the summer program, and a couple of saturday schools.

Wyoming is in the top 5 in the nation for teacher pay. Most teachers, including myself, are non-union.
Our district starts teachers at $42,000, which is average for the state of Wyoming. Jackson starts teachers above $60,000 because of cost of living, Saratoga is the lowest at about $32,000. Most districts start teachers in the $40s or low $50s.

For every 15 college credits past a bachelors, there is a $550 pay raise, and there is an $800 pay raise each year for the first 20 years. As it stand right now, if you have a masters plus 30 credits (a doctorate, basically), and 20 years experience, you make about $75,000. Pretty fair, in my opinion.

My typical schedule looks like this:

7-8AM Jazz Band
8-3:15 normal school day
3:30-5:00 lessons, which I don't charge for and I get no extra compensation.

I also have various coaching duties, an evening rehearsal every wednesday, quiz bowl every other day at lunch, small items like bus duty, concerts, weekend trips with various school groups, etc.

Overall I would say I get paid fairly for what I do.

I have a friend who has a masters degree and works in a rural Ohio district, and his base salary is like $24,000. That is pathetic. A handfull of teachers may make the figures described in the article, but the vast majority do not.

wkfan;560717 wrote:This is absolutely true. Teachers have been and will continue to lose their jobs for not doing their job to the standards set forth by their school district. To think otherwise is, at best, naive.

And the standard is what is in the contract. How many days/hours are you required to work in your contract?

thedynasty1998;560713 wrote:I can factually state that the company I work for didn't give raises to any of the empoyee's last year, and that affected probably 30 people.

Not giving raises and taking a pay cut are two entirely differnt things.

I have not had a pay increase in 2 years. My teacher wife will not get a pay raise next year (2011-2012) as a part of a negotiated pay freeze that her teacher's union endorsed and the membership voted to approve.

WebFire;560723 wrote:And the standard is what is in the contract. How many days/hours are you required to work in your contract?

I do not have a contract.

Manhattan Buckeye;560703 wrote:And you'd get fired.

And that's not sad? Such a simple way to look at it.

wkfan;560727 wrote:I do not have a contract.

Sorry, you're wife's contract.

Manhattan Buckeye;560703 wrote:And you'd get fired.

Really?

WebFire;560733 wrote:Sorry, you're wife's contract.

I believe that her contract calls for 185 days of school starting at 7:50am and running through 3:45pm.

My standard work day is 7:30am to 5:00pm.

Rarely does she get home before I do.

WebFire;560735 wrote:Really?

No.